Rumored RF mount Cinema camera specifications [CR2]

[bgoyette]

There’s just too much about this that smells. RF camera with super 35 sensor. Smaller than 1dx3, but internal optical ND. (Tell me how that fits). No internal raw? Priced well below anything in the cinema lineup. 4 year old sensor? When Canon produces an RF cinema camera, it will be full frame. Let’s start there.

 

[Alam]

This move makes no sense to me. As I've stated before, the current line of RF lenses are not particularly good video lenses so there's no advantage to introducing a RF mount video camera unless it offers features not found on the EF mount cameras.

Super 35 sensor -- bad idea. the advantage of RF is superior full frame capabilities.
4K -- with the R5 shooting 8K and the BlackMagic shooting 6K this resolution is not compelling.

Of course, I don't have the benefit of knowing Canon's long term strategy.

Hey, I'm still shooter, but aren't you better off with Super 35 than Fullframe when shooting video?
My friends who shoot video said bokeh is hindrance in story telling with video

Or i get it wrong? Can anyone elaborate?

 

[Kit.]

Also, your impression on the resolution is kind mistaken as well. Everything is about codec and better color sampling/bit depth, which is something that Canon always had trouble with - this is one of the reasons why the C700 bunked so badly, not offering any sort of 4444 12bit internally.

What's the point of 4:4:4 from a non-oversampling Bayer sensor? You don't have so much color resolution there anyway.

 

[CarlMillerPhoto]

God I hope this is the C100 III. Hoping it has a built in flip-screen and the same removable handle, but the 2x LPEN6 and "smaller than 1DXIII" makes me think otherwise. Although I could see some sort of XC15 and C100 hybrid, where one battery goes in the grip (XC15) and the other goes in the back (C100)...hmm...that would make them hot swapable....

 

[PureClassA]

Could you please educate me on how SDI is better than HDMI? Sincere question.

12G-SDI (12 Gig SDI) basically transmits the same signal as HDMI 2.0, but it's what you find on professional cinema cameras for picture and sound transmission to an external monitor/recorder which (in my opinion) has the best upgrade over HDMI because it uses a locking BNC type connector. You plug the cable in, twist the metal ring, and it locks into the port. HDMI cables, especially mini and micro, tend to like to wiggle loose over time and fall out which would disconnect your recording...

 

[PureClassA]

Why do you think RF lenses are not good video lenses? Interesting!

My guess is it's the same as my complaint I have, but I would not call them "not good" video lenses. I would just prefer EF. The issue is FBW or Focus By Wire. You do NOT have true mechanical manual control over the focus ring. Which kinda sucks for filming because sometimes you really want/need manual focus pulls.

 

[WhatDoesMStandsFor]

What's the point of 4:4:4 from a non-oversampling Bayer sensor? You don't have so much color resolution there anyway.

Your assumption is wrong. The chroma subsampling is not impacted by resolution. If you shoot 4:4:4, the sensor does not encode a chroma subsample into the file, so in that way you have the highest chroma space for post production. That's what cameras such as Alexas do in ProRes, regarding of the resolution of the sensor.

The C700 can shoot 4:4:4 if you shoot externally, which is the hassle people have about a $35k camera. It's in no way a bad camera - but you need to have a Codex recorder with its media cards, which put around $20k on top of the camera. You start to get inside Alexa Mini territory (at least used). If you go to 2K, you have a helluva camera that can shoot 2K 4:4:4:4 12bit in ProRes, which is awesome - but again, you kind can do that with the C300 Mk II by shooting 2K 4:4:4 12bit XF-AVC.

The newer Cinema EOS cameras (C300 Mark III and C500 Mark II) can shoot 4:2:2 10 bit (which is the intermediate codec) or Cinema RAW Light. There's no chroma subsampling in RAW format and that's one of the reasons why these cameras were received extremely well by the market: it's cheaper and it offers a more robust chroma subsampling format depending on your needs.

So, in other words, if you get an Alexa Mini and shoot 4K with ProRes 4:4:4:4 from its 3.2K sensor and a C700 and shoot 4K ProRes 4:2:2, the Alexa will get a better color rendition due to the camera not subsampling its chroma information, even though the camera is shooting from a smaller resolution imaging sensor.

