The Lumia 1020...final death blow to the Point and Shoot?

[jrista]

I guess I'd like to keep things separated while batteries have just enough juice for one day on those huge screen phones. I'd rather shoot as much as I like, use the flash as much as I like, without having to think if I can get through the day. (These things change rather quickly, though.)

I make pretty heavy use of my Lumia each day, and it gets at least 9 hours of battery life. It doesn't have a Xenon flash, but it does have an exceptionally bright duel LED flash (very high MCD). I'm not sure that the screen is really the primary power draw anyway...the bigger draw is usually the LTE and WiFi, both of which I keep on at all times now since AT&T went the way of Verizon, and is now capping bandwidth at 5Gb/mo (I browse enough high def photography and videos on my phone that I can burn through that).

One of the things I like about Windows Phone 8 is that it is actually quite efficient, and when the battery drops below a certain threshold, you can configure it to enter a low-power mode where it will only turn on the LTE or WiFi if you actually need to use it. That usually extends my battery another three hours, so I can usually get 12 hours a day out of my 920.

 

[jrista]

I just read some of the reviews on the Lumia 1020. I have to say, from a photography standpoint, I am REALLY impressed. It finally brings the true PureView 808's 41mp sensor, the 6-element Zeiss lens from the 925, and full Xenon flash to a phone pretty much built for photography. Their pro photo software looks rather nice, giving you complete control over all the standard aspects of exposure (i.e. want to do a long exposure and blur people walking by...you can). I love the fact that it has the extended battery "grip" accessory, too.

http://www.nokia.com/global/products/phone/lumia1020


So, does this mark the true end of the point and shoot, and the beginning of full blown photography phones with all the features we *photographers* have come to expect from an actual camera? To date, phone cameras have been geared more towards the instagrammer crowd...the Lumia 1020 seems to be positioned more for pro photographers who want something simpler, but still just as capable, for a handy every-moment alternative to a DSLR.

Is it only me who thinks this?

I don't think there is much of anyone (camera or other phones) that will have much to fear from competiton from this phone, as long as it is running Windows.

;D ;D

Cayenne

Have you actually used a Windows Phone 8 device? They are certainly not a joke, and after owning several generations of iPhone, I much prefer the Metro experience. The app gap is shrinking fast, and most of the apps I want are already available, and those that aren't are either coming, or I can write myself. I'd also point out that as the Android vs. iPhone battle has raged, iPhone has been losing, while Android and Windows have been gaining. Windows market share is about doubling every year, particularly with the Nokia Lumia phones. Again, I think people who skip past a Lumia just because its Nokia or just because its Windows are short changing themselves.

 

[Don Haines]

I just don't see people using point & shoot cameras anymore. I see either smart phones or bridge/DSLR cameras.

Most of my photography at work is done on an ipad.... For what I need, it is way more convenient than a DSLR. The pictures are not as good, but they are certainly good enough and the convenience is unbeatable.

Wildlife photography is a different story... Long lenses on a dslr can't be beat. I am not the type to walk up to a polar bear, shove a phone in its face, and snap away while it chews on my leg...

There is a time and place for both DSLR's and phones, but as the abilities of phone cameras increases, p/s cameras get squeezed out. Phone pictures are good enough for Facebook and the bulk of the market is in that area.

BTW, I have been watching the Tour de France, almost everyone you see taking pictures along the race is using phone cameras and p/s.... Very few DSLRs.....

 

[Don Haines]

The trouble is that many people use this philosophy of not bringing a compass on to a mountain too seriously. In the UK there have been numerous call outs to the (voluntary) mountain rescue teams to rescue them because the battery in their phone has run dry. The trouble is that redundancy might be apparent, but that doesn't mean it's real.

I carry compass, paper map (never had the batteries die on a paper map), food, water, matches, space blanket, headlamp, and emergency shelter on day hikes away from the roads... I have found lost and exhausted hikers and brought them out of the woods after dark, and once overnighted with a couple an brought them out in the morning. People think that as soon as they don't show up that someone goes looking for them.... You are lucky if the search starts in 24 hours...be prepared to spend the night out!

