There are still surprises in store for the Canon EOS R5 announcement [CR2]

jolyonralph

EOS R5 Mark II
Aug 25, 2015
1,307
639
London, UK
www.everyothershot.com
Auto ISO is the same concept; you're surrendering control of the exposure to the camera.
Bad choice of term. You're not surrendering anything. You have a tool that can calculate optimal exposure in a thousandth of a second based on a multitude of different input parameters, there's no reason not to use it, much in the same way that you don't NEED to rely on autofocus, you can use manual focus.

I find it odd that some photographers think that you need to shoot in M all the time or you're somehow not a real photographer. I'm probably shooting mostly in Av mode except in the rare case that I'm after fast action, and then it's Tv. I use M mode for things like macro photography where I'm taking shots slowly and I'm more in control of the variables, or on studio shoots where I have a specific studio flash speed/power dialed in. But all other times I let the camera deal with all that crap, because it's much faster than I am. And that means leaving it on auto ISO most of the time too.

With mirrorless cameras and more intelligent scene analysis AI, the camera's ability to get a better exposure than you can do manually is only going to increase.

I'm all for those starting out in photography sticking with M for a while as a tool to understand properly how the camera works. But once you've mastered that, using the camera's capabilities properly isn't cheating at all.
 
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Quarkcharmed

EOS 5DMkIV
Feb 14, 2018
1,174
1,025
Australia
www.michaelborisenko.com
In practice, we can correct "ISO" in post if we haven't blown out highlights. And with an ISO invariant sensor, we wouldn't lose shadows.
With ISO-invariant sensor, you can just increase the exposure in post: +1 stop = ISO * 2.
It doesn't matter if you have or haven't blown out highlights, you just get the same result with increased exposure as you'd have gotten it with the higher ISO number.

Still, even with ISO-invariant sensors, the base ISO matters.
 

Kit.

EOS 5D Mark IV
Apr 25, 2011
1,919
1,261
With ISO-invariant sensor, you can just increase the exposure in post: +1 stop = ISO * 2.
It doesn't matter if you have or haven't blown out highlights, you just get the same result with increased exposure as you'd have gotten it with the higher ISO number.

Still, even with ISO-invariant sensors, the base ISO matters.
Yes, except for the inconvenience of the EVF as a low-DR medium.
 

Del Paso

M3 Singlestroke
Aug 9, 2018
841
877
Brownie mode:

fixed focus 50mm lens

choice of 2 apertures for cloudy or bright

uses 12 mp cards camera takes 1 mp images so maximum 12 pictures then card is locked and you wait a week to see the images
Brownie rules !
 

sobrien

I'm New Here
Apr 26, 2020
22
37
But why bother with EC when directly changing the ISO *does exactly the same thing*?

That's what I don't understand about Auto ISO. You're simply abstracting the EV behind another layer of complexity. Just adjust the three basic parameters to put the exposure where you want it; +1, -3, whatever and stop fighting the camera with EC adjustments.

Imagine if there was a Manual mode with Auto Shutter Speed...
The clue is in the bit of my post that you didn’t quote that referred to changing light conditions.
 
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Whowe

Looking for 7D Mark ii upgrade??
Mar 4, 2020
107
112
Of course I have, are you missing the point of it? It increases the dynamic range at low (base) iso it does nothing for higher iso readout DR. The additional readout is at 5,000 iso and is for better shadow detail when sampled at the same time as the native 800 iso.
The key point I think some people might miss here is that you still have to expose for the lower "base" iso. This will give you better DR in the shadows when you are at that base iso, but is your are still exposing for that base iso (800 in this case) it will not help you get better shutter speed with slow lenses.
 

Whowe

Looking for 7D Mark ii upgrade??
Mar 4, 2020
107
112
Of course he/she does.

He/she also understands that there is if you set ISO to auto.