On that same note, if you shoot 4K 4:2:2 from the C700 and compare to the Cinema RAW Light from the C200 converted into ProRes 4:4:4:4, the C200 will have more color information due to the CRL format not having any chroma subsampling at all from the get go, even though both cameras share the same sensor.

It's another story if you need to go through the trouble of shooting RAW and then encode into ProRes to have more color information than shooting directly in 4:2:2 10bit (which is more than enough for most web content deliveries).

Last but not least: The C700 sensor actually oversamples from 4.5K to 4K. It does not make a big difference but it does show a difference when comparing the internal 4K footage from the C700 and the C300 Mk II, per example, with the C300 Mk II looking soft (especially if you are trying to reframe it into a HD delivery).

 

[WhatDoesMStandsFor]

My guess is it's the same as my complaint I have, but I would not call them "not good" video lenses. I would just prefer EF. The issue is FBW or Focus By Wire. You do NOT have true mechanical manual control over the focus ring. Which kinda sucks for filming because sometimes you really want/need manual focus pulls.

I think the EOS R5 had something that actually managed to change the way the FCB works, giving more of a mechanical feel for RF lenses. I've seen it somewhere, but I don't remember exactly where.

 

[Stanly]

The closest Canon cameras to your list are probably the 1DX3 and R5. Maybe the R5 gets repackaged for less heat but you understand video cameras are low bit rate and low MP FF on video precisely because it is faster to readout and less heat. Also easier to stabilize.

That's true, but I'm fine with having to purchase two cameras. Let's say R5 + full frame RF cinema camera, or a7S III + a7R IV. But it's important for me to have a camera that works reliably for both videos and stills for those situations when it's not possible to have two. I'm fine with some compromise, and R5 would've been perfect solution and final excuse to invest in Canon RF glass ... if only heat situation was workable. By the way I am surprised how great rolling shutter is! Let's see if we hear something before a7S III ships. Not into buying from the first batch anyway – was burned too many times

Also, I am guessing if you want to get your message to Canon, emailing them directly will be more effective getting your wants heard than forum posts on this rumors site. The RF cameras are satisfying to quite a lot of us, but its good to make your requests in the right places if you are interested in the brand and RF system.

I doubt it is possible for Canon not to know about the market of hybrid shooters (or people needing a hybrid camera to be part of the kit) and how to build customer base on lenses ... should probably do that, even if it's going to be lost in the pile of e-mails

Cheers!

 

[PureClassA]

I think the EOS R5 had something that actually managed to change the way the FCB works, giving more of a mechanical feel for RF lenses. I've seen it somewhere, but I don't remember exactly where.

Well my RF24-70, while a fantastic lens in AF, has awful MF pulls on my EOS R. Very unreliable. And yes, with the MF selected on the glass

 

[WhatDoesMStandsFor]

Well my RF24-70, while a fantastic lens in AF, has awful MF pulls on my EOS R. Very unreliable. And yes, with the MF selected on the glass

No, it's a new function. It's not just the MF switch on the lens. I'll try to remember where I've saw this option and share here.

Edit:

Found it. It was on Undone's review:

Timestamp at 13:44

 

[PureClassA]

No, it's a new function. It's not just the MF switch on the lens. I'll try to remember where I've saw this option and share here.

Edit:

Found it. It was on Undone's review:

Timestamp at 13:44

PLEASE FIRMWARE THAT TO THE R for PETES SAKE. Not being able to operate with normal (proper) linear focus ring maneuvers really makes these RF lenses almost worthless for Manual pulls. That seems like that would be an easy FW fix.

 

[Deleted member 384473]

No, it's a new function. It's not just the MF switch on the lens. I'll try to remember where I've saw this option and share here.

Edit:

Found it. It was on Undone's review:

Timestamp at 13:44

The linear setting, right? I wonder how more accurate we can get with that. I want to try it!

 

[Kit.]

Your assumption is wrong. The chroma subsampling is not impacted by resolution. If you shoot 4:4:4, the sensor does not encode a chroma subsample into the file, so in that way you have the highest chroma space for post production.

Where does it get that 4:4:4 from in the first place, if there are only 2 green, 1 blue, and 1 red pixel per each 2x2 pixel block in the raw data?