 

[zim]

Have you actually used a Windows Phone 8 device? They are certainly not a joke, and after owning several generations of iPhone, I much prefer the Metro experience. The app gap is shrinking fast, and most of the apps I want are already available, and those that aren't are either coming, or I can write myself. I'd also point out that as the Android vs. iPhone battle has raged, iPhone has been losing, while Android and Windows have been gaining. Windows market share is about doubling every year, particularly with the Nokia Lumia phones. Again, I think people who skip past a Lumia just because its Nokia or just because its Windows are short changing themselves.

No point in having that argument really, not going to win anything.
I find the 'apps gap' irrelevant in about 5 mins I'd downloaded (free) every app I'm likely to need on my phone. (Nokia 925 win8)

I think what Nokia are doing is facinating, apart from IQ what I want to see improving substantially though is focus and shutter lag.

 

[distant.star]

The trouble is that many people use this philosophy of not bringing a compass on to a mountain too seriously. In the UK there have been numerous call outs to the (voluntary) mountain rescue teams to rescue them because the battery in their phone has run dry. The trouble is that redundancy might be apparent, but that doesn't mean it's real.

If you go to a grocery store and take no money, you get no food.

Trouble is, I said nothing about mountaineering, backpacking or even day hiking. I know there are fools who think a smart phone is a tool in the wilderness; those people get what they deserve. Unfortunately, they call us to come rescue them because they are unprepared and don't know what they're doing.

I have zero tolerance for idiots in some backcountry areas using cell phones to call emergency services to deliver water -- and such things happen. However, my comments had nothing to do with this.

The multiple examples I cited to make a case for redundancy are very real, including the compass. You can also probably make a case that after a nuclear war your smart phone won't work, but that old reliable point and shoot camera will. How would that be relevant to this discussion?

There's a useful book I frequently recommend to people:

The Art of Clear Thinking by Rudolf Flesch.

 

[MrFotoFool]

The trouble is that many people use this philosophy of not bringing a compass on to a mountain too seriously. In the UK there have been numerous call outs to the (voluntary) mountain rescue teams to rescue them because the battery in their phone has run dry. The trouble is that redundancy might be apparent, but that doesn't mean it's real.

If the battery in their phone was dead, then how did they call the rescue team?

 

[jrista]

Have you actually used a Windows Phone 8 device? They are certainly not a joke, and after owning several generations of iPhone, I much prefer the Metro experience. The app gap is shrinking fast, and most of the apps I want are already available, and those that aren't are either coming, or I can write myself. I'd also point out that as the Android vs. iPhone battle has raged, iPhone has been losing, while Android and Windows have been gaining. Windows market share is about doubling every year, particularly with the Nokia Lumia phones. Again, I think people who skip past a Lumia just because its Nokia or just because its Windows are short changing themselves.

No point in having that argument really, not going to win anything.
I find the 'apps gap' irrelevant in about 5 mins I'd downloaded (free) every app I'm likely to need on my phone. (Nokia 925 win8)

I think what Nokia are doing is facinating, apart from IQ what I want to see improving substantially though is focus and shutter lag.

Shutter lag on an electronic shutter has always been an oddity to me. Is it simply because most smartphone cameras (and, for that matter, P&S cameras) insist on making a cutsie and unbelievably annoying little fake shutter click when people press the button? I figure, assuming the lens is focused, taking a picture should be near instantaneous...

 

[cayenne]

I just read some of the reviews on the Lumia 1020. I have to say, from a photography standpoint, I am REALLY impressed. It finally brings the true PureView 808's 41mp sensor, the 6-element Zeiss lens from the 925, and full Xenon flash to a phone pretty much built for photography. Their pro photo software looks rather nice, giving you complete control over all the standard aspects of exposure (i.e. want to do a long exposure and blur people walking by...you can). I love the fact that it has the extended battery "grip" accessory, too.

http://www.nokia.com/global/products/phone/lumia1020


So, does this mark the true end of the point and shoot, and the beginning of full blown photography phones with all the features we *photographers* have come to expect from an actual camera? To date, phone cameras have been geared more towards the instagrammer crowd...the Lumia 1020 seems to be positioned more for pro photographers who want something simpler, but still just as capable, for a handy every-moment alternative to a DSLR.