And he/she understands that Fv mode is potentially the only mode you will ever need - the clue is in the name, flexible - so having a dial for EC would make sense. The R5 is giving us four dials (including lens control ring) so let’s see if the have figured out a way to make that work.

The problem is that you’d need a fifth dial to select between variables for the purpose of resetting to auto (which is the key functionality of Fv mode). Actually, now that I think about it, that’s where holding “set” and moving the top dial might come into play. You could use the same button to do the resetting even. That could work, I think.
I don't understand. To set any of the three settings to auto, you would just rotate the dial to the lowest setting and the next lower click is auto. Similar to the way Fuji manual dials are set up. (i.e. iso dial starts at "auto," 100, 200, 400, etc.) You could use the "set" button in the center of the EC dial to "reset" it to zero to make that very simple.

If you have settings that are very high that you want to jump back and forth to from auto (i.e. SS auto or 1250), then you use you custom functions for that specific use case.

So, I don't see a fifth dial, and 4 dials would allow the settings to always be at a specific location/dial. I realize some people don't use the auto feature much and many people may not use the FV mode yet, but that doesn't mean the it would not be a good idea to have the controls.
 

slclick

Cyclist, photog, drummer & sardonic haiku writer
Dec 17, 2013
4,125
2,065
Bad choice of term. You're not surrendering anything. You have a tool that can calculate optimal exposure in a thousandth of a second based on a multitude of different input parameters, there's no reason not to use it, much in the same way that you don't NEED to rely on autofocus, you can use manual focus.

I find it odd that some photographers think that you need to shoot in M all the time or you're somehow not a real photographer. I'm probably shooting mostly in Av mode except in the rare case that I'm after fast action, and then it's Tv. I use M mode for things like macro photography where I'm taking shots slowly and I'm more in control of the variables, or on studio shoots where I have a specific studio flash speed/power dialed in. But all other times I let the camera deal with all that crap, because it's much faster than I am. And that means leaving it on auto ISO most of the time too.

With mirrorless cameras and more intelligent scene analysis AI, the camera's ability to get a better exposure than you can do manually is only going to increase.

I'm all for those starting out in photography sticking with M for a while as a tool to understand properly how the camera works. But once you've mastered that, using the camera's capabilities properly isn't cheating at all.
I love using auto iso, albeit I use it in very narrow ranges so it's not a cavalier and 'let the camera set it' type of control issue. i.e 100-800 or 400-3200. As for EC dials from other manufacturers, I have always scratched my head over them. I have wondered how it is utilized when you have already selected a set iso or an auto range. What am I missing here?
 
Nov 3, 2014
698
507
If you're metering a scene for which the spot meter is useful in the first place, then being able to link that to the focus point is immensely useful since it's probably a 100% chance that the object you want to expose for is also what you want in focus.

If you're using the spot meter the "old fashioned way" then you're right, because there's no really good reason to use the spot meter the old fashioned way anymore, linked to the focus point or not.
That sounds reasonable. Canon includes it on the 1 series cameras so I guess it has it's fans. Personally, I could live without it but if others find it useful that's OK by me. I wouldn't suggest using unless you know exactly what you are trying to accomplish. But if you have a 1 series the assumption is you should know what you're about.

I just don't see where it's worth the constant attention it gets. That likely has more to do with people feeling like they are being denied something than it's actual usefulness. But, I feel that way about a lot of other features so who am I to judge.
 
Nov 3, 2014
698
507
I love using auto iso, albeit I use it in very narrow ranges so it's not a cavalier and 'let the camera set it' type of control issue. i.e 100-800 or 400-3200. As for EC dials from other manufacturers, I have always scratched my head over them. I have wondered how it is utilized when you have already selected a set iso or an auto range. What am I missing here?
If I understand you question: Mainly you need EC with auto ISO when the meter isn't reading the scene properly. Evaluative metering is good but not perfect.

