Show your Bird Portraits

@Steve & Keith:

I think you guys are conflating the purpose of having good equipment with who might potentially view your work down the road. As a photographer, we generally don't think: Oh, I can get away with using this crappy soft lens because no one who ever views my work would ever know. That's just inane. :P

Having a good lens is about eliminating the limits of your equipment, making YOU yourself the limit. I also still don't think you guys fully understand how good the Mark II supertele lenses are. The older 600/4 L lens produces visibly softer results than the 600/4 L II lens. It produced softer results than the 800/5.6, where as the new 600/4 L II produces sharper results than the 800/5.6 when used WITH the 1.4x TC III. You don't realize the differences until you've actually tried it. I thought my 100-400mm L was excellent...and it does produce sharp results...but as good as it is, it still doesn't compare to what the 600 can do...and at 840mm no less. Using this lens means that you, the photographer, become the limiting factor on resolving power.

As for whether the differences can be realized? Yes, they can. Absolutely! How often have you not been able to get as close as you need to fully maximize the pixels of your sensor at 300mm? At 420mm? Or even at 560mm? Even if you do fill the frame on an APS-C, does your IQ compare to that of a frame-filled FF?

I can use 1200mm f/8, with fast focus, on a full frame camera, and get away with shots that would normally scare birds off. Egrets and herons are jittery birds...you break their comfort bubble, they are gone. I could get this kind of framing with my 7D...but I could never get this kind of IQ...and certainly not from the distances I'm getting it at now. (These photos aren't the kind I usually share, the lighting on this day was TERRIBLE, resulting in high DR on my subjects, but they are some of the few I recently captured at 1200mm f/8, so just to demonstrate the point):

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Thanks to having a very long lens that is actually able to perform AF reliably, quickly, and consistently at f/8, I was able to pack on the pixels in this shot. I did not have to get so close to the bird that it took flight in fear. I was actually able to stay at a very comfortable distance, which allowed the birds to maintain their natural behavior and comfort levels. And this is all at f/8...a diffraction limited lens is still resolving a ton of detail. The 7D AF at 840 f/5.6 also doesn't even perform as well as the 5D III AF at f/8.

So, I'm sorry, but you can't tell me that the differences are small. :P It's not just about IQ, although that's the key factor. It's about raw capability, it's about achieving things at a high level otherwise not achievable with lesser gear, it's about eliminating the limits your gear imposes on you, forcing you yourself to become the limitation (and that, my friends, is something eminently remediable. ;))

I also do believe that people can tell the difference. I had sharp results with my 100-400, and I always received compliments for that from people who see my work. However, I ALSO get compliments akin to "Wow! Your work was always sharp, but this is even more amazing!" since I've started using the 600. Your average viewer isn't oblivious to detail...they do notice it, and many can and do tell the difference, even if they don't know exactly what's causing it or where it's coming from, even when they are not photographers. Many also notice other differences...for example, I received some comments about my background blur when using the 100-400...however since switching to the 600, people notice more how clean and smooth the backgrounds usually are. Or, conversely, they recognize how isolated and enhanced the birds or wildlife are because of the creamy backgrounds (even if they don't recognize that its the difference in DOF and background blur that's causing them to notice the subject more), with comments like: "Wow! The birds just pop right out of your photographs now!"
 
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Man, I don't know how many times or how many ways I can say this but I understand that the 600 is a very good lens!!! You don't need to keep posting specs. Is it $10,000 better than my Sigma 300-800? I don't think it is but maybe that's because my entire income last year was just under the purchase price of a new 600mm f4 IS II. I might feel differently if I were a trust-funder, retired engineer or one of the handful of professional full time wildlife photographers and money was utterly meaningless but, for me, the 300-800 is fantastic, especially for how much I paid for it. I get really good results with it - in my maybe not so humble opinion, better results than the majority of 500/600 vII owners I've met in the field.

My bottleneck for photography at this point is not gear related. I have more than enough reach at 800mm to do what I want and get tight framing on birds. I can go to 1120mm f8 with a 1.4x if I need it, but in all honesty if I need to do that its probably not a picture worth taking 9 times out of 10. Like Kieth was saying, I've found the zoom to be really useful. A lot of my most recent shorebird photos were zoomed out to <600mm because if you know how to approach you can get pretty close to a lot of birds. I've got more than enough sharpness. I wouldn't mind my AF being a bit quicker but I get a majority of keepers. My bottleneck right now is time and travel expenses.