Is it only me who thinks this?

I don't think there is much of anyone (camera or other phones) that will have much to fear from competiton from this phone, as long as it is running Windows.

;D ;D

Cayenne

Have you actually used a Windows Phone 8 device? They are certainly not a joke, and after owning several generations of iPhone, I much prefer the Metro experience. The app gap is shrinking fast, and most of the apps I want are already available, and those that aren't are either coming, or I can write myself. I'd also point out that as the Android vs. iPhone battle has raged, iPhone has been losing, while Android and Windows have been gaining. Windows market share is about doubling every year, particularly with the Nokia Lumia phones. Again, I think people who skip past a Lumia just because its Nokia or just because its Windows are short changing themselves.

So far, I've not been able to stomach ANY version of Metro, no matter the platform it is on...I think M$ is really shooting itself in the foot with this, and it is showing with Win8 sales.

But to each his own...I prefer to play with Linux and OSX these days, and only run windows (win7) on VMs for apps that absolutely won't run on anything else.

But whatever pleases a person.

I have been curious, however, who the guy was that was buying the Windows phones....nice to meet you!

 

[cayenne]

Have you actually used a Windows Phone 8 device? They are certainly not a joke, and after owning several generations of iPhone, I much prefer the Metro experience. The app gap is shrinking fast, and most of the apps I want are already available, and those that aren't are either coming, or I can write myself. I'd also point out that as the Android vs. iPhone battle has raged, iPhone has been losing, while Android and Windows have been gaining. Windows market share is about doubling every year, particularly with the Nokia Lumia phones. Again, I think people who skip past a Lumia just because its Nokia or just because its Windows are short changing themselves.

No point in having that argument really, not going to win anything.
I find the 'apps gap' irrelevant in about 5 mins I'd downloaded (free) every app I'm likely to need on my phone. (Nokia 925 win8)

I think what Nokia are doing is facinating, apart from IQ what I want to see improving substantially though is focus and shutter lag.

Shutter lag on an electronic shutter has always been an oddity to me. Is it simply because most smartphone cameras (and, for that matter, P&S cameras) insist on making a cutsie and unbelievably annoying little fake shutter click when people press the button? I figure, assuming the lens is focused, taking a picture should be near instantaneous...

If I recall correctly, at least in the US...the sound was MANDATED by law, to foil upskirt photographers that were taking pics of chicks walking around in skirts without them knowing.

Apparently enough of a ruckus was raised and it was mandated that cameras on phones make a sound when they were activated.

C

 

[RLPhoto]

I have to concur that Win-8 sucks big time on a desktop. Metro has no business on a PC machine...

but on a tablet device or a phone, Its far better than my Iphone. The only reason I haven't jumped ship is that the more and more stuff you buy on itunes and the app store, the more it ties you down on the system. I couldn't switch if I wanted too with all my purchases.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

I guess I'd like to keep things separated while batteries have just enough juice for one day on those huge screen phones. I'd rather shoot as much as I like, use the flash as much as I like, without having to think if I can get through the day. (These things change rather quickly, though.)

I make pretty heavy use of my Lumia each day, and it gets at least 9 hours of battery life. It doesn't have a Xenon flash, but it does have an exceptionally bright duel LED flash (very high MCD). I'm not sure that the screen is really the primary power draw anyway...the bigger draw is usually the LTE and WiFi, both of which I keep on at all times now since AT&T went the way of Verizon, and is now capping bandwidth at 5Gb/mo (I browse enough high def photography and videos on my phone that I can burn through that).

One of the things I like about Windows Phone 8 is that it is actually quite efficient, and when the battery drops below a certain threshold, you can configure it to enter a low-power mode where it will only turn on the LTE or WiFi if you actually need to use it. That usually extends my battery another three hours, so I can usually get 12 hours a day out of my 920.

Although I'm not a smart phone user, I bought my son a smartphone for his birthday last weekend. He and I looked at the Samsung, Nokia, Motorola and Apple phones and the Nokia windows phones were very good, the display was excellent.