You don't have this color resolution in the raw data unless your sensor is more than 4K or you use 3CCD or Foveon-like sensor. You can of course cook them into your output stream, but what would it give you, other that unnecessarily big data rates?

And why do you think C700 (non-FF) oversamples from 4.5K? According to B&H at least, it records 4K RAW.

 

[WhatDoesMStandsFor]

Where does it get that 4:4:4 from in the first place, if there are only 2 green, 1 blue, and 1 red pixel per each 2x2 pixel block in the raw data?

You don't have this color resolution in the raw data unless your sensor is more than 4K or you use 3CCD or Foveon-like sensor. You can of course cook them into your output stream, but what would it give you, other that unnecessarily big data rates?

That's exactly the issue with the C700. You can't record 4K 4:4:4 UNLESS you use the Codex, which grants you that.

And why do you think C700 (non-FF) oversamples from 4.5K? According to B&H at least, it records 4K RAW.

B&H is wrong to an extent. There's two models of C700 with S35 sensors: the conventional 4.5K rolling shutter and the 4K global shutter. From Canon press release back in 2016:

The EOS C700 and EOS C700 PL cameras feature a Super 35mm 4.5K sensor1 with wide dynamic range, and can be ideal for productions requiring 4K UHD TV or 4K DCI cinema deliverables. The EOS C700 GS PL features a Super 35mm 4K sensor with a global shutter to enable the distortion-free capture of subjects moving at high speeds.

The combination of the EOS C700 camera with the optional Codex CDX-36150 recorder allows for high-speed 4.5K RAW recording at up to 100FPS, 4K RAW at up to 120FPS, 4K ProRes at up to 60FPS, 2K ProRes at up to 240FPS and XF-AVC at up to 60FPS.

Source: https://www.dpreview.com/news/3995450001/canon-announces-new-flagship-eos-c700-cinema-camera (Canon USA's website still down)

 

[sanj]

12G-SDI (12 Gig SDI) basically transmits the same signal as HDMI 2.0, but it's what you find on professional cinema cameras for picture and sound transmission to an external monitor/recorder which (in my opinion) has the best upgrade over HDMI because it uses a locking BNC type connector. You plug the cable in, twist the metal ring, and it locks into the port. HDMI cables, especially mini and micro, tend to like to wiggle loose over time and fall out which would disconnect your recording...

I agree about them wiggle out. Yes! Frustrating. THANK YOU SIR

 

[gmail]

My guess is it's the same as my complaint I have, but I would not call them "not good" video lenses. I would just prefer EF. The issue is FBW or Focus By Wire. You do NOT have true mechanical manual control over the focus ring. Which kinda sucks for filming because sometimes you really want/need manual focus pulls.

With RF lenses you can select "linear" focus control when in is in manual mode. While it is still FBW the lens responds to hand (or motorized focus controller) input as precisely and smoothly as mechanical focus lenses.

 

[analoggrotto]

i'm on the list for a stormtrooper, and received my r5 on saturday. I don't konw how i'm going to explain this extra one to my wife. i haven't even told her i'm gonna buy the ST yet either....

Nice! That RED is doing this speaks volumes for Canon's RF lenses.

Do RED cameras compete directly with Canon's Cinema cameras?

 

[wanderer23]

Why do you think RF lenses are not good video lenses? Interesting!

my 2c -
Most stills lenses in general dont make ideal video lenses due to dififculty manual focusing. Except the older manual focus ones, and a few modern ones, are exceptions (for example sigma 18-35 has proper focus mechanism not fly-by-wire etc). Even the ones iwth manul focus wheels the throw is quite short usually.

 

[wanderer23]

Nice! That RED is doing this speaks volumes for Canon's RF lenses.

Do RED cameras compete directly with Canon's Cinema cameras?

I would say not really. At least based on market absorption seems RED is used more for full on filmmaking vs canons more for docuemntary/interviews and talking heads (but also some short films). hollywood basically shoots 100% arri or red.

Another example peter mckinnon uses a c500 to shoot himself talking to the camera, but uses either mirrorless ( or back before a RED) to shoot his cinematic sequences. But the komodo is likely to cross a few barriers.

but there's no rules, you can shoot anything for anything you want.:0 just my 2c