There are still surprises in store for the Canon EOS R5 announcement [CR2]

[highdesertmesa]

It’s only “technically what it is” if you believe what is written in a translated manual by somebody that doesn’t know cameras, kinda like “Master and slave flashes” which have now been dropped.

If on the other hand you have an ounce of common sense then manual means the user sets the ss, aperture, and iso. Let’s use some common sense here, if the camera is setting the EV based on its meter it isn’t ’manual’ mode.

As for those saying the camera still does focus and WB so it isn’t manual, well it Only does AF of you tell it to, it only does auto WB if you tell it to, auto iso is the camera working out what to do so by the very definition of the word it isn’t manual.

I wonder how many others like me are out there? I use true M mode, set a manual Kelvin WB and mostly use non auto focus lenses, but that is because those settings are best suited to the majority of what I do. I am happy to use AF, auto WB especially the newer AWBw, and I’ll happily use ‘manual mode‘ with auto iso, but when I do I also understand the camera is setting the EV value and I have to adjust that via EC just as I do in Av and Tv modes. And if I do that I could only possibly ever need three dials to do so because there are only ever three values to change.

To my addled brain if the camera is setting the EV value it isn’t in Manual.

It would be nice if Canon added an option menu for M mode that let us check/uncheck the things we want to be decoupled when we switch to it. Being able to turn off Auto ISO and AWB and de-activate AF from the shutter button just by switching to M would be great for switching back and forth between P for single-shot-all-auto and M for panos. Additionally, it would be nice if M mode had the option to remember all last-used settings.

Right now the only way I can think of to get close is by using C1/2/3.

 

[dcm]

It’s only “technically what it is” if you believe what is written in a translated manual by somebody that doesn’t know cameras, kinda like “Master and slave flashes” which have now been dropped.

If on the other hand you have an ounce of common sense then manual means the user sets the ss, aperture, and iso. Let’s use some common sense here, if the camera is setting the EV based on its meter it isn’t ’manual’ mode.

Agreed. For those of us that date back to film days, manual meant not using the built-in metering to contol the camera. We might use the built in light meter, an external light meter or some rules of thumb like Sunny-16 or Looney-11 as a guide. Tables were sometimes printed on the camera body.



ASA/ISO was fixed based on the film speed. Typically a set and forget value when you load film. Some cameras included an exposure compensation mechanism like my Canon A-1 that simply rotated the ASA/ISO dial on the left +/- two stops but many photographers did this without the extra help. In this case I am shooting in Tv mode with 1/1000 on the shutter dial, the aperture on the lens set to f/4, and film speed set to ASA 100 with 0 exposure compensation. It doesn't matter what the camera meters, I'm controlling all of the exposure values with two dials and the aperture ring.



If I put the aperture ring setting on the lens to the green A as below, I am now set up to let the camera metering determine the exposure. Since I've set the shutter speed (Tv) to 1/1000 the camera will determine the aperture. If I change the shutter dial to Av mode and choose the aperture, the camera will then set the shutter speed. The green P mode (next to 1000) was Programmed aperture which let the camera set both the shutter speed and aperture value. The A-1 was among the first cameras that provided this level of control which is why I purchased it - I shot much more in M and Av mode than Tv. The more popular (and cheaper) AE-1 only supported manual or shutter priority where you set the shutter speed and ASA/ISO while the camera determined the aperture. The AV-1 provided aperture priority (camera set the shutter) but not manual.



Fast forward 40 years to my M6 mark II with Fv that allows me to easily control any combination of the exposure settings using the thumb (quick control) dial and shutter (main) dial. The thumb dial choses which value I want to control - currently the exposure compensation with the green wheel in the image below. The shuttter dial let's me dial it up or down. In this case I'd be shooting full auto, but I can easily set the Tv, Av, and ISO values to get full manual all while looking through the viewfinder. It's quickly become my most used mode along with the small brightness histogram (not shown) that provides a much better indication of exposure level for ETTR when I control everything using just the two dials.



With this method you don't predetermine the mode on the mode dial. You simple set the values you want and let the camera pick the others. And I guess manual would mean that there are not AUTOs showing.

 

[tpatana]

How about compromise.

3 dials. SS, F and Iso.

And if you set auto-iso, the iso-dial changes to EC?

Deal?

 

[Quarkcharmed]

I've always found Auto ISO in Manual very annoying. I do understand it may be useful in certain scenarios but it's always been useless to me, and I have had spoilt images when ISO accidentally turned to Auto.

I've shot concerts/action with random stage light in full manual, and I do use metering (as it's shown in the viewfinder and in the live view). When I control ISO manually, I still see the metering indicator and I can compensate using either aperture, shutter or ISO.

For landscapes, I always use Manual plus histogram, any compensation is totally useless there.

 

[MrToes]

Pixel Shift function same as the Sony would be nice ! ! !

 

[privatebydesign]

I've always found Auto ISO in Manual very annoying. I do understand it may be useful in certain scenarios but it's always been useless to me, and I have had spoilt images when ISO accidentally turned to Auto.

I've shot concerts/action with random stage light in full manual, and I do use metering (as it's shown in the viewfinder and in the live view). When I control ISO manually, I still see the metering indicator and I can compensate using either aperture, shutter or ISO.

For landscapes, I always use Manual plus histogram, any compensation is totally useless there.

