Some Canon Mirrorless Talk [CR2]

[Don Haines]

What kind of arguments are these?? Don is right, there are too many variables when it comes to battery life. CIPA is just a guide number. It's not the bible of batteries (or is it? ??? ), some people can squeeze out more juice than others depending on shooting style. Just use the CIPA standard to figure out how many batteries you'll likely need and move on. If you have 2 DSLR batteries like the LP-E6 you'll probably need 4 EOS M ones. If you need more shots maybe you should stick to the DSLR as its more efficient. Who shoots over 1000 shots in a day with their EOS M anyway?? Well done if you do, I kinda want to shake your hand!

I miss the good old days when we argued about UV filers and FF vs crop

The most batteries I have consumed in a day's shooting (stills and video) is 3. That's why there are three spares in my bag. It really does not matter how many shots you get per battery in your particular shooting style with your camera(s) and your choice of lenses. What matters is that you have more batteries than you need.

Warm weather = 1 more battery than I think I need
Cold weather= 2-3 more than I think I need

Very wise, batteries don't last as long when they are cold....

In cold weather my spare batteries are in a pocket on the inside of my coat..... but I am sure that they quickly drop down below freezing when they go into the camera....

BTW, one of the things I like about Canon is how prevalent the LP-E6 is..... There are a lot of cameras that it fits!

 

[TAF]

SL1 becomes basically a full frame mirrorless.

including the registration distance for the EF mount does not really add any to the size of a camera, if there is a grip.

Keep the price in the same range as the SL1, and they'll get my money.
[truncated]

A FF (full frame!) mirrorless camera in a pricerange of the SL1?
Man, I'd really like to get what you take.

Sorry, for beeing offensive, but if the cheapest Canon FF DSLR offering in the market is at about 1.400,- €/$
you cannot expect them to cut off some 1.000,- €/$ in a mirrorless offer.

Please wake up!

No offense taken.

I guess I haven't been keeping up - my recollection (which may be in error) was that the SL-1 was introduced at around $1K. Perhaps I recall incorrectly, but that was the range I was imagining (similar to the EOS-M's introductory price of around $800).

I see the SL-1 is now down under $500. That would be a bit low for a FF.

Although one can hope

 

[Maximilian]

No offense taken.

Thank you.

I guess I haven't been keeping up - my recollection (which may be in error) was that the SL-1 was introduced at around $1K. Perhaps I recall incorrectly, but that was the range I was imagining (similar to the EOS-M's introductory price of around $800).

I see the SL-1 is now down under $500. That would be a bit low for a FF.

Although one can hope

AFAI can remember the camera was introduced at about 650 to 700 $/€, and I believe that was with 18-55 STM kit lens included. Here in Germany you can get it with kit lens for about 400,- €.

 

[AvTvM]

Fact 1: Sony A7R II

snipped right there.
we're talking canon and canon technology. try to pay attention or go join SAR. so that babble isn't fact here.
and you conveniently ignored everything.
including the fact that DPAF sensors are quite different than what sony foists on people.
so when you are ready to come back to reality .. still try to explain how you are going to get a CANON full frame DPAF sensor that right now runs at 260 shots on a 1DX Mark II to hit 500 shots.

oh, looks like Canon Defense League is out of arguments and has to resort to personal attacks. Nothing new around here.

The facts i stated are facts. And I am Canon customer ... with currently 3 Canon cameras and a number of lenses, most of which cost much more and are much heavier to lug around than I would like. I am not paid by Canon or by Sony for posting on internet forums. And I have as much right to post my opinion and speculations here as everybody else does. I have even more right ot post facts related to Canon products and related competitor products. Just deal with it, Canon Defense League [aka "Canon fanboys"].

Since Sony [Leica does not exist in my world] is currently the only vendor of FF mirrorless cameras, their products are the benchmark and current "gold standard" against which all and any possible future Canon entries into this market segment - undoubtedly then termed "the future of photography" by Canon ;D - will be measured.

