There are still surprises in store for the Canon EOS R5 announcement [CR2]

Chz

EOS 90D
Nov 19, 2014
157
53
Alternatively what I do for quick Exp Comp change when also having Manual Moed with Auto ISO in DSLR series is to assign it to the SET button. It changes by pressing the button and turning the main dial. Very fast and it works on EOS 5DIV, 5Ds(R), 7DII, 90D, EOS R...
Good suggestion! I am doing that on my 5D3. I can hold the Set button and turn the Multifunction dial to move the ISO from Auto but I cannot move it back to Auto. Not sure if the 5D4 can do it?

On the R I can press the M-Fn buttin then turn the top dial to change ISO. In away the 4th button.

I have assigned the ISO to the 'Bar' button but as everyone knows, the touch sensitivity isn't reliable.
 

privatebydesign

I don't preorder, I'm not a paid beta tester!
Jan 29, 2011
8,820
2,749
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Alternatively what I do for quick Exp Comp change when also having Manual Moed with Auto ISO in DSLR series is to assign it to the SET button. It changes by pressing the button and turning the main dial. Very fast and it works on EOS 5DIV, 5Ds(R), 7DII, 90D, EOS R...
As do the 1 series.

It’s funny I have been doing that so long I assumed everybody did it, manual mode with auto iso (what a misnomer) can be a great addition to the other exposure modes but instant access to the EC is important.
 

Chz

EOS 90D
Nov 19, 2014
157
53
‘Manual‘ with auto iso is not manual mode as you are relying on the camera auto exposure to set the EV. Why is that so hard to understand?

To call it ’manual’ when the camera is setting one parameter is a misnomer, how can manual mode without auto iso and manual mode with auto iso be called the same thing? Besides the point is still valid, if you are in manual with auto iso you are, by definition not setting the iso, the camera is, so you don’t need a dial for it! But you would need one for EC. As I have said a lot, there are three metrics combined to make an exposure, ergo you only possibly need three dials to fully control everything in any mode, if you leave one to the camera you drop that one but need EC instead.
I wonder why Canon and other manufacturers called that M on their mode dial? Regardless you want to continue arguing the M definition. You may not need or want the 4th dial. It does not mean that Canon shouldn't offer it!

I prefer the same function assigned to the same dial and button so I don't need to think when switching between modes.

The difference between changing the iso as opposed to Auto and use exposure compensation is I am still able to let the metering what I am shooting and can quickly fine tune the exposure regardless which mode I am in as long as the iso is in Auto. That's muscle memory

Btw, I have never argued about the exposure triangles.
 

privatebydesign

I don't preorder, I'm not a paid beta tester!
Jan 29, 2011
8,820
2,749
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I wonder why Canon and other manufacturers called that M on their mode dial? Regardless you want to continue arguing the M definition. You may not need or want the 4th dial. It does not mean that Canon shouldn't offer it!

I prefer the same function assigned to the same dial and button so I don't need to think when switching between modes.

The difference between changing the iso as opposed to Auto and use exposure compensation is I am still able to let the metering what I am shooting and can quickly fine tune the exposure regardless which mode I am in as long as the iso is in Auto. That's muscle memory

Btw, I have never argued about the exposure triangles.
I wonder that too. You didn’t answer my question though, if M and M mode with auto iso are not the same thing why should they both be called manual? Or put another way, if the camera is setting one of the three metrics for EV how is that manual?

But wether you agree on the definition of manual is irrelevant, in your definition (with auto iso) you still only need three dials, one for aperture, ss, and EC, in my definition (actual manual) you need three dials, one for aperture, ss and iso. There is no combination of exposure modes where you need four dials so from an ergonomics point of view it is redundant and inefficient. Even with only two dials changing any of the four metrics can be done effortlessly with one hand and a couple of digits, maybe that’s why they do it like that?
 
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privatebydesign

I don't preorder, I'm not a paid beta tester!
Jan 29, 2011
8,820
2,749
120
there's no free lunch. you can play around with it already if you have a 5D Mark IV or a EOS R - simply use dual pixel RAW. and use rawdigger to extract both images and merge them. you can see it's not a perfect alignment.

Anyways, I don't know .. maybe canon's auto correcting in DIGIC - who knows.
Dual pixel RAW and DGO work in completely different ways. DGO takes two readings from the same pixel, DP-RAW takes a reading from each sub pixel, the difference might seem small but it is fundamentally different. There is no possibility for any alignment issues or ‘refocusing‘ in post with DGO.
 

degos

EOS RP
Mar 20, 2015
291
209
I wonder why Canon and other manufacturers called that M on their mode dial?
Because it was pure Manual mode for 30 years of the EF system until Canon copied AutoISO for some unfathomable reason. You still have to juggle three parameters so what's the advantage?
 
