Sadly, the 6dm2 and 5div to be obsolete shortly

[privatebydesign]

Agree in that I wish the mods were more active...

No. No. No. The last thing we need is to have moderators acting as mind police. If you are so insecure in your choices that you can't handle a little brand criticism that's your problem. If the price of free discussion and debate is a little trolling, so be it.

When people make goofy statements about Canon being doomed or "sadly, the 6dm2 and 5div to be obsolete shortly" there is always a tide of people to refute their arguments. If you don't like the discussions, don't participate. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head forcing them to read these threads.

If anything, I'd much rather the moderators go after certain long-time participants who resort to constant sarcasm and sniping when challenged. But overall, I most prefer to have the moderators sit back and simply shut down foul, sexist and racist language and leave the debate to the participants.

This forum is crazy.

I assume you didn't just now figure that out.

The D850 is the camera I expected the 5D4 to be, at the 5D4's intro price, and everyone regresses into "but canon still leads the market", "the camera doesn't matter", or "here's a picture I took with my old 20D!" as if those statements are all mutually exclusive. Assuming the D850 doesn't have any major service issues (and come on, despite some recent misses Nikon is an incredibly solid brand) its a clear win for this segment/cycle.

No camera maker is going to live or die by one release, but as a 5D4 owner it definitely makes me wonder why Canon either a) could not or b) choose not to deliver 45mp@9fps. I love my 5D4 and would probably buy it again, even today, but it would seriously have made me think about switching systems. (Though probably not–I’m one of those crazies who thinks this is the last major release cycle for mirror box cameras and DPAF will likely continue to be a huge advantage for Canon)

Legitimate criticism. On the other hand, the D850 is one year newer, so it's understandable that Nikon, with the advantage of being able to see what the competition was offering, took the opportunity to respond aggressively. Good for them and ultimately, good for all of us.

I'm also not going to switch. But as a 1DX II owner, are there things I wish Canon would have done differently and things I'd like to see improved. Definitely.

Do you really believe I am insecure?

It's not that I am afraid of spirited debate, it's that I am against an avalanche of lies, deceits, and utter ridiculousness that takes so long to wade through the gems are simply not worth the effort. That puts people off the whole idea of the forum and they look elsewhere.

I have been censured several times, yet I believe my involvement has a net positive impact around here, I hope it does. Other vastly more provocative repetitive and aggressive posters seem to breeze along without a care, they contribute nothing positive and pay no price for the negative impact they have.

Something good can't last long if that status quo continues, surely that is obvious?

 

[unfocused]

Do you really believe I am insecure?

No. I meant "you" in a generic, general sense. Not "you" particularly.

To clarify, I am thinking of people on both sides of the debate.

Those who seem to take it personally when Canon doesn't offer class-leading features in each and every category and on each and every body. Those who insist that Canon is failing because there is one particular feature or design they personally want, that Canon has not offered. Some seem so wrapped up in having the shiniest new toy that it appears their own self-worth is tied to their possessions.

The other side of the coin are those that cannot accept any criticism of their position or of Canon itself. They even cry "bias" whenever a reviewer criticizes Canon. They seem incapable of understanding that a good review site should identify the flaws in a product and not just repeat the press release talking points.

And, then there are those on both sides of debates who simply cannot let a point go, but must challenge every perceived disagreement and whose default position is always insults and sarcasm.

It's not that I am afraid of spirited debate, it's that I am against an avalanche of lies, deceits, and utter ridiculousness that takes so long to wade through the gems are simply not worth the effort. That puts people off the whole idea of the forum and they look elsewhere...

...Something good can't last long if that status quo continues, surely that is obvious?

I don't think it is obvious. I've been following this site since before Canon Rumors Guy even created the forum.

What I have witnessed far more frequently than people leaving the forum because of trolling and criticism of Canon is the actions of one or two know-it-alls who have driven others off the forum. Some of those that were driven off were quite honestly, dunderheads. But, I still don't like bullying. In fact, I'd put up with 1,000 dunderheads if it meant the bullying was banned.

Still, ultimately, the quality of the debate on the forum is the responsibility of everyone who participates. I'd rather put up with a handful of fools -- most of whom get shot down pretty regularly -- than deal with the personal whims of aggressive moderators.

 

[stevelee]

Photographer Switches Camera Systems, Instantly Becomes Master - Fstoppers
https://apple.news/A_sTGxyYDO2CKX-7bhWM43w

 

[privatebydesign]

I'd rather put up with a handful of fools -- most of whom get shot down pretty regularly -- than deal with the personal whims of aggressive moderators.

Framed like that I can't argue.

