Teardown: The Canon EOS R5 gets an autopsy

lawny13

EOS M6 Mark II
Mar 6, 2019
97
68
Well, a lot of other sources disagree with Dpreview then.
As for weather sealed and heat, what I mean is in 3 ways of heat transfer: conduction, convaction, radiation. Weathersealing reduce convaction to minimum, but it does not neccessary reduce conduction.

But how are you proposing to perform this conduction? Doesn’t sound like you are considering this like an engineer.

Sure you can cool the body... but you would still have to properly conduct the heat from the sensor to the body well. But bear in mind that even if this were the case, the path would be a two way street.

Say that you had thermal paste on the processor, and a food heat pipe connected to it leading it to be hard coupled to a copper body. Then the heat from your hands holding the camera, and external environment would also transfer heat to the processor. Additionally it can be a hazard of the amount of heat from the processor got too high. Like my old Mac used to get up to 100 C on a hot day before shutting I self off. It got fairly toasty.

I am fairly sure canon considered all the various possibilities, and converged on this.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stu_bert and SteveC

SteveC

R5
CR Pro
Sep 3, 2019
2,343
2,190
Haha... I think accusers of canon regarding this overheating thing are going overboard, and are just forgetting to look at things in relative terms when I comes to purchasing. What is the number one rule when considering a product and it’s value?? Compare it to other products on the market.

1. The R5 can do everything the A7R4 and Z7 can do in terms of video without overheating, and more(albeit with the overheating and limitations).

2. Want better video specs and this want to compare it to the A7SIII?? Fine do so. But the A7SIII is the opposite of the R5z great for video but worse for stills (12MP).

So, besides complaining that the R5 isn’t a unicorn, what is the best option for you? A7R4, Z7, A7SIII, or R5???? Cause those are the options right?

Under many if not most circumstances the R5 is as good or better a video camera as the A7SIII. Yes, there are some ways it is worse.

From what I have heard there is NO way in which the A7SIII is a better or equal camera for stills, than the R5.

Conclusion: If you absolutely MUST take unlimited length takes or frequent short takes in very high quality video modes, at least those that the A7SIII offers (it doesn't offer as many), then buy the A7SIII. Otherwise, get an R5 or R6.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ramage

SteveC

R5
CR Pro
Sep 3, 2019
2,343
2,190
But how are you proposing to perform this conduction? Doesn’t sound like you are considering this like an engineer.

Sure you can cool the body... but you would still have to properly conduct the heat from the sensor to the body well. But bear in mind that even if this were the case, the path would be a two way street.

Say that you had thermal paste on the processor, and a food heat pipe connected to it leading it to be hard coupled to a copper body. Then the heat from your hands holding the camera, and external environment would also transfer heat to the processor. Additionally it can be a hazard of the amount of heat from the processor got too high. Like my old Mac used to get up to 100 C on a hot day before shutting I self off. It got fairly toasty.

I am fairly sure canon considered all the various possibilities, and converged on this.

+1 I don't know of any passive system that is a heat diode, allowing heat to travel in only one direction. Though I suppose a Peltier could be considered passive (no moving mechanical parts, but it does consume electricity).
 

Baron_Karza

EOS RP
Feb 17, 2019
343
412
Haha... I think accusers of canon regarding this overheating thing are going overboard, and are just forgetting to look at things in relative terms when I comes to purchasing. What is the number one rule when considering a product and it’s value?? Compare it to other products on the market.

1. The R5 can do everything the A7R4 and Z7 can do in terms of video without overheating, and more(albeit with the overheating and limitations).

2. Want better video specs and this want to compare it to the A7SIII?? Fine do so. But the A7SIII is the opposite of the R5z great for video but worse for stills (12MP).

So, besides complaining that the R5 isn’t a unicorn, what is the best option for you? A7R4, Z7, A7SIII, or R5???? Cause those are the options right?

A camera that is STILL first, but the only stills camera that has 8K.
 

