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Should I get into this industry?

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AcutancePhotography said:
Valvebounce said:
Hi Dave
First I'm an amateur so not worried about you as competition.
You say you want to do something you love, my personal experience is don't turn your hobby in to a career/profession, you could find it takes the fun and enjoyment out of it!

+1

I personally think that being a professional photographer is a tough way to make a living and an easy way to ruin a hobby.

But best of luck to you!!

Word to that!

The worst bit is (speaking as a video guy) that because folk still presume it's a hobby they want 'mates rates' or a freebie, because they think you'll do it because you enjoy it.

Don't get me wrong, for the most part I do. But it also needs to pay the bills.

Away from the video day job I'm a fairly competent photographer, and I really really enjoy my hobby, I hate hate hate it when I'm asked to take photos for somebody else, really riles me big time. I don't do my hobby for other folk I do it for me.
I've never done any photography I'm happy with for other people.

I've had folk license images I've taken in pursuit of my hobby that have happened to be fairly good, but I really struggle to think of a time when I've enjoyed doing photography to a brief, or been happy with the results.

Don't get me wrong, I volunteer my video services when an occassion arises that I think I can have fun with something, or if I support a cause, and I'll do that to the same standard as a paid job, usually for expenses (no I can't just burn and print you 50DVDs for free as well, sorreeee) but I'm very precious about my photography and that it remains absolutely mine.

I work with full time press photographers frequently, and I've never met one who is doing as well as you might think... a pro having a 1DmkIV isn't the same thing as a hobbyist having a 1DmkIV, don't assume wealth or brilliant pay because a pro has the (often hired in) tools for a job.

The amateur with all the gear has a well paid day job.
 
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Hi Dave, I like your site. Your work is as good as a lot of other professionals. But is that enough? Through my association with camera clubs, competitions and via my own work, I come across a lot of professional photographers (I'm not one myself, so take my comments as those of a mere bystander). Many have backgrounds similar to yourself - in between jobs, love photography and think they'll give it a go. Unfortunately, most don't do well financially and move on within a year or so. But some do very well.

The ones that do well financially tend to have extremely high photographic skills (you look at their work and go "WOW!"), great interpersonal skills (people enjoy doing business with them), focus on a particular market (they get known for doing something well), do good marketing (because you always need more clients) and are very business/profit orientated. Nobody would expect you to be an expert at all of these on day one. So the real question is whether you want to spend the next five years trying to develop these skills and grow a business knowing that there is a very high risk that you won't be successful and will probably eventually throw the towel in anyway. As others have said above, there are easier things to make money at.
 
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yellowbull said:
Hi there, my name is Dave. I need a little advice if possible. I was in the computer graphics industry for 20 years. I lost my job last December. I've been having a hard time finding work. So, with that said I'm kind of find myself at a crossroads in my life/career. I have been a hobby photographer for about 10 years and thought maybe now is the time to change career paths. What kind of advice would you give someone who wants to get into this career. I dont have any buisness or marketing education, so I am willing to take some classes. I love to shoot landscapes, cars, old buildings, abstract things. I know this industry is competitive and probably oversaturated but I want to do something I love. Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated!

Thanks,
My website is below
www.davedwire.com

Dave

Wow. With a portfolio of work like that, I don't see why it would be difficult to find work at another similar company. You'll be better off doing that than being a photographer. It's very difficult to make it work out.
 
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I also considered doing photography commercially when I turned freelance in my PR business and have managed to do some photography work for paying clients that has paid pretty well on a day rate basis. However, primarily as I've been more busy doing the PR, which grew to 95% of my time, I've simply not had the time to scale up the photography and wonder honestly if I'd have been able to do so to fill the same degree of time given the amount of work you'd need to stay booked up and busy. The work involves lots of hours here and half days there and all the time in between when marketing yourself isn't earning.

So, it is tough. But by being a freelance at the business I know, I have been able to work to get better at the photography and that's been the best of both worlds. So don't abandon your experience and current trade, but find a freelance model that lets you strike out in the void with a safety net beneath you.

One key decision I took was to assess the day rates of people working in my area and market (I do PR photos and events) and aim to match that pricing rather than undercut other pros. Why dilute the value of the very business you want to pay your bills in future? Aim to the lower end of the scale to acknowledge your relative inexperience for sure, but don't kill off the profession!

Another suggestion - while doing something else that pays the bills - is to volunteer. Find charities and causes that need a professional to do a job pro bono and give them your time. I did two years of working with some brilliant local groups in this way and got lots of real world experience. When the photos need to be as good as any other pros and when the time and people challenges are the same, you learn awfully fast. The crucial thing is that you're not (potentially) making mistakes on someone's budget so you have the leeway to learn by mistakes, which is really the only way to do it. Volunteering in this way is also a better alternative to working for rock bottom rates that kill the market.