If I could afford to take more time in the field and go to more locations my photography would improve far more than anything the 600 vII could give me. As it is I barely have any opportunities to shoot. I've had this 300-800 for a few months now and I've only been able to take it out a few times. Time and travel are much more important than gear improvements at this level. Would you rather have my setup and all the time you wanted in Yellowstone/Thailand/New Zealand/Africa/wherever or your setup in an urban backyard? Hell, I'd rather have my setup and a month to just drive around my state than sit at home with a some totally baller gear pointed at my fence.
 
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Steve said:
Man, I don't know how many times or how many ways I can say this but I understand that the 600 is a very good lens!!! You don't need to keep posting specs. Is it $10,000 better than my Sigma 300-800? I don't think it is but maybe that's because my entire income last year was just under the purchase price of a new 600mm f4 IS II. I might feel differently if I were a trust-funder, retired engineer or one of the handful of professional full time wildlife photographers and money was utterly meaningless but, for me, the 300-800 is fantastic, especially for how much I paid for it. I get really good results with it - in my maybe not so humble opinion, better results than the majority of 500/600 vII owners I've met in the field.

My bottleneck for photography at this point is not gear related. I have more than enough reach at 800mm to do what I want and get tight framing on birds. I can go to 1120mm f8 with a 1.4x if I need it, but in all honesty if I need to do that its probably not a picture worth taking 9 times out of 10. Like Kieth was saying, I've found the zoom to be really useful. A lot of my most recent shorebird photos were zoomed out to <600mm because if you know how to approach you can get pretty close to a lot of birds. I've got more than enough sharpness. I wouldn't mind my AF being a bit quicker but I get a majority of keepers. My bottleneck right now is time and travel expenses.

If I could afford to take more time in the field and go to more locations my photography would improve far more than anything the 600 vII could give me. As it is I barely have any opportunities to shoot. I've had this 300-800 for a few months now and I've only been able to take it out a few times. Time and travel are much more important than gear improvements at this level. Would you rather have my setup and all the time you wanted in Yellowstone/Thailand/New Zealand/Africa/wherever or your setup in an urban backyard? Hell, I'd rather have my setup and a month to just drive around my state than sit at home with a some totally baller gear pointed at my fence.

First, I was mostly responding to Keith, not you. Second, I thought you guys were using the 120-300. If you have the 300-800, then that's definitely a different story. My mistake, although I think an honest one.

Isn't that an $8000 lens in and of itself? I don't think the differences between that particular lens and the EF 600/4 II are going to be that large. If you have that, then I'd say there is no reason to move to any Canon great white, as your already using stellar equipment. I think the differences between a 120-300 with TC's is definitely going to be visible, but that's a MUCH shorter lens, and TCs do degrade quality.

If you were using the 100-400mm, or either of the 150-600mm lenses, then I would say that going to either the Sigma 300-800 or the 600/4 II would result in a pretty significant increase in IQ. Not just because the lenses are sharper, but because with the longer focal length options, you can magnify the subject more, and put more pixels on subject. Pixels on subject makes a huge difference. It's why the 150-600mm lenses will be ideal budget birder lenses...at 200mm longer than the Canon 100-400, they will be putting 2.25x more pixels on subject. That's significant. It means fine details show up better, it means noise shrinks relative to detail, making noise easier to manage. Paired with APS-C bodies, I think the 150-600mm lenses will become kings of the budget birders. :) I also don't think it will matter how sharp Canon may make any 100-400 II...the difference in pixels on subject is really going to create a divide between those who use the 150-600's and those who stick with the 100-400 range (or 80-400 on the Nikon side).

This same pixels on subject factor is one of the benefits of using long glass on full frame cameras, too. The 600 with either 1.4x or 2x TCs gets more pixels on subject. You might reduce total light levels to the same as a 7D with an 840mm lens, but there are more pixels in total, so the IQ of a shot made at 1200mm f/8 FF is still going to be better than at 840mm f/5.6 APS-C. Noise levels will be roughly the same...but the image with more pixels will be more detailed, and on a normalized basis, sharper.
 
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Are you guys really having the 'skill trumps kit' and 'X kit doesn't provide 10x better images than Y so isn't worth 10x as much'?

Clearly both skill and kit matter. The more benign the conditions, the more forgiving the situation of lower-priced equipment. And you can't make objective comparisons of price and quality - people's budgets, levels of perfectionism, and patience vary hugely. I am very lucky to have a mark II supertele, and I don't look down on anyone who doesn't. But for me, it means I'm rarely limited by the lens. Incidentally I chose the 500 over the 600 because for me the extra 30% in price wasn't worth it for another 100mm.
 
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Jack Douglas said:
I agree, let's keep it more light-hearted and less competitive and mainly about birds.

Jack

Fair enough. I can get a bit of a chip on my shoulder about it. Not saying I've seen it around here, but there are definitely bird photo sites with members that do look down on people who can't afford the top of the line.