HarryFilm

EOS RP
Jun 6, 2016
705
166
Harry
I have completely misunderstood your design and its concepts. The LI-900 you propose to use is a a very efficient insulator of very low thermal capacity, so it isn't a heat sink, it just greatly slows down heat transfer without absorbing heat. If it surrounds copper, it will keep the copper hot, and if the copper is in contact with the heat producing components, it will keep them hot. So please explain what is going on so even I can understand it.
Thanks


OOOOPS !!!! --- I must bow down to your notes about the problems with my earlier proposed heat sink design.

I put it out there for giggles mostly until my actual degree-carrying colleague reviewed it on the weekend and made it known to me after noting your detail that yes the LI-900 fibrous silica tile material would be an insulator of the copper heat transfer plates and pipes and would stay hot as will the components such as CPU, RAM, memory card, battery, etc.

It seems if you use FIBROUS silica (or any other fibrous material), very little heat transfer would take place as it becomes an insulator. The heat transfer would NOT be fast enough from the component to the interior of the heat sink to cool the CPUs and/or any other camera components just as you outlined earlier!

My earlier design would ONLY WORK once temperatures quite exceeded hundreds of degrees kinda frying the camera cpus. Evidently, this design, if you used LI-900 as the heat sink material, ONLY WORKS for spacecraft or for environments where huge heat differentials are required for the LI-900 tile to act heat-sink-like. (i.e in excess of 500 Celcius!).

You need to use a more modern thermally conductive material such as those below as the thermally absorbent interior heat sink material:

Diamond – 2000 – 2200 W/m•K. ...
Silver – 429 W/m•K. ...
Copper – 398 W/m•K. ...
Gold – 315 W/m•K. ...
Aluminum nitride – 310 W/m•K. ...
Silicon carbide – 270 W/m•K. ...
Aluminum – 247 W/m•K. ...
Tungsten – 173 W/m•K.
Graphite 168 W/m•K
Zinc 116 W/m•K

or

Carbon-Carbon Ceramic Composite
Borosilicate Glass
Fire Brick Compound
Porcelain Ceramic

Anyways, a revised version of the design is noted with the changes using more contemporary heat sink material such as actual Carbon-Carbon composite, Solid BoroSilicate Glass or even Fire Brick or Porcelain ceramic compounds!

Soooooo, I DO MUST SAY OOOOPS! That was my earlier mistake!

P.S. Hey Canon! WHERE is our f/4-to-f/5.6 135mm-to-650mm Sports Zoom Lens in RF, EF mount and PL mount? (along a removable rocker-switch zoom/iris/focus servo motor handgrip!)


Oh Well --- ONTO THE NEXT DESIGN OF MINE! ;-) :) ;-)

V
 

Attachments

  • Open Source GPL-3 Heat Sink Design covering Stills-Video Cameras, Phones, Tablets, Computers i...jpg
    Open Source GPL-3 Heat Sink Design covering Stills-Video Cameras, Phones, Tablets, Computers i...jpg
    497.4 KB · Views: 51
Last edited:

Greywind

EOS M50
Aug 2, 2020
33
11
But how are you proposing to perform this conduction? Doesn’t sound like you are considering this like an engineer.

Sure you can cool the body... but you would still have to properly conduct the heat from the sensor to the body well. But bear in mind that even if this were the case, the path would be a two way street.

Say that you had thermal paste on the processor, and a food heat pipe connected to it leading it to be hard coupled to a copper body. Then the heat from your hands holding the camera, and external environment would also transfer heat to the processor. Additionally it can be a hazard of the amount of heat from the processor got too high. Like my old Mac used to get up to 100 C on a hot day before shutting I self off. It got fairly toasty.