Personally I don't care, how a camera achieves AF, as long as it happens rapidly and precisely and I have a User Interface that gives me full and intuitive control over *where* the plane of focus is in my captures ... Canon Eye Control AF v2.0 .. where is it?

While DP-AF holds some theoretical promise, Canon has not yet been able to deliver (Live-View) DP-AF performance superior to the hybrid CD+PD-AF systems implemented in Sony mirrorless cameras like A6000, A6300, A7 II series or some Fuji and Olympus offerings. To me DP-AF certainly does not look like the holy grail of AF systems. Especially if it turns out that DP-AF sensors are battery drainers. A rating of only 260 shots for Canon 1DX2 in liveview sounds really dismal to me (if true).

Anyway, I would consider it "fail", if future/possible Canon FF-sensor mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras - as well as future emanations of Sony (A7 III, A9?) or other brand's MILCS - would not come with a 14+ Whrs battery that allows for 500+ shots in "regular use". Not in antarctic freezer temperatures or in otherwise extreme usage scenarios ... but "in regular use" = as encountered by >90% of "regular" users more than 90% of the time.

 

[AvTvM]

BTW, one of the things I like about Canon is how prevalent the LP-E6 is..... There are a lot of cameras that it fits!

Yep!
LP-E6 and latest emanation LP-E6N got good power density ... a bit better than similarly sized batteries used by Sony [NP-FM500H] or Nikon [EN-EL15 ].

Size & weight of these 14Whr batteries is not only acceptable for fat mirrorslappers but would also fit into a MILC handgrip only slightly chunkier than EOS M3. Which would be acceptable to me, if it were to power my next camera ... Canon! mirrorless! FF! 8) ... for a solid 500+ shots in "regular use" in "moderate climate conditions".

 

[Zv]

In the last two years I've had to change batteries (as in it was going to die) only once while on a shoot. That was a studio setting with my 6D connected to my iPad via WiFi. After about two hours of shooting I noticed the iPad getting a bit laggy then it hit me -hey maybe I should change the camera battery! By that point the shoot was nearly over but a fresh battery in the bag saved the day.

Can't recall any other time outside of weddings where one LP-E6 wasn't sufficient. Man those things just keep on going for days even!

One day I will be so impressed with myself for using all three of my batteries in one day! Not looking forward to organizing that collection on Lightroom but impressed all the same!

 

[Woody]

I am curious if Canon is really going to offer a FF mirrorless camera.

And if they do, will it come equipped with dual-pixel AF and touchscreen, complete with AF servo in multishot mode (like 80D)?

What about on-board flash and built-in EVF?

Curious mind wonders....

 

[Loswr]

You can do better than that.

Well, slapping your mirror too frequently and too hard can apparently lead to social problems. I guess we should view his search for the perfect MILC FOR HIS EVERY NEED as a mental cry for help.

 

[rrcphoto]

Fact 1: Sony A7R II

snipped right there.
we're talking canon and canon technology. try to pay attention or go join SAR. so that babble isn't fact here.
and you conveniently ignored everything.
including the fact that DPAF sensors are quite different than what sony foists on people.
so when you are ready to come back to reality .. still try to explain how you are going to get a CANON full frame DPAF sensor that right now runs at 260 shots on a 1DX Mark II to hit 500 shots.

oh, looks like Canon Defense League is out of arguments and has to resort to personal attacks. Nothing new around here.

nope, more like .. common sense defense league something you lack.

an LP-6N will not get anywhere close to 500 CIPA with a DPAF sensor. that is fact. on the 80D it only gets 220 shots, on the 1dx Mark II and it's huge battery only 260 shots full frame.

you keep skirting around that. you ignore common sense and facts and then will be the first one to sit in your little corner and snivel.

what's funny is you quoted me and STILL didn't answer how you expect a DPAF sensor to get that with the LP-E6N battery.

 

[rrcphoto]

I am curious if Canon is really going to offer a FF mirrorless camera.

And if they do, will it come equipped with dual-pixel AF and touchscreen, complete with AF servo in multishot mode (like 80D)?

What about on-board flash and built-in EVF?

