Shocker from Nikon: D5 is officially happening.

[Sporgon]

But someone please answer my question -- who makes the D4/D4S sensors? Just curious.

- A

If I remember rightly; Toshiba, who also make the crop sensor for the D7200 - or something like that.

 

[9VIII]

This is probably where talk of long term Sony and Nikon collaboration come from.
https://www.chipworks.com/about-chipworks/overview/blog/full-frame-dslr-cameras-part-i-nikon-vs-sony

It looks like they've been back and forth quite a bit.
The impression I get from reading the article is that collaboration with Sony is much more down to earth than just bit of patent sharing. Nikon sensors seem quite competent (e.g. http://www.sensorgen.info/NikonD3300.html vs. http://www.sensorgen.info/NikonD3200.html)
Also Sensorgen lists a Toshiba sensor on the D5200 http://www.sensorgen.info/NikonD5200.html which is also virtually identical in performance to the D5300 http://www.sensorgen.info/NikonD5300.html

 

[Roo]

Is the the camera manufacturer version of "save the date"?

More like "we just got engaged but have no idea when we can afford the wedding". ;D

 

[gadgeteer]

Is the the camera manufacturer version of "save the date"?

More like "we just got engaged but have no idea when we can afford the wedding". ;D

So true!

 

[Tugela]

Samsung were reported/rumoured to be working a next generation FF sensor to replace the NX1, but apparently that got shelved when they decided to shut up shop on the photography business.

That means that there is a high performance ultra modern FF sensor up for grabs. It seems suspicious that Nikon would be announcing this right about the same time Samsung started closing up distribution of their camera products.

My guess is that the two companies made a deal and the D5 will be housing the new Samsung FF sensor.

Rumour has it that Samsung will be making a major and surprising announcement at CES. This will probably be it.

 

[ahsanford]

Samsung were reported/rumoured to be working a next generation FF sensor to replace the NX1, but apparently that got shelved when they decided to shut up shop on the photography business.

That means that there is a high performance ultra modern FF sensor up for grabs. It seems suspicious that Nikon would be announcing this right about the same time Samsung started closing up distribution of their camera products.

My guess is that the two companies made a deal and the D5 will be housing the new Samsung FF sensor.

Rumour has it that Samsung will be making a major and surprising announcement at CES. This will probably be it.

I like the strategery of that idea, but I don't think FF sensors can just be chopped and changed and slapped into different bodies so quickly. Consider that the A7R II has been out for some time and Nikon's adaptation of that into the D820 or D900 (whatever they call it) still hasn't happened yet.

- A

 

[Tugela]

Not necessarily quickly. If this turns out to be what is happening, they would have been working on it for some time already. If Samsung have already worked out the supporting logic (processors and such), it would not take all that long to fit to a new body. Plus, announcing a collaborative development doesn't mean that the product will be out the doors the next day. The end of the year in 2016 for actual shipment would be more likely. That is plenty of time.

 

[3kramd5]

And now Sony and Canon have a new even closer partnership that specifically excludes Nikon. So it sounds like Nikon is going to be hurting in the sensor dept from now on and Canon has no where to go but up.

I doubt that, especially given that Sony spun its semiconductor business off into its own corporation. The idea that they would then exclude a major potential customer is kinda silly. Might Nikon opt for Toshiba, Aptina, Samsung, or someone else? Sure. But Sony Semiconductor Solutions wouldn't likely be very happy about it.

 

[RustyTheGeek]

And now Sony and Canon have a new even closer partnership that specifically excludes Nikon. So it sounds like Nikon is going to be hurting in the sensor dept from now on and Canon has no where to go but up.

I doubt that, especially given that Sony spun its semiconductor business off into its own corporation. The idea that they would then exclude a major potential customer is kinda silly. Might Nikon opt for Toshiba, Aptina, Samsung, or someone else? Sure. But Sony Semiconductor Solutions wouldn't likely be very happy about it.

I have very little clue about this, I'm just sharing what I heard and postulating based on that. And what I heard was that Sony was tired of Nikon treating them like sh*t and so isn't interested in doing as much business with them going forward. Canon took advantage of that growing rift and got more cozy with Sony as a result. They both have things to offer the other can benefit from in a stronger partnership. I agree that business is business but if business is better for Sony with Nikon's biggest competitor (Canon), then that better business will likely dictate slowing some of the other business (Nikon). Know what I mean? Nikon isn't shut out, they will just no longer benefit from Sony's best designs. Those will now go to Canon only. Which might explain why Nikon is courting Samsung for FF sensors. (Which I think was part of what I heard at the time as well.)