I am fairly sure canon considered all the various possibilities, and converged on this.
You may overestimate the "two ways street". Your hand's temperature is under 37 C most of the time, the environment's should be even lower .etc
The inner temperature of camera ranging from 42-67C (according to EOSHD, but take it as grain of salt). So the inner is always hotter and heat from hot to cold, not the other way.
Unless you use your camera near a volcano, or in Sahara, of course.
The only normal scenario that heat conduction make external heat flow inside camera I could think of is having sunlight directly on the camera but it's a small use case and could be avoided.
Take a look at Sigma Fp, it uses its case for heat dissipation, and though much smaller it does not overheat when do 4K, RAW, internal record.
I also believe that Canon engineer should know more than me, and could do better than Sigma, but they don't, or not yet.
 

lawny13

EOS M6 Mark II
Mar 6, 2019
97
68
You may overestimate the "two ways street". Your hand's temperature is under 37 C most of the time, the environment's should be even lower .etc
The inner temperature of camera ranging from 42-67C (according to EOSHD, but take it as grain of salt). So the inner is always hotter and heat from hot to cold, not the other way.
Unless you use your camera near a volcano, or in Sahara, of course.
The only normal scenario that heat conduction make external heat flow inside camera I could think of is having sunlight directly on the camera but it's a small use case and could be avoided.
Take a look at Sigma Fp, it uses its case for heat dissipation, and though much smaller it does not overheat when do 4K, RAW, internal record.
I also believe that Canon engineer should know more than me, and could do better than Sigma, but they don't, or not yet.
Inadmissible that I thought of the Sigma Fp. But basically I concluded that it was comparing apples to oranges. You seem to be implying that the sigma wouldn’t overheat if it were doing 4k120p or 8k or oversampled 4K full width???

Sorry but that is rubbish. If you look at the specs of the sigma it is a 24 MP camera, and it doesn’t give you 4k60p or any of the video modes that the R5 overheats in. Not at all.

Short of someone showing me a 3D thermal simulation of both cameras to prove that one cooling solution is better than the other I simply won’t buy that one is better than the other.

I work as a mechanical designer for earth observation instruments. It is for this reason why I am a little allergic for arm chair engineers to claim that those designing a product somehow botched things. You start of with a given set of parameters, a budget and a deadline and you aim for it. You aren’t allowed to chase some golden product cause you will very likely end up overshooting some of those parameters.

like did you see how much space there was in the year down? Think sigma’s sort of passive grill approach would have worked here? Just look at the geometry. The Sigma doesn’t even have an EVF.
 

Greywind

EOS M50
Aug 2, 2020
33
11
Inadmissible that I thought of the Sigma Fp. But basically I concluded that it was comparing apples to oranges. You seem to be implying that the sigma wouldn’t overheat if it were doing 4k120p or 8k or oversampled 4K full width???

Sorry but that is rubbish. If you look at the specs of the sigma it is a 24 MP camera, and it doesn’t give you 4k60p or any of the video modes that the R5 overheats in. Not at all.

Short of someone showing me a 3D thermal simulation of both cameras to prove that one cooling solution is better than the other I simply won’t buy that one is better than the other.

I work as a mechanical designer for earth observation instruments. It is for this reason why I am a little allergic for arm chair engineers to claim that those designing a product somehow botched things. You start of with a given set of parameters, a budget and a deadline and you aim for it. You aren’t allowed to chase some golden product cause you will very likely end up overshooting some of those parameters.

like did you see how much space there was in the year down? Think sigma’s sort of passive grill approach would have worked here? Just look at the geometry. The Sigma doesn’t even have an EVF.
At least Sigma show that high quality 4K 30p RAW would not overheat in smaller form-factor. And you don't use VF much while video recording. And about 24MP of Fp, R6's overheating situation is even worse than R5 with 20MP.
I don't know whether with adding passive grill, if design as good as Sigma, could R5 do 8K or 4k120p non-overheating, but 4K HQ non-overheating would be within reach. And even 8K or 4K120p would have longer recording time and much lower cooldown time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Baron_Karza

lawny13

EOS M6 Mark II
Mar 6, 2019
97
68
At least Sigma show that high quality 4K 30p RAW would not overheat in smaller form-factor. And you don't use VF much while video recording. And about 24MP of Fp, R6's overheating situation is even worse than R5 with 20MP.
I don't know whether with adding passive grill, if design as good as Sigma, could R5 do 8K or 4k120p non-overheating, but 4K HQ non-overheating would be within reach. And even 8K or 4K120p would have longer recording time and much lower cooldown time.

oh? Within reach? What are you basing this on if I may ask? Cause somehowI think you aren’t fully appreciating whatI said in the first place.

