The Canon EOS M50 Will Shoot 4K [CR3]

[Tugela]

The idea that Canon's full frame 6dII didnt need 4k, but a mid-level APS-C mirrorless did is just inane thinking from Canon.

I assume the 90D will get it as will further cameras down the line, but this is still just laughable that they go so over the top to protect their own lineup, then make weird choices like this

The processors available during 6DII development did not allow for hardware 4K encoding without a cooling solution, so it did not have 4K included. The Digic 7 that was available at the time could do hardware 4K, but it would have required a fan, which obviously was a non starter on a DSLR. The Digic 8 should be coming out around now (this is the stills equivalent of the Digic DV6 which is already being used in the latest prosumer camcorders from Canon), it remains to be seen if it requires cooling or not. The XF400/405 appear to have vents, so they may have fans, but we will see if they are needed for less demanding 4K options, such as 30p (the XF400 series should 4K at up to 60p). If fans are not required for 4K60p then the M50 may well be able to shoot hardware encoded 4K. But I think either as a crop or with pixel binning/line skipping as I doubt it would be able to oversample (that would generate more heat and presumably require a fan again)

 

[Tugela]

Why does it take Canon so long to bring a camera out? I believe Nikon just get on with it like they did with 850, or are they just as bad?

We'll still be here next year and for those harping on 'to 4k or not to 4k' IMO the 6dii should have had a much better image quality compared to the 6d 2012 version that's the more important upgrade which just did not happen...

How long do you think it took Nikon to design, develop, beta test and release the D850?
Many people who actually use the 6D2 say it does does have better image quality than the 6D, just not in the way people were predicting or in the way they hoped. Nikon sees buying in sensors as their route to gaining ground on Canon, Canon consider sensor quality to be lower down the list or priorities so are happy to keep manufacturing their own sensors.

I do wish people wold look on a camera as a tool rather than thinking it is all about the sensor.

If you look at reviews about the IQ (ignoring the idiotic ones about 4K) then they are generally positive about the IQ of the 6D, many reviewers saying it falls between the 5DMk3 and 5DMk4, not bad for a camera at half the cost.

4 or 5 years is a reasonable time frame for a camera of this complexity, especially when you factor in that year on year advancements in photo technology are quite slow, which is why the higher refresh at the lower end of the market never really delivers much in the way of performance boosts, unless something happened that year like a bump in sensor technology.

Everytime the image quality is increased, the next increase is that much harder to attain, and generally it is smaller, that's how development goes. Yes occasionally something comes along to advance IQ, but it takes time, which is why a 4-5 year refresh cycle makes sense.

I still think 4K (or any video) on DSLR cameras is a waste of money, the focus is still on still images, thats what photographers mainly buy them for. Most of the video functions are after thoughts, the audio is generally crap and the usability compared to a video-centric devices is poor.

If your focus is video, and you want a video camera, go and buy one. Right tool for the right job and all that. I think Canon are spot on ignoring pressure for a feature that a lot of people rant about, but rarely use.

You don't get it. Most people who buy these sorts of cameras for video also take stills. They want a hybrid camera, not have to carry two separate systems around with them. Video is included to address this market, which probably includes most consumer videographers these days since the consumer/prosumer camcorder market is essentially dead now.

EVERYONE who used to shoot video on camcorders, and who nowdays does not use a cell phone, uses some sort of ILC or fixed lens hybrid. That is why it is so important to include video functions in any camera directed at consumers. Even pros want it, since many are required to shoot both stills and video on jobs, and it certainly helps to have a single camera that does both.

 

[Tugela]

If you look at reviews about the IQ (ignoring the idiotic ones about 4K) then they are generally positive about the IQ of the 6D, many reviewers saying it falls between the 5DMk3 and 5DMk4, not bad for a camera at half the cost.

As an owner of a 6DII, that's exactly where it is.

I still think 4K (or any video) on DSLR cameras is a waste of money, the focus is still on still images, thats what photographers mainly buy them for. Most of the video functions are after thoughts, the audio is generally crap and the usability compared to a video-centric devices is poor.

If your focus is video, and you want a video camera, go and buy one. Right tool for the right job and all that. I think Canon are spot on ignoring pressure for a feature that a lot of people rant about, but rarely use.

Couldn't agree more. The form factor is totally wrong. I have repeatedly posted that I can't imagine why someone would want to spend thousands of dollars on the wrong device for the job, if their goal is to produce great video.

