Still no news about a Canon shift in sensor fabrication?

[pedro]

Was just browsing the net and didn't find any news about a probable sensor fabrication shift (from 500 to 180 nm) by Canon for its newest camera body. Can it be expected by 2014 along with a rumored 7DII? Stumbled upon an older but intresting thread at this forum instead
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=10545.0

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

The reference topic was based on someone at Chipworks speculation.

Of course, it will happen some day, and might have already happened without any fanfare, but it was pure speculation or a guess, with no indication that Chipworks actually had information.

Chipworks does not get information from Canon, they purchase products and analyze them for a stiff fee. Their analysis is used to find patent violations so patent holders can collect.

 

[pedro]

Thanks, MtSpokane this gives somes additional insight in procedures like these.
Here's some stuff from DPR
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51771778

By the look of things, the 70D is still using an off-sensor ADC (analog-to-digital converter).
This means that DR will be limited to 11 stops as on all current Canon cameras.
This limitation is determined by the off-sensor ADC and Canon cannot 'fix' it - unless they switch to on-sensor ADCs as Sony/Toshiba/Aptina.

"So, no change in DR compared to previous cameras.

As for ISO/noise: Canon themselves claim that ISO/noise performance in RAW will be 'on par' with the 60D. They did mention better color reproduction, though.

We have to look at RAW samples to verify the 'on par' claim.
By looking at the posted samples, I'd say that ISO/noise might be slightly improved.
It would be a 5DII->5DIII type of improvement, though, nothing major ... unfortunately.

So, there you have it: no change in DR, slightly better ISO/noise, and better color reproduction.
This is what you can expect from the 70D image quality - as compared to the 60D."

 

[pedro]

Thank you, Ankorwatt. Guess I missed this one. So I hope, they come up with something similar at a lower cost and even more improved within the next 4 to 5 years, once the 5DIV or the 5DV (or whatever they may call it by then) is released. What is the reason for the higher internal cost at Canon? March 2011 hurricane?

 

[x-vision]

The big unknown at this time is whether Canon will use the same sensor in the 7DII or not.

If the 7DII has the same sensor as the 70D, Canon will have a hard time, IMO, convincing people to spend more on the 7DII.
The 70D specs are quite good already, so why bother?

It would be a completely different story, though, if the 7DII has better image quality than the 70D.

So, it makes more sense for Canon to put a better sensor in the 7DII - but who knows what they will actually do.

 

[pedro]

Thank you so much for contributing. Very helpful information. I wish Canon could come down to an agreement with Sony. But doing their own stuff prevents from dependence on externale suppliers, so they might take their time developping their own version of an enhanced sensor tech.

 

[Hannes]

I never think it is healthy depending on your competition for vital parts. Just look at the apple/samsung cpu production story

 

[hamada]

sony is making 63% of it´s profit from insurance these days.

the electronic part of sony is a money grave.

it´s more and more likely sony will split off or even sell the electronics department.
canon would be dumb to depend on sony for sensor manufacturing in the long run.

and i have not much trust in the sony DSLR system either.

sony may has invested the most in manufacturing plants... but it does not PAY.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/28/business/global/sonys-bread-and-butter-its-not-electronics.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[AprilForever]

The big unknown at this time is whether Canon will use the same sensor in the 7DII or not.

If the 7DII has the same sensor as the 70D, Canon will have a hard time, IMO, convincing people to spend more on the 7DII.
The 70D specs are quite good already, so why bother?

It would be a completely different story, though, if the 7DII has better image quality than the 70D.

So, it makes more sense for Canon to put a better sensor in the 7DII - but who knows what they will actually do.

If the 7D mk II is only as good as the 70D, then upgrading from the 7D mk I seems much less interesting...

However, if they put some special AF sauce in it, and make the body better sealed, and maybe e'en make the grip like the 5D III, then...

 

[pj1974]

If the rumours that the 7DmkII include something 'ground-breaking' - I am hoping it is it's IQ - which would mean a new sensor, and hopefully with an improved sensor manufacturing process - that would lead to less noise, greater DR, few banding issues, etc. However the 7D's sensor is not as bad as some people make it out to be.

I love my 7D. Sure, there are other aspects about the 7D that could be improved upon (eg ability to focus with less light, and somewhat improved AF consistency - especially with Live View) - but as a whole package it's an awesome DSLR, and that's why I bought it soon after it was released.

Of course technique and glass also are very important. But as far as buying a DSLR body I haven't looked back from purchasing the 7D. The thousands of quality photos I've captured with it are worth it to me. Even today there are still many landscape, macro, wildlife, portrait, event photos that I take which discerning people are very happy with.