I also strongly echo the advice about finding a niche. Working in PR and having contacts from my past agencies I have a client perspective on what's needed that's really helped me deliver work that's kept clients happy. Are there fields of image capture that could complement your brilliant digital art that could give you an edge? Possibly...

A couple of years on, the photography is still a sideline due to the rest of the business but its one that pays for itself, funds new photographic toys and helps towards paying the bills. I used to want to leave behind PR to a greater extent, but doing a bit of two careers has made me love both more. Creating a portfolio of saleable skills and developing your own flexible, hybrid career is very much a possibility these days. Why choose?
 
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Some great advice here - it's all been said really, but with a 30-yr professional in my family, I feel bound to re-emphasize something.

"I don't have any business or marketing education" <-- there's your problem, as they say.

Most of *any* business is business and marketing.

Check out this chart -- there are similar ones around:
http://blog.stanleyleary.com/2012/01/where-my-time-goes-as-full-time-pro.html

But there is hope - you now also understand why you are probably having trouble getting something in your existing profession too!

Clearly you have the skills and experience as a great graphics designer. All that's likely missing is the business and marketing skills to sell yourself to potential employers - or even to make it yourself in your own business in the same field.

Go for it. Get that education. Find free or low-cost classes - fantastic MOOCs like Coursera/Udacity/EdX, etc. Even just YouTube. Also your public library. Use that time you now have as an investment - in you.

Good luck! But heed the advice in this very fair thread carefully and "seize the day"!
 
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Valvebounce said:
Hi Dave
First I'm an amateur so not worried about you as competition.
You say you want to do something you love, my personal experience is don't turn your hobby in to a career/profession, you could find it takes the fun and enjoyment out of it! Ambling round taking some pics of this or that whatever takes your fancy, a bit of post processing if or when it takes your fancy is a lot different from shoot this crappy product and make it look good, and by the way I want it yesterday, then having the customer trying to move the goal posts when they are unhappy.

I trained at college as an engineer and couldn't find work in that field so I thought I'm a good vehicle mechanic, I love doing it for a hobby, I'll get a job in a garage, some vacancies for that available.
Trouble is when you have spent all day under a car the last place appealing for r and r is under another bloody car.
I was in the garage a year before the opportunity to work in a tool room arose, it then took about a year before I wanted to be under a car again.

I'm sure there will be some who say go for it, and if you do it may work for you but do you want to take the risk of ruining your hobby.

I would say if you do go for it try to not end up doing landscape, cars and the other things you like.

Good luck finding work it is a real low point finding yourself unemployed.

Cheers Graham.

++++1

I enjoy messing around with cars and cameras, and I'm so glad that neither is my occupation. I design shopping centres for a living, and really don't feel like thinking through the redesign of my own house and garage when I get home. It's just so tempting to take the car or camera out instead.

Whichever you do for a living, it will detract from your enjoyment. But it's also worth doing something you do for a living. Good luck in whichever direction you choose to go.
 
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An interesting read for sure.

I don't think anyone can talk you into or out of this decision. Making the jump to pro as a full-time gig is a tough one and one that I know most people can't do. I don't know what your situation is at home (much easier to do as a single guy instead of someone with a wife and 3 kids) but if you want to make the jump, then jump. Give it a finite amount of time before you realize you're going to need to cut your losses and move onto something else.

"I need to be making X a month in six months."

Whatever X is a month, work backwards. Who is paying you? How are you going to get them to find you? Why would they pick you over someone else? You're going to find out it's marketing. It's probably 50% marketing in making it a full time gig. It's tough. It's really, really tough. It's been tough to me even as a part-timer with a background in marketing.

With all of that said, Jeremy Cowart was a graphic artist before grabbing a camera and made it big, pretty quick. I only bring that up because he has shared his story and it's pretty accessible online. Granted I would bet there are probably hundreds or thousands of crushed former graphic artists for every one Cowart.

With all of that said, I personally don't know any full-time pro photographers shooting what you shoot. I know dozens of portrait, children, wedding, and commercial photographers that are all enjoying being a full-time pro though.

Either way, keep us updated and best wishes!
 
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I used to be a semi pro musician and can tell you that anything outside the "norm" or where you employ yourself is a tough way to make money. It requires skill, a bit of luck, and a lot of perseverance and networking within your industry. You can money photography but if you are starting out, don't rely on it to pay the rent.
 
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Hi Chauncey.
My father used to work maintenance in a local hospital. One day after a particularly upset surgeon tried to "tear him a new one" following an equipment failure my father replied with "my mistakes are there for all to see, you bury yours". I'm not saying the equipment failure didn't cause the surgeon additional stress, as I'm pretty sure having the flood light loose half it's light would have stressed a saint. My point is to reinforce what you said about no back button.
One of my friends is an anaestheologist, he unwinds by driving a TR6 or a TVR FAST.