If it's wedding/event videos, I think a real camcorder would be a far superior tool. And it's not like a professional photographer can say, "okay, I'm going to swap between taking wedding videos and wedding photos so I can do it all on this one device". I mean, you'd want the wedding camcorder to be recording (and manned) and be taking wedding photos at the same time... right?

Home videos, all 4k does is force you to downsample it, because you can't share 4k videos with most people.

For vloggers and such, the only benefit to 4k that I can see is that you can use the wrong lens and crop to zoom. Which seems to me, you'd be better off using the right lens.

I can only assume that you have never shot in 4K.

You do realize that currently just about every large screen TV in the price range sweet spot is 4K capable right?

 

[Tugela]

...I don't know whether that falls within the range of what is used today, and whether anybody sitting a normal distance away from a TV under 60" could tell a difference.

Keep in mind that very little video is viewed on television sets. (Maybe a few people use television like the old home projector, but that's almost exclusively limited to self-gratification.)

Almost all video is consumed on smartphones, tablets or laptops, with smartphones being the dominant device.

Are you not aware that modern TV sets include Youtube and other video apps? Big screen TVs kick ass for watching that sort of stuff.

Not to mention that it is common for people to attach computers to their TVs as well.

 

[Tugela]

Wow, a lot of '4K' talk here.

Wasn't this camera supposed to sit between the m100 and m5/m6? I can't get my head around where this model is being positioned.

Does the addition of 4K make it a flagship model, and price it above the M5? Will 4K acutally be 2160p60? or will it be p30, so not that useful (maybe okay for you tubers).

Will it have a viewfinder? or will it be an expensive add-on like the M6?

Personally, I was hoping for a lower cost M5 that has a viewfinder, with some features left out, like no mic input, lower burst mode etc. But I think the addition of 4K has complicated things.

I had exactly the same questions:

- More or less expensive than M5
- If you strip out video, better or worse than M5 for stills
- EVF + hotshoe, or just hotshoe with attachable EVF


Or, perhaps, Canon is going to screw us all up, and mess with their tortured smaller is better except when bigger is better naming convention, such that M50 is an M5-ish camera with 4k.

Or who knows, and M50 sits between M5 and M6, but with 4k. So the M5 version that has 4k would be the M40.

8)


I will make a guess: that the M50 is more expensive than M6 -- about the same price as M5; same format as M6 (external EVF on hotshoe); and have still photography features like M6.

Well, from there it seems reasonable to extrapolate : adding a good 4K footage (even 30P) without changing either processor and/or sensor type seems higly unlikely.

Maybe, the 90D with the latest digic 7 could prove me wrong. Wait and see!

It's entirely possible that it's a new processor or a variant on an existing one, like Digic7C or some such, though.

I am quite confused now

For 4K, the 5DMk4 has digic 6, so if digic 6 can do uhd, can digic 7? (if you have 2 of them). So what would the EOS M50 have?

The M5 has digic 7, and does not do 4K. Is that a marketing or technical decision (same could be asked about the EOS 6DMk2 I guess?)

M50 should be lower in the model range than M5 or M6 (using other Canon number schemes as a guide).

For me it is all about the stills performance, I am not a videographer, so it does not bother me if there is no video capabilities. I know that other people do care greatly about video, so there has to be a good balance where photographers and vloggers will be happy.

I don't think we will see anything more than p25/p30 UHD, unless Canon decices to allow a p50/60 but at a fairly low bit rate (30-40Mb/s) which is okay for you tube, or maybe some b-roll?

I have the original EOS-M, and its impossible to use in bright sunlight, the LCD is just unusable, so like my DSLRs, I need a viewfinder, and having a £200+ option, like on the M6 is just ridiculous.

I could buy an alternative, like the Panasonic Tz100 (think thats it) but I really want to use the 11-22 mm M lens that I have, as landscape and architecture are my thing.

Well, I guess we will have to wait and see

Digic 7 has the hardware to do 4K encoding (it is basically the same as the Digic DV5), but presumably it gets too hot with a cooling solution. Cameras with the DV5 have fans in them, so it is not an issue for those.

 

[Tugela]

Canon needs to have the drive to push through these technical boundaries and they won’t do that unless people demand it.

people complaining in forum posts is not demanding it, it's simply annoying everyone else.

write to canon and express your displeasure. email chuck westfall even. that's demanding it.

similarly, write to vendors that don't support the EF-M mount ifyou want more lenses for it, such as Sigma.