The point for Canon fans is that Canon will now lead by a wider margin. Sony is making the best sensors in the industry and that is a good thing for Canon and Sony. Not so much for Nikon. (And Samsung.) There are only a handful of good sensor makers. Canon is no slouch but Sony is now ahead of everyone and it makes better business sense for Canon not to waste resources trying to duplicate effort and compete with Sony on sensor development and production if they don't have to. The same goes for Sony with Lens production, etc.

 

[3kramd5]

I agree that business is business but if business is better for Sony with Nikon's biggest competitor (Canon), then that better business will likely dictate slowing some of the other business (Nikon). Know what I mean?

If it's an either/or proposition and there is no financial difference, sure, they'd prefer to work with a friendly company than an unfriendly one. I imagine they have the capacity to service both. *shrug*

 

[Tugela]

And now Sony and Canon have a new even closer partnership that specifically excludes Nikon. So it sounds like Nikon is going to be hurting in the sensor dept from now on and Canon has no where to go but up.

I doubt that, especially given that Sony spun its semiconductor business off into its own corporation. The idea that they would then exclude a major potential customer is kinda silly. Might Nikon opt for Toshiba, Aptina, Samsung, or someone else? Sure. But Sony Semiconductor Solutions wouldn't likely be very happy about it.

The issue for Nikon with Sony no doubt is that Sony is a direct competitor in their market. That means the latest stuff goes into Sony cameras first and Nikon gets it later. Over time that will result in Sony increasing market share at the expense of Nikon, so it is not a happy situation for them to be in.

 

[ahsanford]

The issue for Nikon with Sony no doubt is that Sony is a direct competitor in their market. That means the latest stuff goes into Sony cameras first and Nikon gets it later. Over time that will result in Sony increasing market share at the expense of Nikon, so it is not a happy situation for them to be in.

Sure, but the times they are a changin'.

It will be a fascinating next few years. IMHO, Sony spinning off its sensor business is a large step towards licensing more sensors to competitors -- the Sony sensor business need to hit its own sensor numbers and should care less about protecting its imaging business.

So a protected / first-look arrangement with Sony sensors may still exist with Sony cameras, but I expect the sensor business to avoid hard rules like "The A7R II sensor will only go in a Sony body for 12 months" in favor of proliferating their tech widely and quickly to Canon, Nikon, Pentax, etc. to generate more near-term sales.

- A

 

[3kramd5]

And now Sony and Canon have a new even closer partnership that specifically excludes Nikon. So it sounds like Nikon is going to be hurting in the sensor dept from now on and Canon has no where to go but up.

I doubt that, especially given that Sony spun its semiconductor business off into its own corporation. The idea that they would then exclude a major potential customer is kinda silly. Might Nikon opt for Toshiba, Aptina, Samsung, or someone else? Sure. But Sony Semiconductor Solutions wouldn't likely be very happy about it.

The issue for Nikon with Sony no doubt is that Sony is a direct competitor in their market. That means the latest stuff goes into Sony cameras first and Nikon gets it later. Over time that will result in Sony increasing market share at the expense of Nikon, so it is not a happy situation for them to be in.

Didn't the D600 reach market before the a7ii, both using the same sensor? (Same story with D800 and A7R, but that's hardly a fair data point since the alpha line didn't exist when the D800 came out).

What evidence is there supporting the idea that Sony Semiconductor Solutions will play favored nations with Sony Consumer Electronics at the expense of sales to Nikon, a major customer (and indeed potentially a larger one than SCE)? It would be a terrible business strategy for SSS to act in a way which causes Nikon to select a different vendor. I'm not saying that won't happen, but I've not seen any evidence other than the rumors posted in this thread.

 

[George D.]

So Nikon are changing sensor to Samsung from Sony and will sport Socionext CPU that used to be Fujitsu. Please change the title: Shocker from Fujitsu, Socionext, Samsung and Nikon coalition. NikoFujiSamsuSocio.

 

[tron]

That is it, 'I am jumping ship', at least Nikon innovate and keep their customers informed, they already have decent DR, and usable Live View (er, no they don't) and you can use every F mount lens ever made (oh no you can't) not like that bullS___ Canon FD to EF nonsense, and what is it with EF, EF-s and EF-m? But back to DR and Live View, my 5DS/R's are utterly unusable for landscape because of the poor Live View implementation, I'd swap just for that. The DR of every Nikon body ever made, including the V1, bests even the best Canon bodies of any size (I know 'cos DxO told me, by the by have you actually used a DxO One? They are fantastic and the best DR ever) some by more than one stop! Canon are crap, they never innovate, I can't take a decent astro photo with a Canon, any Canon, because, well because DxO told me I can't. Nikon's new wireless flash will be killer and will have an optical trigger in it for free, take that 600-EX-RT, the overpriced hunk of crap (that is cheaper than the SB900 and has been for a long time). Don't get me started on lenses, Canon are crap, they never innovate, Nikon do, and they admit their mistakes and look after their customers, not like faceless Canon, I had a 50 f1.4 and broke the AF 27 times in fifteen minutes, mind you the AF was S___ anyway and it was so soft you had to stop it down to f20 to get anything sharp, anyway I got it off CraigsList for $120 and the date code said it was made some time this century, anyway Canon wouldn't fix it for free, even though I told them I only just bought the lens! They wanted, like, $150 to fix it, I told them it only cost me $120! What a rip off. Oh and most Nikon lenses come with UV filters, you MUST use a UV filter at all times. And my cousin said if you buy a D750 or above you get a free concubine direct from Nikon, you just have to fill out an online survey and they send you one, you can even choose the colour of the kimono so it doesn't clash with your carpet. Anyway, the orderly is comming back now so I am off, goodbye Canon and hello to the open and welcoming arms of the most innovative and feature laden camera company (apart from Sony but they have, like, four lenses, duh!) NIKON RUEWLES. [sic].