I ended up buying him a used iphone for a couple of reasons.
1. I did not want to be tied to a contract.
2. He has been using a ipod for several years and has a big investment in music, which would be difficult to transfer to a different device.

If not for that, the Samsung Galaxy S4 and the Nokia phones are at the top of the class.

Although the average phone buyer does not place the camera at the top of his list of priorities, buyers are certainly aware of the camera capability, and those who are photographers are even more particular.

I went to my aunts 90th birthday and took the iphone along to try it out. Although under the indoor conditions, it certainly could not compete with a DSLR, or even a good point and shoot, it did a passable job in the situation, the main issue being the low shutter speed which caused a slight blur.

 

[bchernicoff]

I thought this was a good read on the camera module: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07/15/nokia_lumia_1020_technical_walkthrough/

 

[jrista]

I have to concur that Win-8 sucks big time on a desktop. Metro has no business on a PC machine...

but on a tablet device or a phone, Its far better than my Iphone. The only reason I haven't jumped ship is that the more and more stuff you buy on itunes and the app store, the more it ties you down on the system. I couldn't switch if I wanted too with all my purchases.

It did, I agree. I think Windows 8.1 fixes most of that, though. It still isn't ideal, but a hell of a lot better than what it was. That's Microsoft's MO, though. It always takes a couple versions for quirks to iron out. Also, keep in mind, people utterly HATED Windows XP when it first hit (I remember reading scathing, hateful articles months and months after its initial release), and it was over a year before it became the most used and most loved Windows OS ever. I don't suspect things will be any different for Windows 8...and it is a hell of a lot better release than Windows Vista was (so the next major release should be a pretty significant improvement even over Win8.1).

Microsoft has a different release MO. Apple builds up an unquenchable fervor by not releasing ANY details about its releases until the day they unveil. (Well, they did....seems that may change under Cook, and I guess we'll see whether that is to the detriment of apple in the long term.) Microsoft has always approached releases with lots of software leaks, beta versions, community technology previews, etc. I think that can be good and bad, but these days, it seems it gives people too much time to play with new products before they are even released, encounter all the pre-release bugs, and decide they don't like the product. I would prefer Microsoft take the old Apple/Jobs approach. Don't release anything until its done, and when its released, make sure its solid, and make it a big party. They wouldn't lose people in the beta and CTP phase that way, they wouldn't get a bunch of pre-release bad press, and they would gain the benefit of people being antsy and excited to see and use the next greatest Microsoft thing. People just end up bored with the bugs before new Windows versions are actually released, the excitement is gone, so the release suffers, and it takes longer to build momentum.

Maybe the MS reorg will change things...but I don't really trust Ballmer to be anything other than a raging tool...so....

 

[distant.star]

If I recall correctly, at least in the US...the sound was MANDATED by law, to foil upskirt photographers that were taking pics of chicks walking around in skirts without them knowing.

Apparently enough of a ruckus was raised and it was mandated that cameras on phones make a sound when they were activated.

C

That can't possibly be law/regulation. I have a Canon Powershot A1200 that has a fully silent shutter mode. No noise whatsoever. Canon would not sell a product that did not comply with law.

 

[RLPhoto]

I have to concur that Win-8 sucks big time on a desktop. Metro has no business on a PC machine...

but on a tablet device or a phone, Its far better than my Iphone. The only reason I haven't jumped ship is that the more and more stuff you buy on itunes and the app store, the more it ties you down on the system. I couldn't switch if I wanted too with all my purchases.

It did, I agree. I think Windows 8.1 fixes most of that, though. It still isn't ideal, but a hell of a lot better than what it was. That's Microsoft's MO, though. It always takes a couple versions for quirks to iron out. Also, keep in mind, people utterly HATED Windows XP when it first hit (I remember reading scathing, hateful articles months and months after its initial release), and it was over a year before it became the most used and most loved Windows OS ever. I don't suspect things will be any different for Windows 8...and it is a hell of a lot better release than Windows Vista was (so the next major release should be a pretty significant improvement even over Win8.1).