 

[tron]

I would not leave a site simply because of a few trolls, idiots or as neuro - I think - pointed out quite realistically "both trolls and idiots". I would rather call them like that - I would give them however the benefit of the doubt and I would rather let themselves choose between the two ;D ....

The best defence is the offence like:

1. Show us your photos or even better:

2. So go get a Sony or Nikon and leave us alone to enjoy Canon and this forum.

I believe both of the above answers are within limits and moderators wouldn't care...

 

[scyrene]

Agree in that I wish the mods were more active...

No. No. No. The last thing we need is to have moderators acting as mind police. If you are so insecure in your choices that you can't handle a little brand criticism that's your problem. If the price of free discussion and debate is a little trolling, so be it.

When people make goofy statements about Canon being doomed or "sadly, the 6dm2 and 5div to be obsolete shortly" there is always a tide of people to refute their arguments. If you don't like the discussions, don't participate. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head forcing them to read these threads.

If anything, I'd much rather the moderators go after certain long-time participants who resort to constant sarcasm and sniping when challenged. But overall, I most prefer to have the moderators sit back and simply shut down foul, sexist and racist language and leave the debate to the participants.

"Mind police" indeed :

You're right of course, we aren't forced to participate here. But the problem with a classical 'allow all speech (except hate speech etc)' model is, as we see all over the internet, it breaks down when people don't all play by the same rules. Actually, CR seems to be one of the mildest online forums I've seen, and I can put up with what I see here. Nonetheless, the people setting up new accounts to say the same old thing (and it wouldn't surprise me if it's a few people creating a lot of accounts) aren't playing by the rules as you or I try to. If the upshot is people who have interesting perspectives or specialist knowledge stop participating because they're sick of having the same circular, ill-informed arguments with trolls (in the truest sense), then the forum ceases to have a purpose.

Incidentally, I reckon sarcasm and sniping is a small price to pay for people not being bored off by the trolls.

Still, ultimately, the quality of the debate on the forum is the responsibility of everyone who participates. I'd rather put up with a handful of fools -- most of whom get shot down pretty regularly -- than deal with the personal whims of aggressive moderators.

Let's be clear, we're not asking for anyone critical of Canon to be banned. But it's clear that brand new accounts that spout a very tired and inaccurate line are souring debate and discussion here - and some are doubtless sockpuppets. Action could be something as simple as, accounts have to have posted a certain nuber of times before they can create a topic (like this one).

 

[tron]

I try - and prefer - to be polite and ... let some people chose between being troll or idiots ;D ;D ;D

But, I wonder about everyone not being able to understand what is comparing apples to oranges like
comparing the 30Mp 5D4 or the 26Mp 6DII with Nikon's - future since it cannot produce pictures TODAY - 42Mp D850. At least they prove they are ignorant of Canon products like the 50Mp 5Ds and 5DsR and even Nikon's 24Mp products like D750 and D610.

 

[Maximilian]

Action could be something as simple as, accounts have to have posted a certain nuber of times before they can create a topic (like this one).

AFAIK this is still intact, see here
https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=26461.msg521507#msg521507

But please don't ask me how much

a sufficient number of posts

is.

 

[Mikehit]

I don't have a problem with some of the stupid troll-like comments that come along every now and again (and the OP on this thread is typical).
What grates is when they make the same asinine comments repeatedly and they get the same reponse (what a surprise!), instead of debating they come the whiney assed accusations of 'fanboy', 'Canon shill', 'scared of progress'. It is the inability to actually engage in conversation that is the problem.
There is the old saying 'if you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you have always got', and it holds on internet debates as well.

I have been on sites where they have been very lax on moderation and their only requirements are hold back on the personal insults and people posting the same comments repeatedly with no intention of debate are liable to be suspended. Both are evidence based so less likely to be at the capricious whim of a moderator. .

 

[JohanCruyff]

Photographer Switches Camera Systems, Instantly Becomes Master - Fstoppers
https://apple.news/A_sTGxyYDO2CKX-7bhWM43w

So true...
In fact, when I changed my printer, I became a famous writer in a few days.

 

[tron]

Photographer Switches Camera Systems, Instantly Becomes Master - Fstoppers
https://apple.news/A_sTGxyYDO2CKX-7bhWM43w

So true...
In fact, when I changed my printer, I became a famous writer in a few days.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

 

[Don Haines]

I try - and prefer - to be polite and ... let some people chose between being troll or idiots ;D ;D ;D

But, I wonder about everyone not being able to understand what is comparing apples to oranges like
comparing the 30Mp 5D4 or the 26Mp 6DII with Nikon's - future since it cannot produce pictures TODAY - 42Mp D850. At least they prove they are ignorant of Canon products like the 50Mp 5Ds and 5DsR and even Nikon's 24Mp products like D750 and D610.