Oh no, I didn't know that. Now I will have to delete all my astro photos taken with my 5D3 ;D ;D ;D ;D

 

[ahsanford]

What evidence is there supporting the idea that Sony Semiconductor Solutions will play favored nations with Sony Consumer Electronics at the expense of sales to Nikon, a major customer (and indeed potentially a larger one than SCE)? It would be a terrible business strategy for SSS to act in a way which causes Nikon to select a different vendor. I'm not saying that won't happen, but I've not seen any evidence other than the rumors posted in this thread.

Short answer: Nikon had timing parity (actually an advantage) with Sony because the A7 line was just getting launched.

Now that A7 is fully out the door, consider: where is the Nikon camera with that 42 MP A7R II sensor?

We obviously don't know if the A7R II is so far ahead of Nikon timing wise...

• ...because Sony's camera folks codeveloped that sensor while they were designing the A7R II (remember they were not split business at that time)
• ...because Sony simply knew internally that it was coming sooner than Nikon did
• ...because Sony has contractual terms limiting when Nikon can get it, like a formal delay wait period after the release of the A7R II
• ...because Nikon is taking a longer time to dial that sensor in for their cameras' needs

...but it's probably some combination of the above.

- A

 

[ChristopherMarkPerez]

Isn't the Real Shocker that rumor that Nikon is buying Samsung's mirrorless line-up and their sensor tech?

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/hot-rumor-nikon-bought-samsung-nx-mirrorless-tech/

 

[ahsanford]

Isn't the Real Shocker that rumor that Nikon is buying Samsung's mirrorless line-up and their sensor tech?

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/hot-rumor-nikon-bought-samsung-nx-mirrorless-tech/

That's OT, but lucky for you I just started a thread on that:

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=28500.msg561975#msg561975

Discuss there, please!

- A

 

[3kramd5]

where is the Nikon camera with that 42 MP A7R II sensor?

Well, we don't know if there will *EVER* be one, and if there is, we will have no idea whether the perceived delay was due to sony strategically withholding, nikon mulling options (see the samsung rumor), nikon being unready or not wanting to demonstrate deficiencies in their glass (given that on average the 5D3 with canon lenses outresolves the D800 with nikon lenses, a 42MP camera without a lens refresh could be embarrassing), sony not having the capacity, nikon wanting to sell excess D810 stock, or any number of other things.

Regardless, that was before SSS was incorporated. Now, if Nikon is a customer, I wouldn't expect SSS (an operating unit/profit center unto itself as I understand it) to protect SCE sales at the expense of SSS profits. If anything, SSS exists to prevent that behavior given how strong the imaging sensors business it relative to the bulk of Sony.

 

[ahsanford]

where is the Nikon camera with that 42 MP A7R II sensor?

Regardless, that was before SSS was incorporated. Now, if Nikon is a customer, I wouldn't expect SSS (an operating unit/profit center unto itself as I understand it) to protect SCE sales at the expense of SSS profits. If anything, SSS exists to prevent that behavior given how strong the imaging sensors business it relative to the bulk of Sony.

100% agree. The sensor division will push for more sales volume even if it's at the expense of the camera division's competitive advantage.

But again, many would argue that 42 MP BSI sensor is the best FF sensor on the market (all things considered, recognizing many folks would prefer fewer/better pixels), and I continue to scratch my head why Nikon hasn't unleashed the potential of that thing with their ergonomics, their glass with their first party AF routines, their accessories, flashes, etc. I have zero doubt it will be a better product than the A7R II -- Nikon has been the game far longer and they know the little things that pros expect and have a habit of delivering on that (like Canon does).

The argument that Nikon needs better glass more than a better sensor than the D810 is true. But that doesn't allow Nikon to avoid putting out a new body 'until all the lenses are sorted'. They have a lens development pipeline and a camera body development pipeline and they both march ahead because the market demands that they must.

- A