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tpatana

EOS R
Nov 1, 2012
1,444
188
I wonder why Canon and other manufacturers called that M on their mode dial?
Porsche recently released electric vehicle with "Turbo" on the name. I give you $100 if you find turbo (other than name) on that vehicle.
 

Joules

EOS R
Jul 16, 2017
910
1,007
Hamburg, Germany
Dual pixel RAW and DGO work in completely different ways. DGO takes two readings from the same pixel, DP-RAW takes a reading from each sub pixel, the difference might seem small but it is fundamentally different. There is no possibility for any alignment issues or ‘refocusing‘ in post with DGO.
There actually appears to be conflicting information on how DGO works from Canon. TDP has a quote from Canon's last digital event about it, that suggests to me the two image halfes are involved. Which also seemingly contradicts their other marketing. And of course, he only mentions that there are no temporal artifacts, but stay quiet about those from parallax.

"How does it do that? Each pixel on the sensor is split into two different diodes. Those diodes are always taking two frames of the exact same image. Now for Dual Pixel autofocus, it's using those two frames for phase detection. However, the Canon engineers realized that they can use those two different frames and value them at different gains in order to expand the dynamic range. And so what is happening here is that off of diode A you have one image that is low gain and low noise. Off of diode B you're getting a frame that is of higher gain, but it satisfies the pixel's need for saturation. So, these two separate frames that are of the same image of the exact same point in time but at two separate gains are combined and then dumped out of the sensor. Because these frames are of the exact same point in time and of the exact same image, there is absolutely zero temporal artifacting happening in this" (Source)

Do you have a better source for how Canon has pulled off DGO? I would be very interested, as the marketing I've seen seems somewhat lacking as far as proper explanations go.
 
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koenkooi

EOS R
Feb 25, 2015
1,168
961
There actually appears to be conflicting information on how DGO works from Canon. TDP has a quote from Canon's last digital event about it, that suggests to me the two image halfes are involved. Which also seemingly contradicts their other marketing. And of course, he only mentions that there are no temporal artifacts, but stay quiet about those from parallax.

"How does it do that? Each pixel on the sensor is split into two different diodes. Those diodes are always taking two frames of the exact same image. Now for Dual Pixel autofocus, it's using those two frames for phase detection. However, the Canon engineers realized that they can use those two different frames and value them at different gains in order to expand the dynamic range. And so what is happening here is that off of diode A you have one image that is low gain and low noise. Off of diode B you're getting a frame that is of higher gain, but it satisfies the pixel's need for saturation. So, these two separate frames that are of the same image of the exact same point in time but at two separate gains are combined and then dumped out of the sensor. Because these frames are of the exact same point in time and of the exact same image, there is absolutely zero temporal artifacting happening in this" (Source)

Do you have a better source for how Canon has pulled off DGO? I would be very interested, as the marketing I've seen seems somewhat lacking as far as proper explanations go.
Here's the follow up from Canon. Skip to about 0:50 to hear him say "Apart from 'dual' in the name DGO is very separate from our venerable DPAF".
 

Joules

EOS R
Jul 16, 2017
910
1,007
Hamburg, Germany
Here's the follow up from Canon. Skip to about 0:50 to hear him say "Apart from 'dual' in the name DGO is very separate from our venerable DPAF".
I find that clarification lacking though.

He claims to give a more technical insight, but actually goes into less detail compared to his previous statement that I quoted.

Of course it's possible that the existence of the follow up is an indirect way for Canon to say "we have put out false information in the past". But I would like to see a more technical description of how it actually works. Do they really amplydy each diode twice? So, both diodes per pixel, amplify each twice, combine the two high amp values, combine the two low amp values and then merge those two for the HDR output? Or is it different? I am mostly just curious. But if it does indeed come with parallax artifacts due to amplifying the two halves differently, I can't see it coming to stills.
 

Chz

EOS 90D
Nov 19, 2014
157
53
Because it was pure Manual mode for 30 years of the EF system until Canon copied AutoISO for some unfathomable reason. You still have to juggle three parameters so what's the advantage?
Exposure compensation as I per my multiple replies to tpatana and PrivatebyDesign.
 
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Chz

EOS 90D
Nov 19, 2014
157
53
I wonder that too. You didn’t answer my question though, if M and M mode with auto iso are not the same thing why should they both be called manual? Or put another way, if the camera is setting one of the three metrics for EV how is that manual?