I disagree- forums generate (and are) word of mouth. But we can do those other things you suggested, too- all good ideas.

word of mouth does nothing to change the opinion of canon,et all.

if you think your opinion is worthy, then say it to the source. forums are just that, a collection of people talking, canon probably doesn't even monitor the chatter.

but stating it to chuck or canon USA? that gets talked about at the regional meetings they have.

Keep in mind also that Canon does extensive market research, which is far more reliable. Self-selection skews results. Any good research requires that the researcher select the subjects, rather than the other way around. So, making noise may have some small impact, but only if the market research confirms what the squeaky wheels are saying.

Of course, Canon also has access to massive amounts of sales data which reflects real world purchase decisions, rather than speculation.

While Canon may look at chatter on the Internet, it's almost certainly at the macro level -- unlikely to be at the granular level of individual forum posts.

Accept that no one really cares about what an individual does. What researchers care about is the aggregate. Individuals are fools. But crowds are genius.

All the market research counts for squat if the hardware available to you can't do what that research tells you to do and still remain economical.

Everyone here thinks that Canon are conservative and are giving the consumers what they really want. But that is not true. They are giving the consumers what they are CAPABLE of giving, and spinning a fantasy that it is what the consumers want. Two different things.

The rapidly increasing success of the competition which does implement 4K should have given a hint, but there is a whole lot of blinker wearing going on among the fanbois.

 

[Loswr]

[lApparently the camera has a Digic 8 processor in it...

Will all cameras with Digic 8 shoot 4K? Because that's what you said about Digic 7...

 

[Richard CR]

Nokshita released specs and a pic!

This is definately sitting just under an M5. note the ergonomic differences.

Specs:
24.1 Megapixels APS-C CMOS
Dual pixel CMOS AF
DIGIC 8
4K video
Standard ISO: 100-25600 (extended ISO: 51200)
Continuous: Up to 10 frames / sec (at servo AF: up to 7.4 frames / sec)
EVF: 2.36 million dot organic EL
3 type 104 million dots Bali angle touch panel liquid crystal
Wi-Fi · Bluetooth · NFC installed
Supports the next-generation CR3 RAW format and the new C-RAW compression format
The C - RAW format is 40% smaller in file size than conventional RAW, and it corresponds to in - camera RAW development and digital lens optimizer
Color: Black / White
In overseas stores there are stores to start reservation on February 27

There's some big news here with this. New CR3 format, DIGIC 8 making an appearance for 4K video and M50 gets a variable angle display up from tilt.

this with a vari angle display, DPAF and finally 4K just may be the vlogger camera of choice from Canon.

 

[Don Haines]

Digic 7 has the hardware to do 4K encoding (it is basically the same as the Digic DV5), but presumably it gets too hot with a cooling solution. Cameras with the DV5 have fans in them, so it is not an issue for those.

yes, heat buildup in a small body.... and for some strange (at least to forum users) reason Canon does not want to release a feature that will overheat the camera and shorten it's life..... inconceivable!

and now it is rumored that this camera will have a Digic8 and 4K.... looks like the problem is solved and from this point on, I would bet 4K is a standard feature....

I wonder if it supports UHS-2?

 

[MayaTlab]

Digic 7 has the hardware to do 4K encoding (it is basically the same as the Digic DV5), but presumably it gets too hot with a cooling solution. Cameras with the DV5 have fans in them, so it is not an issue for those.

yes, heat buildup in a small body.... and for some strange (at least to forum users) reason Canon does not want to release a feature that will overheat the camera and shorten it's life..... inconceivable!

and now it is rumored that this camera will have a Digic8 and 4K.... looks like the problem is solved and from this point on, I would bet 4K is a standard feature....

I wonder if it supports UHS-2?

Personally I think that it's more a question of sensor readout speed than of processor. So far Canon hasn't shown that they can produce sensors for stills cameras with a sufficiently fast readout that they can sample the whole sensor without too much rolling shutter.

Anyway, if it's a question of processing, it reflects poorly on Canon too. Panasonic has been doing quality 4K for years in their bodies, regardless of size, without overheating.

Both don't explain why they didn't implement better 1080p in the 6D mark II .

Let's hope this M50 signals the end of all that !

 

[Sharlin]

The C-RAW is interesting. Might be great for shooting at high ISOs where half of the full 14 bits of DR is noise anyway. Or in controlled lighting conditions such as in a studio. That is, at least if there's no lossy spatial compression of some sort. Given that in-camera RAW processing is there this doesn't seem to be just TIFF in CR2 clothes like the medium and small RAW formats.

 

[rrcphoto]

Both don't explain why they didn't implement better 1080p in the 6D mark II .