Roll on technology improvements and competition!

Paul

 

[Skulker]

No rumors of a change to talk about so

1) Canon will have to go on producing some of the best Cameras out there ... and...
2) all those who complain about Canon making announcements well ahead of introductions will have less to complain about (but it wont stop them) ....and....
3) others will be speculating about all sorts of rubbish.

Me? apart from bemusement about some of the things I read, I'll be taking photos.

 

[Don Haines]

Canon buy sensors from them selves to a higher price than from companies outside, this is a internal decision, Canon have invested lot of money and prestige in their own sensor lines, today there are a number of dedicated sensor manufacturers who have come much further in the cmos process than Canon and can keep lower price/unit than Canon can. An example is Sony who makes the best mobile units today and also sensors up to 24x36mm

And none of us know what agreements are in place between companies. For all we know, to get Nikon as a client, Sony could have signed an agreement that they would not sell particular components to Canon.... We photographers can speculate all we want as to why things are the way they are, but we will never know all the factors involved.

 

[yakman]

If you read the 70D Canon China news release,
the following is Google translate result
http://translate.google.com/translate?langpair=auto%7Cen&u=http://www.canon.com.cn/news/products/2013/pr_2013_07_02-12_00_00.html

"In the semiconductor manufacturing process, while improving fine processing technology, each pixel arranged on the surface to improve the collection efficiency of the micro lens, and shortens the distance between the photodiode and improve the photoelectric conversion efficiency of the photodiode. It also improved the pixel transistors, in more than 20 million pixels at the same time achieve a high sensitivity, low noise and wide dynamic range. Approximately 20.2 million effective pixels amount of data can be achieved under the 300dpi A3 format printout, cut out the image locally you will not lose a sense of resolution, etc., with a variety of advantages. "

I can read Chinese. It sounds to me a new fabrication process. Though we have to wait and see.
Btw, the ISO 3200 sample doesn't look bad

 

[pedro]

If you read the 70D Canon China news release,
the following is Google translate result
http://translate.google.com/translate?langpair=auto%7Cen&u=http://www.canon.com.cn/news/products/2013/pr_2013_07_02-12_00_00.html

"In the semiconductor manufacturing process, while improving fine processing technology, each pixel arranged on the surface to improve the collection efficiency of the micro lens, and shortens the distance between the photodiode and improve the photoelectric conversion efficiency of the photodiode. It also improved the pixel transistors, in more than 20 million pixels at the same time achieve a high sensitivity, low noise and wide dynamic range. Approximately 20.2 million effective pixels amount of data can be achieved under the 300dpi A3 format printout, cut out the image locally you will not lose a sense of resolution, etc., with a variety of advantages. "

I can read Chinese. It sounds to me a new fabrication process. Though we have to wait and see.
Btw, the ISO 3200 sample doesn't look bad

@yakman: thanks for this post and your ability to read Chinese. So, this opens a window to my question. I almost thought of an obsolote thread while starting it. But there was no trolling intended. As it has to do with taking a guess about Canon's further product releases in about six years from now, when I plan to replace my absolutely excellent 5D3. As a strictly non-flash amateur photographer IQ at very lowlight and extremely high ISOs is the most demanding part. I frequently take pictures at ISO 12800, 25600 and dare to take some of them even at ISO 51200, and if I am absolutely insane for a moment at 102400 as well ;-) So any improvement which materializes in one of the upcoming camera bodies makes me glad, as it serves as a forecast of what can be expected further down the road.

 

[AmbientLight]

In my opinion we must be somewhat cautious regarding speculation in this area. What Yakman has translated (many thanks for that!) and what information Canon's marketing has otherwise provided is the only hint we have regarding new technology being introduced with the 70D.

What appears to have driven Canon's development here is mostly the rather obvious need (for Canon) to provide faster AF with an electronic viewfinder. That will help them release an EOS-M Mark II or whatever it is going to be named, which will have more success in the mirrorless market. I don't think we will see much of an improvement regarding low noise at high ISOs until Canon reacts to Sony's sensor technology in some form beyond what we already have with the current sensors in the 1D-X, 5D Mark III and 6D, but the apparent financial weakness of Sony and it's lack of success compared to Nikon and Canon in the camera market are unlikely to force Canon into a quick reaction. I expect we must really bide our time in this area.