I agree!

When you see comparisons of new tech from company A against old tech of company B, a comparison that fixates on one aspect of a camera and tries to extrapolate that one aspect into the entire corporate lineup, or a top of the line camera from A against a mid or low level camera from B, you know that there is so much bias that reading any further is futile.....

 

[Mikehit]

New member here. Frustrated with my 6dm2. Only posting this so I can start my own topic. Nothing to see here. Move along...

At least you are honest and not just wading in with negative vibes. Make it worthwhile ;D

 

[scyrene]

Action could be something as simple as, accounts have to have posted a certain nuber of times before they can create a topic (like this one).

AFAIK this is still intact, see here
https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=26461.msg521507#msg521507

But please don't ask me how much

a sufficient number of posts

is.

Ah, that makes sense, thanks!

Although...

New member here. Frustrated with my 6dm2. Only posting this so I can start my own topic. Nothing to see here. Move along...

The system can be gamed (and it looks like it doesn't take many posts to do this).

 

[OSOK]

The 6D mark II was obsolete the day it was announced. I have yet to see a single positive review across the web, whether it be a site, blog, vlog or youtube. Even the pro-Canon sites, you can tell they struggle to promote it. Videos and reviewers work hard not to bash the camera out of respect for Canon or to maintain professionalism. They frame it in the most positive light possible despite its shortcomings. Others outright mock it and say it how it is.

The 5D Mark IV is a different story. It wasn't received by the industry with huge delight, but it wasn't criticized other than the 4K capability. As a stills camera, it is good. While it has been easily surpassed by the D850 in every single area except for DPAF, it is still a great camera that is relevant to the features and quality expected today. It literally only has DPAF as an advantage and nothing else in comparison to the D850.

The 6D2 is being torn to pieces over its questionable IQ, and that was unexpected as the rest of the camera's specs were weak and should have been the focus of the negative reviews. It was a surprise that the IQ stole the spotlight of negativity. The articulating screen is nice, but no one cares when it is attached to a sub-par body.

The 6D and 5D3 generation did not get leapfrogged by Nikon's D610, D750 and D810 nearly as bad as the 6D2 and 5D4 have by the D850 and who knows how stacked the D760 will be.

Canon either blundered or is genius in their assessment of the market. There's no in between. To me, it looks like they are pushing upmarket. This is evident by their total and intentional crippling of video capability in their DSLR except the 1DX2. The 6D2 was the full frame 80D Canon users wanted and nothing more. May be popular within their own ecosystem, but is not popular in the wider industry. Canon offers the entry level Rebel popular stuff, and a couple nice enthusiast cameras. Then it jumps to pro bodies at the 5D series and up. The 6D2 is a bit of an oddball as it's there for the large customer base of entry level and enthusiast body owners who want to make the jump to a FF sensor and not much more. It serves that purpose perfectly. These are people who don't need 5D features or specs. They just want a FF sensor wrapped by enthusiast features and body.

There you have it. If you fall into the target market - it isn't such a bad camera. For everyone else, it is relic from the past being sold as a new body.

As for the 5D Mark IV, Canon users with arsenals of serious glass will not care one bit what Nikon is doing - that camera will churn out great IQ day in day out. It is still an amazing body regardless of how good the D850 is.

 

[Mikehit]

blah blah...cripling...bah blah...nerfing...blah blah...old technology...blah blah...aren't Canon users a bunch of dummies...

Review sites have to find something to criticise - it is why they exist. Comparing cameras and manufacturers i the nature of the beast. On the other hand, the people who really matter - those actually buying the thing - say that as a camera (you know, something used tot take pictures) it is a significant improvement over the 6D.
Or do you only read review sites and ignore real-world comments?

May be popular within their own ecosystem, but is not popular in the wider industry.

You don't get it do you?
A company makes a very small number of flagship models, the ones that grab the attention and create aspirations of ownership. Not every model is designed to have people swapping systems - not Canon, not Nikon, not Sony. No-one. Most models are there to keep the existing customers happy and give them lines of progressions and your opinion matters not one jot - what matters is how many people keep buying Canon.
So will you please PLEASE stop blathering on about 'intentional crippling' and how it is a 'relic from the past sold as a new body'. Not even the sensor can be called a 'relic from the past'. It is an upgrade from the 6D and that is all it was ever meant to be.

 

[dak723]

The 6D mark II was obsolete the day it was announced. I have yet to see a single positive review across the web, whether it be a site, blog, vlog or youtube. Even the pro-Canon sites, you can tell they struggle to promote it. Videos and reviewers work hard not to bash the camera out of respect for Canon or to maintain professionalism. They frame it in the most positive light possible despite its shortcomings. Others outright mock it and say it how it is.