Let's hope this M50 signals the end of all that !

just because Panasonic has had it doesn't mean that canon hasn't had to play catch up. It's more to do with encoders than it is processing power,etc.

It appears that DIGIC 8 is finally a 4K encoder based DIGIC.

needing DIGIC 8 for economical 4K is most certainly a reason the 6D Mark II didn't get it.

why they gimped 1080? who knows.

in before now everyone starts to complain that it ONLY shoots at 30p 4K and that their professional works requires a $1000 camera body that shoots at LEAST 60p.
:

 

[stevelee]

needing DIGIC 8 for economical 4K is most certainly a reason the 6D Mark II didn't get it.

why they gimped 1080? who knows.

What problems have you encountered with the 1080p video on the 6D2?

 

[rrcphoto]

needing DIGIC 8 for economical 4K is most certainly a reason the 6D Mark II didn't get it.

why they gimped 1080? who knows.

What problems have you encountered with the 1080p video on the 6D2?

they removed ALL-I and reduced the bitrate from the 6D.

 

[Don Haines]

needing DIGIC 8 for economical 4K is most certainly a reason the 6D Mark II didn't get it.

why they gimped 1080? who knows.

What problems have you encountered with the 1080p video on the 6D2?

they removed ALL-I and reduced the bitrate from the 6D.

couldn't the reduced bit-rate be a result of a better compression algorithm?

 

[stevelee]

they removed ALL-I and reduced the bitrate from the 6D.

To see what you are talking about, I tried Googling ALL-I, and got mainly Mariah Carey references and a couple for Adele.

Bitrate I sort of understand from audio.

I haven't used a 6D, but the little video I've shot with the 6D2 looks pretty good full screen on my 5K iMac, so I don't know what to look for that I'm missing.

 

[Sharlin]

they removed ALL-I and reduced the bitrate from the 6D.

To see what you are talking about, I tried Googling ALL-I, and got mainly Mariah Carey references and a couple for Adele.

ALL-I means no interframe compression. That is, instead of only storing every nth frame in full (called keyframes) and of the intervening frames only differences compared to the last keyframe, ALL-I considers every frame a keyframe. It naturally leads to bigger file sizes but is better suited to editing. It doesn't affect image quality much if you're only viewing your videos.

 

[stevelee]

ALL-I means no interframe compression. That is, instead of only storing every nth frame in full (called keyframes) and of the intervening frames only differences compared to the last keyframe, ALL-I considers every frame a keyframe. It naturally leads to bigger file sizes but is better suited to editing. It doesn't affect image quality much if you're only viewing your videos.

Thanks. Since I posted that, I added "format" to my search and no longer got links to Mariah Carey videos. (But I did decide that all I want for Christmas is a 24mm TS lens. That could change, though.)

Anyhow I found several discussions and a video, including a discussion here from 2013.

It would seem that the bitrate could be smaller and still have as good or better quality IPB, so that part is no surprise. One link I found was recommending 100 Mbs IPB over 200 Mbs ALL-I in a Panasonic camera.

FCP X has no problem keeping up with the IPB from the 6D2 on my 5K iMac, so editing is not a problem. FCP will temporarily eat up 200 GB on my SSD with work files in the process, so a spinning drive might be a bottleneck. I did edit a 4K time lapse from the camera, and it didn't seem to present any speed problem. The computer is fast enough that Compressor can produce three sizes of output in about the same time as the video duration.

 

[bhf3737]

...
Everyone here thinks that Canon are conservative and are giving the consumers what they really want. But that is not true. They are giving the consumers what they are CAPABLE of giving, and spinning a fantasy that it is what the consumers want. Two different things.

The rapidly increasing success of the competition which does implement 4K should have given a hint, but there is a whole lot of blinker wearing going on among the fanbois.

Canon has shown that they are CAPABLE of doing things right and at a price point that sells well.
As for 4K, even their XC-15, a 2.5K priced camera has better codec and does better than competition in the 8-10K price range. Their C200, priced around 8K, can capture RAW video and no other competitor in this class can do.
The real fantasy is that all this technology should be put in a tiny consumer M50 camera which is supposed to cost around 1K.

 

[Loswr]

...spinning a fantasy...

The rapidly increasing success of the competition which does implement 4K should have given a hint, but there is a whole lot of blinker wearing going on among the fanbois.

Canon has gained market share over the past few years. The 'rapidly increasing success of the competition which does implement 4K' is a fantasy that you're spinning. Try taking off your blindfold and looking at reality, at least once in a while.