 

[yakman]

@AmbientLight
Google translate should take the credit (or blame for poor translation), I'm too lazy to translate

What surprised me was no mention of the sensor fabrication process in the English news release. Even worse they mentioned 70D high ISO is on par with 60D.
In general the official 70D Chinese release provides much more info compared to the English version.
The official Japanese release seems double confirmed the new process.

http://translate.google.com/translate?langpair=auto%7Cen&u=http://cweb.canon.jp/eos/lineup/70d/feature-highquality.html

"Advanced technology to support high sensitivity, low noise and a wide dynamic range.

Aims to improve the aperture ratio of the photodiode of the CMOS sensor in the introduction the new miniaturization process in CMOS semiconductor process. Expression that take advantage of more, a wide dynamic range and high sensitivity and low noise is now possible. Moreover, adoption conjunction with photodiode structure having excellent photoelectric conversion efficiency, the pixel transistors improved to reduce the noise of the pixel portion. Improve the S / N ratio, and high ISO sensitivity. In addition, gapless micro lens with excellent light collection efficiency has also contributed significantly to the high sensitivity."

We'll have to wait and see how these marketing press really translate to

 

[aj1575]

I for my part think that Canon made the switch to a new process with the 70D sensor. Canon admited, that 18MP was the limit with the process they had then. So if they now make an APS-C sensor with 40million photodiodes (there are two diodes that can be read seperatly in every of the 20.2MP), then I think they definitly made the move to a new process.

For those who think that Canon has a problem with high ISO noise, just go over to DXO Mark and check the graphs (not their rubbish ratings, but the real measurments). Take the Nikon D600, Canon 6D and Sony a900; look at the graph, and tell me which camera you would take for low light photography. I think we have a clear winner with the 6D. The 6D looses out in dynamic range at low ISO, and has worse color sensitivity, but DR and SNR are better than the rest at high ISO.

Don't get yourself fooled by the DXOMark Rating, it shows not the whole picture. It is also difficult to judge what a 5 or 10 point difference means exactly.

I'm looking forward to the DXOMark measurments of the 70D; I think we will see some surprises, not that the 70D will storm to the top, but just a different behavior then the recent Canon sensor (which was rather predictable).

 

[pedro]

I for my part think that Canon made the switch to a new process with the 70D sensor. Canon admited, that 18MP was the limit with the process they had then. So if they now make an APS-C sensor with 40million photodiodes (there are two diodes that can be read seperatly in every of the 20.2MP), then I think they definitly made the move to a new process.

For those who think that Canon has a problem with high ISO noise, just go over to DXO Mark and check the graphs (not their rubbish ratings, but the real measurments). Take the Nikon D600, Canon 6D and Sony a900; look at the graph, and tell me which camera you would take for low light photography. I think we have a clear winner with the 6D. The 6D looses out in dynamic range at low ISO, and has worse color sensitivity, but DR and SNR are better than the rest at high ISO.

Don't get yourself fooled by the DXOMark Rating, it shows not the whole picture. It is also difficult to judge what a 5 or 10 point difference means exactly.

I'm looking forward to the DXOMark measurments of the 70D; I think we will see some surprises, not that the 70D will storm to the top, but just a different behavior then the recent Canon sensor (which was rather predictable).

yakman's hints corelate with yours, so I will be really looking forward towards more info once the RAW samples are available and real world tests by other users are done.

 

[Don Haines]

As someone who does not upgrade every model, I see significant differences between cameras. Model to model you see small incremental improvements (REALLY SMALL with the T5i) but over many models you see large improvements.

To change from 18 to 40 megapixels, to introduce pixel binning, to introduce the dual-pixel-phase-detect, does imply that this model is a significant change that would require new fabrication technologies. Time will tell, but it is looking more and more that this is going to be the transition point of Canon DSLR's to a new level

 

[Tanja]

sony is making 63% of it´s profit from insurance these days.

the electronic part of sony is a money grave.

it´s more and more likely sony will split off or even sell the electronics department.
canon would be dumb to depend on sony for sensor manufacturing in the long run.

and i have not much trust in the sony DSLR system either.

sony may has invested the most in manufacturing plants... but it does not PAY.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/28/business/global/sonys-bread-and-butter-its-not-electronics.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

you are wrong, Sonys sensor department is healthy, they earn money from the mobile sensors up to 24x36mm
that other departments such as television, consumer electronics, etc. are not going so well is another question

he talked about electronics at sony and he gave a source.

where is your source? (*)

they earn money... how much?
how long till they get the investment back?

sony electronics are overall in a bad spot compared to canon.


(*) don´t mind i found it myself.

Sony saw revenues of its semiconductor department (mainly focusing on image sensors) fall 11.5% on quarter to JPY164.1 billion in the first quarter of 2013. However, Sony aims to increase 2013 annual revenues to JPY500 billion from JPY480 billion in 2012.