But wether you agree on the definition of manual is irrelevant, in your definition (with auto iso) you still only need three dials, one for aperture, ss, and EC, in my definition (actual manual) you need three dials, one for aperture, ss and iso. There is no combination of exposure modes where you need four dials so from an ergonomics point of view it is redundant and inefficient. Even with only two dials changing any of the four metrics can be done effortlessly with one hand and a couple of digits, maybe that’s why they do it like that?
And if it isn’t then why Canon put the M on the mode dial??? The M has always been Manual since the film day as Degios said. Adding Auto ISO doesn’t mean the M is no longer the case. You still have independent aperture and shutter speed adjustments.

Again, you are missing the point or just ignored my use case. I prefer to have dedicated dial for each of the triangle (Aperture/ShutterSpeed/ISO). Plus 1 for exposure compensation. I set the mode dial to M (Look up the user manual for definition if you like) and ISO to Auto. I set my preferred Shutter speed and Aperture. it’s much quicker for me to fine tune the exposure by turning the exposure compensation dial. You may prefer to change the ISO setting from Auto but first you need to check what is the ‘current’ ISO value then pump it up and down to get the exposure you want. Then you have to move the ISO back to Auto. Where I simply turn the exposure compensation up or down for the shot then turn it back to the ‘0’ on the metering indicator.
 

tss68nl

EOS M50
Sep 2, 2014
26
3
Having the camera in manual mode, and setting ISO to auto only has very few use cases.

You will have to manually control the exposure with Exposure Compensation to keep it from blowing out highlights when it cannot go lower than 100 (50) ISO. It means the auto ISO only helps you if you deliberately keep your ISO around a much higher number, absolutely don't want another shutter speed, absolutely need to keep background blur, ánd don't have vastly changing conditions.

For most pictures I find dynamic range and noise much more important than background blur or shutter speed. So I'd use Av or Tv. It's such a small area of use cases that ISO is actually not important.
 

sobrien

I'm New Here
Apr 26, 2020
22
37
Because it was pure Manual mode for 30 years of the EF system until Canon copied AutoISO for some unfathomable reason. You still have to juggle three parameters so what's the advantage?
Advantages and uses for M with auto ISO are pretty obvious. You’re either b
And if it isn’t then why Canon put the M on the mode dial??? The M has always been Manual since the film day as Degios said. Adding Auto ISO doesn’t mean the M is no longer the case. You still have independent aperture and shutter speed adjustments.

Again, you are missing the point or just ignored my use case. I prefer to have dedicated dial for each of the triangle (Aperture/ShutterSpeed/ISO). Plus 1 for exposure compensation. I set the mode dial to M (Look up the user manual for definition if you like) and ISO to Auto. I set my preferred Shutter speed and Aperture. it’s much quicker for me to fine tune the exposure by turning the exposure compensation dial. You may prefer to change the ISO setting from Auto but first you need to check what is the ‘current’ ISO value then pump it up and down to get the exposure you want. Then you have to move the ISO back to Auto. Where I simply turn the exposure compensation up or down for the shot then turn it back to the ‘0’ on the metering indicator.
The other very obvious point is using auto allows for changing light conditions. EC then allows you to offset against that, e.g in very high contrast situations where you want to retain highlights you might dial a n -1, or in other situations you might dial in + 1 for a proper ETRR. M with auto ISO is undeniably useful and I’m surprised that anyone would try to argue otherwise.
 
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TominNJ

EOS M6 Mark II
Mar 14, 2015
56
51
Brownie mode:

fixed focus 50mm lens

choice of 2 apertures for cloudy or bright

uses 12 mp cards camera takes 1 mp images so maximum 12 pictures then card is locked and you wait a week to see the images
 

Twinix

C100 III + R6?
May 6, 2020
55
28
Norway
Porsche recently released electric vehicle with "Turbo" on the name. I give you $100 if you find turbo (other than name) on that vehicle.
Turbos the ego of the driver, plus its in the manual and probably on the interior somewhere.
 

Chz

EOS 90D
Nov 19, 2014
157
53
Advantages and uses for M with auto ISO are pretty obvious. You’re either b


The other very obvious point is using auto allows for changing light conditions. EC then allows you to offset against that, e.g in very high contrast situations where you want to retain highlights you might dial a n -1, or in other situations you might dial in + 1 for a proper ETRR. M with auto ISO is undeniably useful and I’m surprised that anyone would try to argue otherwise.
THANK YOU! You explained way better than I could.