I for one really appreciate that there are people like yourself out there willing to deal with the STRESS of keeping us alive yet unaware of the surgeon chiseling a bone for a new joint, or fiddling with the fleshy bit that stopped working.

Thanks, cheers Graham.


chauncey said:
Allow me to show you what I did before retiring 15 years ago...http://www.crnasalary.com/ only six years training.
There is a downside...you cannot make a mistake in that job, ever...there is no "undo" command.
Before retiring, I was making 350K. Why retire you ask, easy choice...I felt as though my judgment was failing me.
 
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yellowbull said:
Hi there, my name is Dave. I need a little advice if possible. I was in the computer graphics industry for 20 years. I lost my job last December. I've been having a hard time finding work. So, with that said I'm kind of find myself at a crossroads in my life/career. I have been a hobby photographer for about 10 years and thought maybe now is the time to change career paths. What kind of advice would you give someone who wants to get into this career. I dont have any buisness or marketing education, so I am willing to take some classes. I love to shoot landscapes, cars, old buildings, abstract things. I know this industry is competitive and probably oversaturated but I want to do something I love. Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated!

Thanks,
My website is below
www.davedwire.com

Dave

Dave,

I also faced a similar situation. In 2010 I was a web & graphic designer for a non-profit that was on the verge of going under by the year's end. I didn't have a formal college education in web development or graphic design and my portfolio solely consisted of work I did for the non-profit. So I figured it would be hard to market my skill set in an over saturated industry (there are literally over 200,000 web developers in the Pacific Northwest).

With that in mind I decided to go back to college and earn a degree in business marketing with a focus in online advertising and social media. I don't have any kids and I'm not married so it was a pretty easy decision. While pursuing my degree I actively sought out internships with online retail companies (Amazon, REI, Google, and eventually Expedia) along with expanding my personal portfolio of photography, websites, and videos. Luckily, by the time I graduated I was offered full-time jobs with all of them (I accepted the offer from Expedia where I'm currently employed).

In my current role at Expedia, I'm responsible for transitioning the company's digital portfolio of activities to a new platform that supports mobile and tablet devices. That basically means acquiring new photos and videos whether that involves purchasing stock photos, hiring photographers/videographers, or doing it myself. It's a fun job and I'm certainly doing what I love as a career, but it does have its ups and downs.

Here's a my 2 cents on pursuing a career in photography/videography:
  • Graphic design, web development, photography, and videography go hand-in-hand. There are A LOT of opportunities out there for people that have extensive knowledge of all four. In the corporate world, everyone is focusing on retooling their online presence to accommodate Android, iOS, and social media platforms. That means better images, better video, and better interfaces that incorporate online touchscreen devices for the global consumer. This also leads to opportunities for small business/self-employed consultants because these large corporations may decide to contract out parts of this work to those that specialize in specific tasks.
  • Decide whether you want to be your own boss. While in college I expanded my personal portfolio by photographing or video recording weddings, events, and indie projects. Within a year I was able to establish a healthy living, but I didn't feel ready to fully pursue my own business. Even though it's great being my own boss, at the end of the day I don't get paid unless I meet my client's expectations. So in essence my clients became my boss.
  • Decide if you need to go back to school. Amazon, Google, REI, and Expedia all gave me pending offers based on whether I earned a college degree with a 3.5 GPA or higher in Business or Computer Science Engineering. May sound crazy, but there's a lot of stiff competition out there. I later learned that the degree is a form of collateral for hiring managers and recruiters.
  • Pursuing your hobby as a career will definitely change your viewpoint on said hobby. Graphic design, photography, and videography have been life long hobbies. Doing them as a profession means less time doing them as a hobby. There have been several moments where I've been on weeklong photo shoots or video productions and by the time they're complete the last thing I want to do is pick up a camera and work on a personal project. To continue them as I hobby I've lately made sure I have time on the weekends to get out of the house and take a few photos/videos.

Hope this info helps.

Cheers,
 
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Hi Dave, sympathies of the job front dude. Pag has some really good advice on his reply.

Had a look over your site/work. Straight away can see your 3D skills are far far outweighing your photography, sorry if thats not what you had hoped for.
If could be subject matter as many have suggested, landscapes and abstracts and some architecture aren't going to pay the bills. And not in that style. What you have to do is really look at professional photographers work. See and understand whats being produced, style, subject matter etc and work out what you would like to shoot and inch a market in for yourself.
I dont really see any work that involves, products , people, and lighting in particular setups that is the mainstay of work , well for myself anyway.