Curious mind wonders....

I honestly doubt it, they don't seem to have the power management under control yet.

it could be that DiGiC 7 will provide the necessary power / performance boost necessary (supposedly it processes 14x the data as DiGiC 6)

however with an EVF, touchscreen, DPAF,etc it's looking like it would be quite a poor CIPA rating (easily sub 200 shots)

 

[Don Haines]

Fact 1: Sony A7R II

snipped right there.
we're talking canon and canon technology. try to pay attention or go join SAR. so that babble isn't fact here.
and you conveniently ignored everything.
including the fact that DPAF sensors are quite different than what sony foists on people.
so when you are ready to come back to reality .. still try to explain how you are going to get a CANON full frame DPAF sensor that right now runs at 260 shots on a 1DX Mark II to hit 500 shots.

oh, looks like Canon Defense League is out of arguments and has to resort to personal attacks. Nothing new around here.

nope, more like .. common sense defense league something you lack.

an LP-6N will not get anywhere close to 500 CIPA with a DPAF sensor. that is fact. on the 80D it only gets 220 shots, on the 1dx Mark II and it's huge battery only 260 shots full frame.

you keep skirting around that. you ignore common sense and facts and then will be the first one to sit in your little corner and snivel.

what's funny is you quoted me and STILL didn't answer how you expect a DPAF sensor to get that with the LP-E6N battery.

It's not just Canon.... on any DSLR you get considerably less shots per battery in "live view" than you get in the normal viewfinder mode, and this number should be LESS than a mirrorless camera of equivalent circuitry because for most of the time, the mirror mechanism will be energized and sucking back power and instead of powering up a large display on the back of the camera, you are powering up a tiny EVF on the mirrorless.

So the answer is YES, the CIPA numbers for mirrorless cameras are better than the CIPA numbers for DSLRs in live view, and the reason has little to do with sensors and processors, but a lot to do with electro-mechanical mirror systems and large rear displays. Take any of those DSLRs, remove the mirror, and view through an EVF, and you should see a considerable improvement in the numbers.

It is very hard to compare apples and oranges and get meaningful results....

 

[rrcphoto]

Fact 1: Sony A7R II

snipped right there.
we're talking canon and canon technology. try to pay attention or go join SAR. so that babble isn't fact here.
and you conveniently ignored everything.
including the fact that DPAF sensors are quite different than what sony foists on people.
so when you are ready to come back to reality .. still try to explain how you are going to get a CANON full frame DPAF sensor that right now runs at 260 shots on a 1DX Mark II to hit 500 shots.

oh, looks like Canon Defense League is out of arguments and has to resort to personal attacks. Nothing new around here.

nope, more like .. common sense defense league something you lack.

an LP-6N will not get anywhere close to 500 CIPA with a DPAF sensor. that is fact. on the 80D it only gets 220 shots, on the 1dx Mark II and it's huge battery only 260 shots full frame.

you keep skirting around that. you ignore common sense and facts and then will be the first one to sit in your little corner and snivel.

what's funny is you quoted me and STILL didn't answer how you expect a DPAF sensor to get that with the LP-E6N battery.

It's not just Canon.... on any DSLR you get considerably less shots per battery in "live view" than you get in the normal viewfinder mode, and this number should be LESS than a mirrorless camera of equivalent circuitry because for most of the time, the mirror mechanism will be energized and sucking back power and instead of powering up a large display on the back of the camera, you are powering up a tiny EVF on the mirrorless.

So the answer is YES, the CIPA numbers for mirrorless cameras are better than the CIPA numbers for DSLRs in live view, and the reason has little to do with sensors and processors, but a lot to do with electro-mechanical mirror systems and large rear displays. Take any of those DSLRs, remove the mirror, and view through an EVF, and you should see a considerable improvement in the numbers.

It is very hard to compare apples and oranges and get meaningful results....

well, it's still hard to judge. a case and point would be the T6 versus the M3, same sensor, processor, liveview and battery. the only difference is a higher GN flash.

it's 180 versus 250. however shot to shot the T6 is quicker than the M3.

however, you have to counter that by if the camera has an EVF, that draws more than a back LCD as well.

however the person i was debating with suggested that canon would magically double performance and that it was easily technically possible.