Microsoft has a different release MO. Apple builds up an unquenchable fervor by not releasing ANY details about its releases until the day they unveil. (Well, they did....seems that may change under Cook, and I guess we'll see whether that is to the detriment of apple in the long term.) Microsoft has always approached releases with lots of software leaks, beta versions, community technology previews, etc. I think that can be good and bad, but these days, it seems it gives people too much time to play with new products before they are even released, encounter all the pre-release bugs, and decide they don't like the product. I would prefer Microsoft take the old Apple/Jobs approach. Don't release anything until its done, and when its released, make sure its solid, and make it a big party. They wouldn't lose people in the beta and CTP phase that way, they wouldn't get a bunch of pre-release bad press, and they would gain the benefit of people being antsy and excited to see and use the next greatest Microsoft thing. People just end up bored with the bugs before new Windows versions are actually released, the excitement is gone, so the release suffers, and it takes longer to build momentum.

Maybe the MS reorg will change things...but I don't really trust Ballmer to be anything other than a raging tool...so....

Windows 2000/NT - Good

Windows ME - Bad

Windows XP - Good

Windows Vista - Bad

Windows 7 - Good

Windows 8 - Bad

Windows 9 - ? Fill the blank.

I love M$ products but not when they revamp something the first time. The second attempt is usually perfect.

 

[jrista]

I have to concur that Win-8 sucks big time on a desktop. Metro has no business on a PC machine...

but on a tablet device or a phone, Its far better than my Iphone. The only reason I haven't jumped ship is that the more and more stuff you buy on itunes and the app store, the more it ties you down on the system. I couldn't switch if I wanted too with all my purchases.

It did, I agree. I think Windows 8.1 fixes most of that, though. It still isn't ideal, but a hell of a lot better than what it was. That's Microsoft's MO, though. It always takes a couple versions for quirks to iron out. Also, keep in mind, people utterly HATED Windows XP when it first hit (I remember reading scathing, hateful articles months and months after its initial release), and it was over a year before it became the most used and most loved Windows OS ever. I don't suspect things will be any different for Windows 8...and it is a hell of a lot better release than Windows Vista was (so the next major release should be a pretty significant improvement even over Win8.1).

Microsoft has a different release MO. Apple builds up an unquenchable fervor by not releasing ANY details about its releases until the day they unveil. (Well, they did....seems that may change under Cook, and I guess we'll see whether that is to the detriment of apple in the long term.) Microsoft has always approached releases with lots of software leaks, beta versions, community technology previews, etc. I think that can be good and bad, but these days, it seems it gives people too much time to play with new products before they are even released, encounter all the pre-release bugs, and decide they don't like the product. I would prefer Microsoft take the old Apple/Jobs approach. Don't release anything until its done, and when its released, make sure its solid, and make it a big party. They wouldn't lose people in the beta and CTP phase that way, they wouldn't get a bunch of pre-release bad press, and they would gain the benefit of people being antsy and excited to see and use the next greatest Microsoft thing. People just end up bored with the bugs before new Windows versions are actually released, the excitement is gone, so the release suffers, and it takes longer to build momentum.

Maybe the MS reorg will change things...but I don't really trust Ballmer to be anything other than a raging tool...so....

Windows 2000/NT - Good

Windows ME - Bad

Windows XP - Good

Windows Vista - Bad

Windows 7 - Good

Windows 8 - Bad

Windows 9 - ? Fill the blank.

I love M$ products but not when they revamp something the first time. The second attempt is usually perfect.

Yup, that's pretty much it! It would be nice if it became:

Windows 9: Good
Windows 10: Good
.
.
.
Windows N: Good

I get the feeling it will probably be more along the lines of :

Windows 8: So-So
Windows 8.1: Better
Windows 8.2: Even Better
Windows 8.5: Good
Windows 9: Better than Good
Windows 9.1: Even Better than Good

And if there are six to eight months between each release, then reaching Even Better than Good could take years. Assuming they don't end up continuing to flipflop.

 

[cayenne]

If I recall correctly, at least in the US...the sound was MANDATED by law, to foil upskirt photographers that were taking pics of chicks walking around in skirts without them knowing.

Apparently enough of a ruckus was raised and it was mandated that cameras on phones make a sound when they were activated.