Feel free to be another mindless troll repeating the same garbage. It's Ok with me if you want to look like a fool. There have been numerous posts on this forum from folks that have purchased the new 6D II and they all seem to be in agreement that the camera is performing much better than they expected and is better in every way compared to the 6D.

 

[Sarpedon]

Agree in that I wish the mods were more active...

No. No. No. The last thing we need is to have moderators acting as mind police. If you are so insecure in your choices that you can't handle a little brand criticism that's your problem. If the price of free discussion and debate is a little trolling, so be it.

When people make goofy statements about Canon being doomed or "sadly, the 6dm2 and 5div to be obsolete shortly" there is always a tide of people to refute their arguments. If you don't like the discussions, don't participate. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head forcing them to read these threads.

If anything, I'd much rather the moderators go after certain long-time participants who resort to constant sarcasm and sniping when challenged. But overall, I most prefer to have the moderators sit back and simply shut down foul, sexist and racist language and leave the debate to the participants.

"Mind police" indeed :

You're right of course, we aren't forced to participate here. But the problem with a classical 'allow all speech (except hate speech etc)' model is, as we see all over the internet, it breaks down when people don't all play by the same rules. Actually, CR seems to be one of the mildest online forums I've seen, and I can put up with what I see here. Nonetheless, the people setting up new accounts to say the same old thing (and it wouldn't surprise me if it's a few people creating a lot of accounts) aren't playing by the rules as you or I try to. If the upshot is people who have interesting perspectives or specialist knowledge stop participating because they're sick of having the same circular, ill-informed arguments with trolls (in the truest sense), then the forum ceases to have a purpose.

Incidentally, I reckon sarcasm and sniping is a small price to pay for people not being bored off by the trolls.

Still, ultimately, the quality of the debate on the forum is the responsibility of everyone who participates. I'd rather put up with a handful of fools -- most of whom get shot down pretty regularly -- than deal with the personal whims of aggressive moderators.

Let's be clear, we're not asking for anyone critical of Canon to be banned. But it's clear that brand new accounts that spout a very tired and inaccurate line are souring debate and discussion here - and some are doubtless sockpuppets. Action could be something as simple as, accounts have to have posted a certain nuber of times before they can create a topic (like this one).

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but the blame can't all go to the new accounts and trolls. There are people on this forum who are so used to arguing with trolls that they can't tell the difference between trolls and honest disagreement. And far too often the argument doesn't even start with a troll, but with a person who has spent too long arguing with trolls complaining about them before they even appear. Check out the beginning of new threads, it happens all the time. Preemptively complaining sours the mood and promotes conflict. Overreaction to honest disagreement sours the mood and promotes conflict. Trolls suck, but some people here really need to take responsibility for their behavior.

 

[Don Haines]

The 6D mark II was obsolete the day it was announced. I have yet to see a single positive review across the web, whether it be a site, blog, vlog or youtube. Even the pro-Canon sites, you can tell they struggle to promote it. Videos and reviewers work hard not to bash the camera out of respect for Canon or to maintain professionalism. They frame it in the most positive light possible despite its shortcomings. Others outright mock it and say it how it is.

Feel free to be another mindless troll repeating the same garbage. It's Ok with me if you want to look like a fool. There have been numerous posts on this forum from folks that have purchased the new 6D II and they all seem to be in agreement that the camera is performing much better than they expected and is better in every way compared to the 6D.

Yes......

Got a 6D2, seems to work well, my only complaint so far is that Focal does not support it yet..... oh well, will try the manual AFMA method this weekend.....

 

[Mikehit]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but the blame can't all go to the new accounts and trolls. There are people on this forum who are so used to arguing with trolls that they can't tell the difference between trolls and honest disagreement. And far too often the argument doesn't even start with a troll, but with a person who has spent too long arguing with trolls complaining about them before they even appear. Check out the beginning of new threads, it happens all the time. Preemptively complaining sours the mood and promotes conflict. Overreaction to honest disagreement sours the mood and promotes conflict. Trolls suck, but some people here really need to take responsibility for their behavior.

I agree with you.
But when you have several people starting accounts simply so they can complain about the latest Canon camera, it is hard to not be cynical.
If someone posts and is willing to participate in discussion that is one thing, but when all they do is repeat the same tired old criticisms and don't actually bring anything new to the table I think it is acceptable to call them out. And if that means overreacting to some seriously held opinions then that is collateral damage.
In any social interaction, people 'earn the right' to have their opinions taken seriously and that applies to internet forums as much as meeting people in a bar or at any other social gathering. If at a social gathering someone you did not know decided to criticise something you think seriously about without any pre-amble or any explanation of where they are coming from, would you give them the time of day?