 

[Loswr]

... instead of powering up a large display on the back of the camera, you are powering up a tiny EVF on the mirrorless.

Sorry, Don…you seem to be suggesting that the rear LCD takes more power than the EVF, when the opposite is actually true. For example, the a7RII gets (based on CIPA) 290 shots with the viewfinder, 340 shots with the rear LCD.

That 'tiny EVF' is a powersucker.

 

[Don Haines]

... instead of powering up a large display on the back of the camera, you are powering up a tiny EVF on the mirrorless.

Sorry, Don…you seem to be suggesting that the rear LCD takes more power than the EVF, when the opposite is actually true. For example, the a7RII gets (based on CIPA) 290 shots with the viewfinder, 340 shots with the rear LCD.

That 'tiny EVF' is a powersucker.

I thought it was the opposite, and the EVF used less power to run, but the camera used a higher refresh rate on the EVF so there was more processor drain..... But I am probably wrong on that one.....

However you slice it, we ( or at least I) don't know enough details about how things are done in the various cameras to make valid power comparisons and until we see a Canon mirrorless DSLR running off of an LP-E6 battery, we will not be able to compare battery life against a DSLR running the same battery....

 

[TeT]

If Matt Damon can drive a space buggy all the way around Mars on a LP-E6N, than I am sure Canon can get 423 shots out of one.

Right, that really happened right???

Anyways... I would assume that one of the many possible things holding up Canon on the FF mirrorless release was being comfortable with the battery life in all modes. I would assume that they somewhat conquered it...

We shall see...

 

[AvTvM]

@rrcphoto: i don't want Canon DP-AF. So far [Live-View] AF performance on Canon DP-AF cameras is inferior to Sony/Fuji/Oly AF performance. If it is really true that DP-AF also sucks power like mad, then Canon better abandon it. Not needed.

500+ Shots on a 14Whrs battery charge with an FF MILC is easily possible. Including "Retina"-EVF and 5-axis in-body stabilizer. really looking forward to what Sony A9 will deliver. Yes, they can.
*Ca-non can-not.* 8)

 

[TeT]

@rrcphoto: i don't want Canon DP-AF. So far [Live-View] AF performance on Canon DP-AF cameras is inferior to Sony/Fuji/Oly AF performance. If it is really true that DP-AF also sucks power like mad, then Canon better abandon it. Not needed.

500+ Shots on a 14Whrs battery charge with an FF MILC is easily possible. Including "Retina"-EVF and 5-axis in-body stabilizer. really looking forward to what Sony A9 will deliver. Yes, they can.
*Ca-non can-not.* 8)

Sony has never done more than poor on battery life with mirrorless... great camera and all, but lets have some semblance of reality....

 

[AvTvM]

Sony has never done more than poor on battery life with mirrorless... great camera and all, but lets have some semblance of reality....

that's what I'm saying: Sony should use a real battery [14+ Whrs] rather than the toys currently used. Same goes for Canon ... EOS M series also uses whimpy batteries. M3 grip just a bit chunkier and a proper LP-E6N would fit nicely. 500+ shots. Skip DP-AF if all it can do is drain the battery.

 

[Maximilian]

Hey, Guys!

Could we come to the agreement that a mirrorless systems should be able to reach 500+ shots, whether by using bigger batteries or more efficient components.

I understand that discussing over far from reality CIPA numbers or 14Wh over XY Wh or which component inside a Camera is consuming more energy is some kind of fun. But fun ends when it becomes personal.

Otherwise I'd propose a motion for renaming this thread to "Energy Wasting Mud Fight over Canon Mirrorless Waste Of Energy [CR0]"

(Of course I know that some people like mud fights, either watching or participating )

 

[eosuser1234]

EVF powered by Solar.
Runs off battery when dark.
My solar paper YOLK solar cells are a nice matte black, that could be made into the camera body shell.