C

That can't possibly be law/regulation. I have a Canon Powershot A1200 that has a fully silent shutter mode. No noise whatsoever. Canon would not sell a product that did not comply with law.

I was only talking towards camera phones...

 

[cayenne]

I have to concur that Win-8 sucks big time on a desktop. Metro has no business on a PC machine...

but on a tablet device or a phone, Its far better than my Iphone. The only reason I haven't jumped ship is that the more and more stuff you buy on itunes and the app store, the more it ties you down on the system. I couldn't switch if I wanted too with all my purchases.

It did, I agree. I think Windows 8.1 fixes most of that, though. It still isn't ideal, but a hell of a lot better than what it was. That's Microsoft's MO, though. It always takes a couple versions for quirks to iron out. Also, keep in mind, people utterly HATED Windows XP when it first hit (I remember reading scathing, hateful articles months and months after its initial release), and it was over a year before it became the most used and most loved Windows OS ever. I don't suspect things will be any different for Windows 8...and it is a hell of a lot better release than Windows Vista was (so the next major release should be a pretty significant improvement even over Win8.1).

Microsoft has a different release MO. Apple builds up an unquenchable fervor by not releasing ANY details about its releases until the day they unveil. (Well, they did....seems that may change under Cook, and I guess we'll see whether that is to the detriment of apple in the long term.) Microsoft has always approached releases with lots of software leaks, beta versions, community technology previews, etc. I think that can be good and bad, but these days, it seems it gives people too much time to play with new products before they are even released, encounter all the pre-release bugs, and decide they don't like the product. I would prefer Microsoft take the old Apple/Jobs approach. Don't release anything until its done, and when its released, make sure its solid, and make it a big party. They wouldn't lose people in the beta and CTP phase that way, they wouldn't get a bunch of pre-release bad press, and they would gain the benefit of people being antsy and excited to see and use the next greatest Microsoft thing. People just end up bored with the bugs before new Windows versions are actually released, the excitement is gone, so the release suffers, and it takes longer to build momentum.

Maybe the MS reorg will change things...but I don't really trust Ballmer to be anything other than a raging tool...so....

Windows 2000/NT - Good

Windows ME - Bad

Windows XP - Good

Windows Vista - Bad

Windows 7 - Good

Windows 8 - Bad

Windows 9 - ? Fill the blank.

I love M$ products but not when they revamp something the first time. The second attempt is usually perfect.

Yup, that's pretty much it! It would be nice if it became:

Windows 9: Good
Windows 10: Good
.
.
.
Windows N: Good

I get the feeling it will probably be more along the lines of :

Windows 8: So-So
Windows 8.1: Better
Windows 8.2: Even Better
Windows 8.5: Good
Windows 9: Better than Good
Windows 9.1: Even Better than Good

And if there are six to eight months between each release, then reaching Even Better than Good could take years. Assuming they don't end up continuing to flipflop.

I think windows 8.x would be likely received MUCH better, if they would give the user the choice, especially with respect to a real computer (laptop/tower) to completely divorce the Metro UI from the system and allow you to go fully and ONLY into a classic desktop only paradigm.

I think that's largely the main gripe about it, trying to use a tablet UI on a desktop (even if it had touch, not many want to keep their arms up off the desk a lot, constantly touching the screen)....

I hear Win8 is pretty snappy and does good things with memory management, but if they don't allow classic computer users to turn Metro OFF, I think they're gonna lose business. People are NOT in a rush to migrate off Win7, businesses certainly aren't going to migrate, heck, they're just now coming off XP still in many cases.

I mean, look at Apple...they don't have the same OS on the tablet/phone that they have on the computer...iOS vs OSX...different beasts. Sure, they are converging to some extent, but not to the same extent MS tried with Win8.

My $0.02,

cayenne

 

[RLPhoto]

^-------- My gripe with apple is this. In 2006, Ditched all my Apple computers for my first PC build thats still doing work for me today.

Buy a new Idevice, It needs a new itunes.
New Itunes needs a new OSX.
New OSX requires a New Machine.
Old Programs will not run on new OSX.
Buy new programs for the new OSX.
Rinse and Repeat every 24 months.

OSX - Windows - Linux. Pick your poison.

:|