Oh and jrista - yeah the Sigma retails new for almost $8k but I got mine for $2500. Sometimes there are benefits to the low resale value of third party gear!

Cassins Finch by No Small Wave, on Flickr
 
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Steve said:
Oh and jrista - yeah the Sigma retails new for almost $8k but I got mine for $2500. Sometimes there are benefits to the low resale value of third party gear!

WOW! Your a lucky bastard. :D I did not actually pay full price for my 600...I got it off a Canadian site for $10,800 (and that was back when the list price was still $12,999). Still, $2500 for a lens that natively reaches 800mm f/5.6 is really freakin good.
 
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Steve said:
...Snip!

Oh and jrista - yeah the Sigma retails new for almost $8k but I got mine for $2500. Sometimes there are benefits to the low resale value of third party gear!

Really lovely Finch there, Steve!
And you managed to get a mighty good price on that used 300-800mm! Here it would be in the range of $3300 to $3400, but they are darn tough to spot on the market. Few know about it, fewer need it, and even less of it are circulating around between the shops and on the birding forums here.
 
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rpt said:
Keith_Reeder said:
Mr Bean, would you mind letting me know what ISO that image was taken at?
I am going to hazard a guess - Me thinks >= ISO 8000

From a cropping perspective, this is the original, image. I would have used the 1.4x TC but the light was low as it was (1/125 @ f4.5 ISO 400 - using a tripod as a monopod, one leg extended, as I was moving around and no time for the tripod setup).

yyiIjFZA0rr7dmkySHd_gN79tXTwTsbaxEU78v6M1WM=w1000-h667-no
 
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Mr Bean said:
rpt said:
Keith_Reeder said:
Mr Bean, would you mind letting me know what ISO that image was taken at?
I am going to hazard a guess - Me thinks >= ISO 8000

From a cropping perspective, this is the original, image. I would have used the 1.4x TC but the light was low as it was (1/125 @ f4.5 ISO 400 - using a tripod as a monopod, one leg extended, as I was moving around and no time for the tripod setup).

yyiIjFZA0rr7dmkySHd_gN79tXTwTsbaxEU78v6M1WM=w1000-h667-no

Given the noise increase with cropping, I'd offer that using the 1.4x TC would have still been better. Even a 2x TC would have been better. You wouldn't gain or necessarily even lose anything on the per-pixel noise front...however you would have gained considerably on the detail front. More detail (i.e. larger in the frame, more pixels on subject) and the bird and background would both handle NR more effectively.

When you have low light and will ultimately have to crop to the middle 25% or less of the frame, there is no real benefit to doing that if you have a TC (or the ability to zoom with a zoom lens.) If you don't have any issued maintaining the stability of the lens, the mere increase in pixels on the target can actually translate into a significant gain, as you then may have the option of downsampling your crop.
 
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Mr Bean said:
rpt said:
Keith_Reeder said:
Mr Bean, would you mind letting me know what ISO that image was taken at?
I am going to hazard a guess - Me thinks >= ISO 8000

From a cropping perspective, this is the original, image. I would have used the 1.4x TC but the light was low as it was (1/125 @ f4.5 ISO 400 - using a tripod as a monopod, one leg extended, as I was moving around and no time for the tripod setup).

yyiIjFZA0rr7dmkySHd_gN79tXTwTsbaxEU78v6M1WM=w1000-h667-no

Was that on the 5D3? ISO 400 seems low to me. I'd recommend ETTR by using a higher ISO then darkening in post, which can actually help reduce (the appearance of) noise overall. A lovely capture anyhow :)
 
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Thanks for the feedback jrista and scyrene. For most of the morning I did have the 1.4x TC on the 300mm. But I was walking out of a canyon area (late in the afternoon), where I'd been photographing a waterfall, as a long'ish exposure, hence the tripod (I normally use a monpod for birding). As I walked out, I fitted the 300mm, just in case I saw anything interesting. I did think at the time, I should put the 1.4x on. Oh well, next time ;)

scyrene said:
Was that on the 5D3? ISO 400 seems low to me. I'd recommend ETTR by using a higher ISO then darkening in post, which can actually help reduce (the appearance of) noise overall. A lovely capture anyhow :)
As it is, I tend to use ETTR by exposing 1/3 to 1/2 a stop over. One of my custom settings (for birding) is set to a center focus point, spot metering, with an ISO of 400 (for me, when using the 300mm it's a balance between using a higher ISO and cropping, if that makes sense). In the case of a quick bird shot, I can turn the dial to the custom setting (it's C3, meaning, I can turn the dial without looking, knowing what the setup is). That's the reason for the ISO 400. It was a rather quick reaction :)
 
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