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Dragon

EF 800L f/5.6, RF 800 f/11
May 29, 2019
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Oregon
how many mm of extension tube do you need on the 800mm f/11?
I get 32mm with the Vello set and 31mm with the Meke set (which is built better). Either way, it brings MFD down to around 15 ft, which improves magnification and lets me get in the place I need to be to get the best angle. The 800/11 with tubes has more magnification than the 200-800 at the same distance, likely due to more focus breathing on the zoom (and extension tubes do increase the effective focal length). I haven't tried the tubes on the zoom because they are pretty flimsy and that lens is fairly heavy. This shot is at about the same distance as the ones above, but with the 800/11 and extension tubes (all are full width).


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Dragon

EF 800L f/5.6, RF 800 f/11
May 29, 2019
1,235
1,740
Oregon
Canon does not make extension tubes for the RF mount and neither does Sony for its E-mount or Nikon for Z. Extension tubes affect the cameras calculation of lens focal length for IBIS - users in systems that allow manual input for calculating IBIS have to work out for themselves what focal length to use when adding extension tubes. So, when you are using a 3rd party extension ring with your 800/11 on your R7, you are screwing up the interplay of the camera and lens image stabilizations. I wonder if this is one reason why Canon/Nikon/Sony are not making these tubes and it is inadvisable to use them when IBIS is turned on with telephotos.
Agreed, but as you, yourself have pointed out, IBIS is likely not much in play at 800mm and my experience supports that theory. I have seen little or no difference in stabilization with the 800/11 with or without the tubes. The use case is quite limited, but I had a situation where a few feet of change in MFD made positioning easier and gave me a better shooting angle. My biggest complaint is that both the sets I bought are pretty flimsy. The MEIKE is noticeably better than the Vello, but still not something I would hang a lens as heavy as the 200-800 on. It did solve a problem at least until the 200-800 arrived. I would agree that the interaction problem is likely the reason the OEMs are not making ETs. To work correctly on shorter lenses, they would have to contain electronics that informed the camera of their presence and the math is kind of daunting if you throw a zoom into the mix due to the continuous change in the effect of the ET with change in focal length of the lens. Much less straightforward than a TC. Bottom line, we will likely not see OEM ETs for mirrorless cameras. I haven't tried the Kenko version, but one review I read made it sound just as flimsy as the ones I have. If you were shooting with an R8 or R10, the ETs would be useful with a broader spectrum of lenses, so they do have a place. Thankfully, the 200-800 mitigated my specific problem so the ETs are now mostly shelf art unless I pick up an R8 or R10, since I don't think there is any way to turn IBIS off on the R5 and R7 when using a stabilized lens unless you also turn off the lens IS.
 
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AlanF

Desperately seeking birds
CR Pro
Aug 16, 2012
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Agreed, but as you, yourself have pointed out, IBIS is likely not much in play at 800mm and my experience supports that theory. I have seen little or no difference in stabilization with the 800/11 with or without the tubes. The use case is quite limited, but I had a situation where a few feet of change in MFD made positioning easier and gave me a better shooting angle. My biggest complaint is that both the sets I bought are pretty flimsy. The MEKE is noticeably better than the Vello, but still not something I would hang a lens as heavy as the 200-800 on. It did solve a problem at least until the 200-800 arrived. I would agree that the interaction problem is likely the reason the OEMs are not making ETs. To work correctly on shorter lenses, they would have to contain electronics that informed the camera of their presence and the math is kind of daunting if you throw a zoom into the mix due to the continuous change in the effect of the ET with change in focal length of the lens. Much less straightforward than a TC. Bottom line, we will likely not see OEM ETs for mirrorless cameras. I haven't tried the Kenko version, but one review I read made it sound just as flimsy as the ones I have. If you were shooting with an R8 or R10, the ETs would be useful with a broader spectrum of lenses, so they do have a place. Thankfully, the 200-800 mitigated my specific problem so the ETs are now mostly shelf art unless I pick up an R8 or R10, since I don't think there is any way to turn IBIS off on the R5 and R7 when using a stabilized lens unless you also turn off the lens IS.
The problem is not that incorrectly calculated IBIS will not be effective but that it will work against the OS in the lens and perhaps even blur the image.
 