Like your comment about not needing EVF for video... remember I said parameters need to be addressed? Your EVF comment kills any point in discussing this with you further cause the R6 and R5 are first and by far STILLS CAMERAS first.

I spend the day with the kids at the zoo on a bright day shooting the R5. It would have been absolute crap without an EVF and shooting the sigma 150-600 adapter to it.

As for your comment on the R6. The same applies, parameters. I am not going to start making assumptions regarding what the engineers encountered and the choices they had to make during the design. ButI do know that the R6 does 20 fps in e-shutter mode with very well controlled rolling shutter indicating high readout speeds, which means more heat. It also has IBIS (does the sigma FP). Not to mention it is pretty much a mini 1DXIII at the price point of $2.4k, and thus I am not surprised if some compromises needed to be made to get it there.The R6 is by far a better still camera than the FP. I mean consider that the FP doesn’t even have a mechanical shutter making it very bad for stills.

I would have to judge the R6 against things like the A7III and Z6 because those had the same design intent. And I honestly haven’t looked at that cause I was interested in the R5.
 

Baron_Karza

EOS RP
Feb 17, 2019
343
412
Inadmissible that I thought of the Sigma Fp. But basically I concluded that it was comparing apples to oranges. You seem to be implying that the sigma wouldn’t overheat if it were doing 4k120p or 8k or oversampled 4K full width???

Sorry but that is rubbish. If you look at the specs of the sigma it is a 24 MP camera, and it doesn’t give you 4k60p or any of the video modes that the R5 overheats in. Not at all.

Short of someone showing me a 3D thermal simulation of both cameras to prove that one cooling solution is better than the other I simply won’t buy that one is better than the other.

I work as a mechanical designer for earth observation instruments. It is for this reason why I am a little allergic for arm chair engineers to claim that those designing a product somehow botched things. You start of with a given set of parameters, a budget and a deadline and you aim for it. You aren’t allowed to chase some golden product cause you will very likely end up overshooting some of those parameters.

like did you see how much space there was in the year down? Think sigma’s sort of passive grill approach would have worked here? Just look at the geometry. The Sigma doesn’t even have an EVF.

R6 is only 20MP and overheats.
 

Baron_Karza

EOS RP
Feb 17, 2019
343
412
oh? Within reach? What are you basing this on if I may ask? Cause somehowI think you aren’t fully appreciating whatI said in the first place.

Like your comment about not needing EVF for video... remember I said parameters need to be addressed? Your EVF comment kills any point in discussing this with you further cause the R6 and R5 are first and by far STILLS CAMERAS first.

I spend the day with the kids at the zoo on a bright day shooting the R5. It would have been absolute crap without an EVF and shooting the sigma 150-600 adapter to it.

As for your comment on the R6. The same applies, parameters. I am not going to start making assumptions regarding what the engineers encountered and the choices they had to make during the design. ButI do know that the R6 does 20 fps in e-shutter mode with very well controlled rolling shutter indicating high readout speeds, which means more heat. It also has IBIS (does the sigma FP). Not to mention it is pretty much a mini 1DXIII at the price point of $2.4k, and thus I am not surprised if some compromises needed to be made to get it there.The R6 is by far a better still camera than the FP. I mean consider that the FP doesn’t even have a mechanical shutter making it very bad for stills.