I use it, one instance would be light limited situations where the subject illumination is not constant. So if I am using the 300 f2.8 I’ll peg the aperture at f2.8, I’ll know I need ss of x value for any given subject so will set that, then I let the iso ride up and down to get the right EV in the changing light, I’ll put in EC to adjust for the subject reflectance based on previous experience or a few test shots and chimping But normally set it and forget it. But the truth is the results are very similar settings to P mode, indeed P mode will set basically the same metrics and before auto iso I used to use P mode much more, shiftable P mode with lens focal length aware ss is a very solid exposure mode in my experience.

 

[Graphic.Artifacts]

Idealy, using auto ISO should deliver the lowest posible ISO when your shutter speed can't go any lower without blur and your lens is wide open. I may not always like the ISO selected but it's not as if there was a better alternative available. In Av or T mode I'd have to select a higher ISO or risk underexposure/motion blur.

I can't think of any reason why I wouldn't work that way all of the time if we get to the point where ISO and gain don't significantly effect IQ.

edit: "ISO" on digital cameras is an artificial construct for managing inefficiencies in the sensors. When sensor development overcomes those inefficiencies I'd be happy to never think about ISO ever again.

 

[koenkooi]

Because the mode is set to manual? I agree it's stupid but that's techically what it is. It is posible to use auto iso when set to other modes (Av, T ) although that would be an odd way to work in my opinion. Of course as soon as I say that somebody will say they do it all the time. [..]

Raises hand

When chasing my kids in and around the house, I have the M6II on Av, auto ISO and "Min. shutter spd." set to +1. Near a window, away from windows, inside a blanket fort or outside in the garden, it produces decent enough pictures. I'd use P mode if that wasn't trying to pick f/5.6 most of the times. When using flash, auto ISO needs to get disabled, since it really likes ISO 1600.

So, a really specific use case, but that's how the M is configured most of the time, since it's on the table in the living room to be quickly grabbed to take a picture.

For making things even less user specified: an option to automatically use e-shutter if you need above 1/4000 in auto-shutter modes would be nice as well. On the 2 sunny days a year when it might be needed

 

[Kit.]

Why not just call it auto iso mode?

Because there are multiple different modes with "auto iso"?

Calling it manual with auto iso is stupid because it is not manual.

How about calling it manual with TTL flash?

i actually use the mode and like it, but to keep calling it manual when the camera sets the exposure value is rediculous.

It doesn't. The exposure value in photography does not include ISO.

 

[tpatana]

It doesn't. The exposure value in photography does not include ISO.

Care to explain?

 

[Kit.]

Care to explain?

Exposure value - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Quarkcharmed]

It doesn't. The exposure value in photography does not include ISO.

Formally it doesn't but in practice we have the 'exposure triangle' which includes ISO.

Shutter speed and aperture control the amount of light and ISO controls the media sensitivity. ISO value determines the required exposure.

 

[SecureGSM]

Focus shift, what else?

No thank you. Pixel shift instead please

 

[Joules]

Shutter speed and aperture control the amount of light and ISO controls the media sensitivity. ISO value determines the required exposure.

Technically, ISO is just about amplification of the signal. If your signal is too weak to be picked up by the sensor at ISO 100, it will still be too weak at ISO 12800. But at the higher ISO, read noise becomes less apparent compared to the signal. So if your signal is detected, it may be visible better in the image at the higher ISO.

I believe thinking of the exposure triangle as including ISO can be distracting. There are a lot of people who believe high ISO values causes noisy images, when in reality low amounts of light do. And those are controlled by the other too parameters.

 

[degos]

"Sunny-16 or Looney-11"

I always liked the nickname Apollo-11 for that exposure!

 

[degos]

EC then allows you to offset against that, e.g in very high contrast situations where you want to retain highlights you might dial a n -1, or in other situations you might dial in + 1

But why bother with EC when directly changing the ISO *does exactly the same thing*?

That's what I don't understand about Auto ISO. You're simply abstracting the EV behind another layer of complexity. Just adjust the three basic parameters to put the exposure where you want it; +1, -3, whatever and stop fighting the camera with EC adjustments.

Imagine if there was a Manual mode with Auto Shutter Speed. What on earth would be the point? Auto ISO is the same concept; you're surrendering control of the exposure to the camera.

 

[BillB]

Imagine if there was a Manual mode with Auto Shutter Speed. What on earth would be the point? Auto ISO is the same concept; you're surrendering control of the exposure to the camera

Shooting fast with changing light levels auto iso lets you work with composition, shutter speed and aperture without needing to worry so much about ISO going between sunlight and shadow etc.
edit. In Manual with auto ISO you can control ISO by changing either shutter, aperture or exposure comp.

 

[CvH]

Imagine if there was a Manual mode with Auto Shutter Speed. What on earth would be the point? Auto ISO is the same concept; you're surrendering control of the exposure to the camera.

It's called Av. I will be surprised if you haven't used this mode.

 

[Quarkcharmed]

I believe thinking of the exposure triangle as including ISO can be distracting.

But it does include ISO by definition. However the exposure triangle isn't about exposure, it's about relationship between ISO, shutter speed and aperture.

 

[Kit.]

Formally it doesn't but in practice we have the 'exposure triangle' which includes ISO.

In practice, we can correct "ISO" in post if we haven't blown out highlights. And with an ISO invariant sensor, we wouldn't lose shadows.

Shutter speed and aperture control the amount of light and ISO controls the media sensitivity. ISO value determines the required exposure.

It determines the exposure that a light meter would "want". It doesn't determine the exposure the photographer will get in manual mode (with or without auto-ISO).

In a camera with an ISO invariant sensor, ISO in manual mode could affect the final RAW image just as a hint to a RAW converter, like white balance. Auto-ISO or not.