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Agreed, but as you, yourself have pointed out, IBIS is likely not much in play at 800mm and my experience supports that theory. I have seen little or no difference in stabilization with the 800/11 with or without the tubes. The use case is quite limited, but I had a situation where a few feet of change in MFD made positioning easier and gave me a better shooting angle. My biggest complaint is that both the sets I bought are pretty flimsy. The MEKE is noticeably better than the Vello, but still not something I would hang a lens as heavy as the 200-800 on. It did solve a problem at least until the 200-800 arrived. I would agree that the interaction problem is likely the reason the OEMs are not making ETs. To work correctly on shorter lenses, they would have to contain electronics that informed the camera of their presence and the math is kind of daunting if you throw a zoom into the mix due to the continuous change in the effect of the ET with change in focal length of the lens. Much less straightforward than a TC. Bottom line, we will likely not see OEM ETs for mirrorless cameras. I haven't tried the Kenko version, but one review I read made it sound just as flimsy as the ones I have. If you were shooting with an R8 or R10, the ETs would be useful with a broader spectrum of lenses, so they do have a place. Thankfully, the 200-800 mitigated my specific problem so the ETs are now mostly shelf art unless I pick up an R8 or R10, since I don't think there is any way to turn IBIS off on the R5 and R7 when using a stabilized lens unless you also turn off the lens IS.
I have both a Kenko and a Meike set. The Kenko is wobbly and I don't trust it but it's the shortest at 10mm so I didn't return it. The Meike set is great and last I checked the lowest priced.
 
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Dragon

EF 800L f/5.6, RF 800 f/11
May 29, 2019
1,235
1,740
Oregon
The problem is not that incorrectly calculated IBIS will not be effective but that it will work against the OS in the lens and perhaps even blur the image.
I thought that was implicit in what I said above, but a good addition for those who may not have understood.
I have both a Kenko and a Meike set. The Kenko is wobbly and I don't trust it but it's the shortest at 10mm so I didn't return it. The Meike set is great and last I checked the lowest priced.
Thanks for the confirmation on the Kenko set. Kind of surprising as Kenko has, in the past, has made pretty well built stuff. Unless those tubes are some kind of arms length deal with a Chinese manufacturer, that doesn't bode well for Tokina and by extension, Pentax.
 
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I thought that was implicit in what I said above, but a good addition for those who may not have understood.

Thanks for the confirmation on the Kenko set. Kind of surprising as Kenko has, in the past, has made pretty well built stuff. Unless those tubes are some kind of arms length deal with a Chinese manufacturer, that doesn't bode well for Tokina and by extension, Pentax.
You're right, it was very disappointing with the Kenko set. For less than 10 mm extension, I decided on a Kipon helicoid adaptor the website says up to 7 mm. So far, this is the only solution for getting ef 14mm macros. It doesn't allow communication, and the lens is f/2.8 so it might be useless for focusing on your humming birds remotely. I think they never come near a human or allow a human near them, is this correct?
 
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Dragon

EF 800L f/5.6, RF 800 f/11
May 29, 2019
1,235
1,740
Oregon
You're right, it was very disappointing with the Kenko set. For less than 10 mm extension, I decided on a Kipon helicoid adaptor the website says up to 7 mm. So far, this is the only solution for getting ef 14mm macros. It doesn't allow communication, and the lens is f/2.8 so it might be useless for focusing on your humming birds remotely. I think they never come near a human or allow a human near them, is this correct?
They come very close when new feeders are being installed. They literally buzz my wife like a swarm of bees :ROFLMAO:. I have lots of close-up feeder pics, but I try to catch them in a more natural environment in the brush where they hang out as they take turns (sort of) at the feeders. So far, I haven't had one land on the camera, but the ones that live here are not very shy. The summer visitors (mostly Rufus) are much more skittish and hard to get close to, but the resident Annas are very friendly. A few examples below. The first is with an EF 135 f/2 and the R5. The second is with the 135 and a 90D. The third is with the R5 and an EF 100-400 L II at 400mm. That is the somewhat shy (with people), but very bossy Rufus who is trying to keep everybody else off the feeder. As you can see from the first shot taken in Dec 2021, we have winter birds. All shots are uncropped, but scaled to 4k.