I get the feeling that you're spending too much time admiring amatures work on Flickr etc and not looking at real professional creative photography.

www.at-edge.com is a good place to see some really interesting work. ( you can choose categories to browse)

And more importantly its not just the photos that get you the job, its knowing how to handle yourself and the shoot pressures calmly and professionally which take years to learn. Its not just one man and a camera having fun. Its running a day pleasing / conversing with art directors, , producers, clients , Keeping assistants on track and making sure everything is safe and everyones happy whilst getting the lighting the best you can, and keeping the Models happy and enthused. Sometimes art director or client wants to go down a route thats not the best overall, you have to gently make reason with their view without putting anyones nose out, and still make if feel like you're doing some magic that no-one else could have done.. which keeps people coming back to you.

There's some good behind the scenes of shoots on youtube if you look.

I you are still keen how about contacting a couple of nearby professional photographers to offer some free 2nd assistant work experience (mostly will be making the coffee and moving some large items around studio or clearing up)
But you will then see whats involved in a real shoot.
Hopefully this would be really good fun for you and really open your eyes to how its done.

Assisting is a really invaluable way to learn how to be professional photographer.
Otherwise if you want to aim more down the standard social photographer route, then advertising to do free shoots for portraits etc will give you more experience and build your portfolio, but as many have said its a crowded market more than any doing portraits, family & weddings unless you find a niche in it that makes you stand out from everyone else.

Now going back to your 3D work, seems like cars are your thing? Have you contacted any car photographers to chat to ? Or maybe your work is more suited to computer games developers?
Something could be combining your landscape & architecture photography with 3D cars, this is common practice these days, but normally its teams of people producing it, A photographer that knows 3D technique, normally working with a 3D company specialsing in cars & products. One thing though the turnarounds are often very quick so trying to do all this yourself probably wouldnt cut it, and specialist retouchers are also key to the process.

Maybe better contacting retouching & 3D houses to get 3D work or Games companies, and stressing your love of photography will be a very important visual skill that goes hand in hand with 3D to really excel and get a more natural look and might give you the edge over someone else that too 3D led.

One final bit of advice is ditch the HRD too heavy processing, nothing says more hobbyist / amature than that!

I wish you the best of luck, definitely have some great computer 3D / general visual skills there. I believe you just need to hone them a bit more, and understand the market. Contact and speak to companies and photographers even if just for a chat, and you'll start getting a better sense of what you need to do and produce.
 
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To be honest I don't like your photographs.

That sounds very harsh doesn't it? But you won't be helped with little white lies.

But let me try and be helpful and more positive.

There are two reasons for the above statement: first, your post-processing is as subtle as a sledgehammer. LESS IS MORE. Look at what successful, prize-winning, widely admired photographers produce – do you see HDR overkill, false soft focus? No, so that's a habit you need to kick from day one. Second, your subject matter as an amateur can be whatever you want, but if you're pitching to anyone, even us, you need to stop doing sunsets and pretty pretty nature. Unless you are outrageously talented, and most of us are not, then inevitably most viewers will simply say I've seen better. Why on earth should I pay you?

So when does the positive start I hear you cry?

Well, the good news is you obviously do know how to take a photograph. You just need to start taking pictures of a much more varied and challenging form. Do some street photography, don't wait for the sunset over Grand Canyon – find some pig-ugly scene and make it interesting. Shoot some bands, food, your neighbourhood, basically anything but humming birds or jeeps.

You might want to limit yourself to a few basic post-processing options: exposure, colour temp, crop/angle and force yourself to get it right pre-processing rather than post.

In short, what you are producing at the moment is not commercial grade photography... but that certainly does not mean you aren't up to it, you might just need to rethink your approach.

I am only semi-pro, I have a few customers who provide regular work that gets me out of the office and pays for the toys. I find it very demanding, hard work and poorly paid. I do not recommend it as a full-time occupation. Others may disagree, but that is my honest feedback.

Finally, this is just my opinion and I reserve my right as a human being to be completely, horribly wrong! :-)

Finally finally, sincerely the best of luck to you. Losing a job is always horrible, but you'll bounce back.
 
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Beamengine said:
To be honest I don't like your photographs.

You are certainly entitled to that opinion. But conversely, the most expensive photo ever ($4.3 million) looks like crap to me--I don't think the photographer cares whether I like it or not, and that bank that cashed the check certianly didn't.

The point being, as others have said--it's not about being a good photographer. It's about finding people that are willing to pay for what you are willing/able to provide. It's tough, requires some luck, but is absolutely possible.

As for the nay-sayers that say "don't ruin your hobby"--although that CAN be true, it doesn't have to be true. I have had some hobbies that have been ruined by doing them for money, and I have some that have only gotten me more interested/passionate by doing them (semi-)professionally. If you think you'll love, then go for it!
 
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