I would have to judge the R6 against things like the A7III and Z6 because those had the same design intent. And I honestly haven’t looked at that cause I was interested in the R5.

and the FIRST "stills" camera to put in 8K, because hey, that is what make a stills camera so great. No other stills camera has a VIDEO feature so great. Makes TOTAL sense....gimmick...
 
and the FIRST "stills" camera to put in 8K, because hey, that is what make a stills camera so great. No other stills camera has a VIDEO feature so great. Makes TOTAL sense....gimmick...
Fine, for you it is a gimmick. Canon decided they wanted to include it. Don't buy it. Don't buy the R6 if it doesnt suit your needs. Every manufacturer is completely honest and transparent about every product they produce. Whatever company you work for, I am sure they are the same. Perfect products which has made them market leaders....

Honestly, what are you hoping to achieve here in this forum?

Have you fed back to Canon that you are dissatisfied with their new products? Constructively?

I have fed back some concerns based on my use of the R5. I will be interested in their reply. I am conducting testing of it for my use-cases. And ultimately I will decide if that makes the R5 worth it. Others, like you will do the same....
 
  • Like
Reactions: Greywind
I work as a mechanical designer for earth observation instruments. It is for this reason why I am a little allergic for arm chair engineers to claim that those designing a product somehow botched things. You start of with a given set of parameters, a budget and a deadline and you aim for it. You aren’t allowed to chase some golden product cause you will very likely end up overshooting some of those parameters.
To be fair, it is a forum on a rumours site. When qualified people share their views, i do tend to attach more weight to them. For some of the rest of us, I think we just want to try and fix something, even though in truth we probably can’t.

You’re probably going to get quite frustrated here, sorry!
 
  • Like
Reactions: vjlex

Greywind

EOS M50
Aug 2, 2020
33
11
oh? Within reach? What are you basing this on if I may ask? Cause somehowI think you aren’t fully appreciating whatI said in the first place.

Like your comment about not needing EVF for video... remember I said parameters need to be addressed? Your EVF comment kills any point in discussing this with you further cause the R6 and R5 are first and by far STILLS CAMERAS first.

I spend the day with the kids at the zoo on a bright day shooting the R5. It would have been absolute crap without an EVF and shooting the sigma 150-600 adapter to it.

As for your comment on the R6. The same applies, parameters. I am not going to start making assumptions regarding what the engineers encountered and the choices they had to make during the design. ButI do know that the R6 does 20 fps in e-shutter mode with very well controlled rolling shutter indicating high readout speeds, which means more heat. It also has IBIS (does the sigma FP). Not to mention it is pretty much a mini 1DXIII at the price point of $2.4k, and thus I am not surprised if some compromises needed to be made to get it there.The R6 is by far a better still camera than the FP. I mean consider that the FP doesn’t even have a mechanical shutter making it very bad for stills.

I would have to judge the R6 against things like the A7III and Z6 because those had the same design intent. And I honestly haven’t looked at that cause I was interested in the R5.
Calm down.
First thing first, R5/R6 is very good still camera, nobody argue about that so far.
Second, "overheating" does not show any impact in taking stills, therefore is non-issue when taking photos.

And "overheating" is what impact/hinder/restrict video recording. Therefore, the context of the discussion is about video recording. And I don't see much use case of EVF in video recording, I stated about that in my previous post : "you don't use VF MUCH while video recording". There might be some use case but not the majority. And that's in video recording context.
And about assumptions, we discuss possibility based on common knowledge, based on trusted reviewer, based on available product. It's not 100% precise but it's creditable.
For example, Gerald Undone show that R5/R6 need a 2 hours resting, completely turn off to fully recovered and get the full video recording advertised. For reference, my boiling kettle (1kW) don't need 2 hours to cooldown from 100 Celsius to drop to room temp. My kettle does not have any special mechanism to cool down. I might do a heat up to 60-70 and test later to much sure how long it needs to 30 (also blocking convaction) if you want something precise. Or you could do that yourself.
That's a creditable assumption based on trusted source (Gerald Undone) and your own common knowledge (boiling water).
Not so arm chair engineer, I guess.

And of course, if you only shoot STILL, don't care about video limitation then move on, don't pay attention to my post. We have no common interest in discussion.