2W4A4905-Enhanced-NR-Edit.jpgIMG_1796-Enhanced-NR-Edit.jpg2W4A3019-Enhanced-NR-Edit-2.jpg
 
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They come very close when new feeders are being installed. They literally buzz my wife like a swarm of bees :ROFLMAO:. I have lots of close-up feeder pics, but I try to catch them in a more natural environment in the brush where they hang out as they take turns (sort of) at the feeders. So far, I haven't had one land on the camera, but the ones that live here are not very shy. The summer visitors (mostly Rufus) are much more skittish and hard to get close to, but the resident Annas are very friendly. A few examples below. The first is with an EF 135 f/2 and the R5. The second is with the 135 and a 90D. The third is with the R5 and an EF 100-400 L II at 400mm. That is the somewhat shy (with people), but very bossy Rufus who is trying to keep everybody else off the feeder. As you can see from the first shot taken in Dec 2021, we have winter birds. All shots are uncropped, but scaled to 4k.



View attachment 215031View attachment 215033View attachment 215032
So I was wrong and may have a chance to find a popular place and get something wide and close with a remote trigger? It may be unnecessary to use the helicoid and definitely difficult to choose macro focus distances at 2.8, but I think if it works, would be unique.
 
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Dragon

EF 800L f/5.6, RF 800 f/11
May 29, 2019
1,235
1,740
Oregon
So I was wrong and may have a chance to find a popular place and get something wide and close with a remote trigger? It may be unnecessary to use the helicoid and definitely difficult to choose macro focus distances at 2.8, but I think if it works, would be unique.
I think I could hang a camera close to the feeders and they would completely ignore it after a couple of days. E-shutter would be good to not disturb them with noise, but then you would have motion distortion (an actual use for global shutter, Canon is doomed :rolleyes:). Camera can be run from a phone or pad with the Canon app. I doubt you would get a whole bird in focus that close at f/2.8, but maybe. The biggest catch would be timing as those little guys move around a lot. Some patience also required :ROFLMAO:.
 
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I think I could hang a camera close to the feeders and they would completely ignore it after a couple of days. E-shutter would be good to not disturb them with noise, but then you would have motion distortion (an actual use for global shutter, Canon is doomed :rolleyes:). Camera can be run from a phone or pad with the Canon app. I doubt you would get a whole bird in focus that close at f/2.8, but maybe. The biggest catch would be timing as those little guys move around a lot. Some patience also required :ROFLMAO:.
It's quite rare for me to see them where I live and it will be only one for around 15 seconds. I think I'm doing something wrong.
Also, I am looking for an ef 11-24 f/4. The extra few mm wider and tighter max aperture will help get more bird in focus.
I'm thinking aligning the lens to be along the axis of the stigma and pollen tube and focusing about one cm closer could yield acceptable focus with luck. Does that seem reasonable?
 
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Dragon

EF 800L f/5.6, RF 800 f/11
May 29, 2019
1,235
1,740
Oregon
It's quite rare for me to see them where I live and it will be only one for around 15 seconds. I think I'm doing something wrong.
Also, I am looking for an ef 11-24 f/4. The extra few mm wider and tighter max aperture will help get more bird in focus.
I'm thinking aligning the lens to be along the axis of the stigma and pollen tube and focusing about one cm closer could yield acceptable focus with luck. Does that seem reasonable?
Sounds reasonable, but also sounds like you need to attract some more birds. Be aware that they prefer the all plastic and glass feeders. Anything with metal that contacts the nectar will put them off. If you have planting room, they love hummingbird bushes and I have a sage plant in the spice planter that has purple flowers that they seem to like a lot. See below. I have noticed that they are less approachable around flowers than they are at the feeders, for what that is worth.

Picture shot before I got the R7. Note that when you take all the scale factors into account, the illumination (and magnification) per pixel is almost identical between the R5 with 1.4 TC and the R7 w/o the TC. Performance is very similar, but the R7 package is lighter and slightly less CA w/o the TC.

R5, 800 f/11 + 1.4x TC @ ISO 2500, f/16, 1/800 s uncropped, scaled to 4k

2W4A6330-Enhanced-NR-Edit.jpg
 
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Dragon

EF 800L f/5.6, RF 800 f/11
May 29, 2019
1,235
1,740
Oregon
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