Generally speaking:

I find EC most helpful with auto ISO when you are shooting high DR scenes or backlit subjects and you don't want to let the meter blow out the highlights (or if that's exactly what you want). If there is a lot of DR and a high ISO the meter can chose to sacrifice highlights which I hate. You can monitor the histogram or turn on highlight blinkies and add neg EC when the exposure threatens highlight detail.

You can also use it to add positive EC to a low contrast scene to expose to the right when highlights aren't at risk but the benefits of that aren't as significant.

You can accomplish all of that any number of other ways but I find auto ISO most helpful when I know the light will be challenging and I'll need to react to changes in the light very quickly.

On the Canon bodies I own, you push the Set button and rotate the top/finger control wheel to change EC while in Auto ISO. It's quick and painless. The don't need another wheel or control IMO. Although it would be nice if that set/wheel configuration reverted to changing ISO when you weren't in auto ISO mode.
 
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Chz

EOS 90D
Nov 19, 2014
157
53
That sounds reasonable. Canon includes it on the 1 series cameras so I guess it has it's fans. Personally, I could live without it but if others find it useful that's OK by me. I wouldn't suggest using unless you know exactly what you are trying to accomplish. But if you have a 1 series the assumption is you should know what you're about.

I just don't see where it's worth the constant attention it gets. That likely has more to do with people feeling like they are being denied something than it's actual usefulness. But, I feel that way about a lot of other features so who am I to judge.
I have a friend who primarily shoot portrait and occasionally event. He’s going to get the 1DXII or 1DXIII instead or the R5, just because the R5 doesn’t have spot focal links to metering.
 

Chz

EOS 90D
Nov 19, 2014
157
53
If I understand you question: Mainly you need EC with auto ISO when the meter isn't reading the scene properly. Evaluative metering is good but not perfect.

Generally speaking:

I find EC most helpful with auto ISO when you are shooting high DR scenes or backlit subjects and you don't want to let the meter blow out the highlights (or if that's exactly what you want). If there is a lot of DR and a high ISO the meter can chose to sacrifice highlights which I hate. You can monitor the histogram or turn on highlight blinkies and add neg EC when the exposure threatens highlight detail.

You can also use it to add positive EC to a low contrast scene to expose to the right when highlights aren't at risk but the benefits of that aren't as significant.

You can accomplish all of that any number of other ways but I find auto ISO most helpful when I know the light will be challenging and I'll need to react to changes in the light very quickly.

On the Canon bodies I own, you push the Set button and rotate the top/finger control wheel to change EC while in Auto ISO. It's quick and painless. The don't need another wheel or control IMO. Although it would be nice if that set/wheel configuration reverted to changing ISO when you weren't in auto ISO mode.
Bingo. I assigned EC to the Lens Control Ring on my R.

That is exactly my point of having an additional dial should I wan to move from Auto ISO and back quickly.
 
Nov 3, 2014
698
507
It's not important enough to be a deal breaker, which is precisely why is so annoying to see these sorts of things left out. It's artificial segmentation taken to the extreme. Luckily, it looks like Canon may be done with that sort of thing, so thanks Sony.
Canon puts features in $6500 bodies that they don't include in $3500 bodies. Who say's it's artificial. I don't know that's true. Are you saying Sony doesn't include additional features in their higher priced models. All company's do that.
 
Nov 3, 2014
698
507
I have a friend who primarily shoot portrait and occasionally event. He’s going to get the 1DXII or 1DXIII instead or the R5, just because the R5 doesn’t have spot focal links to metering.
People do all kinds of things I don't understand. I don't think we know that about the R5 yet. At least I don't know that yet. My last word on this subject. I genuinely have zero interest in it and wished I hadn't gotten involved. I've learned my lesson.
 
Nov 3, 2014
698
507
Anyone who's being honest has to admit that Canon, as the market leader for ages, as gotten away with stuff no other manufacturer could have. Yes, every manufacture segments their products. NO, not every manufacture disables things in software for no good reason. Most of the time a higher end camera is a superset of the next step down, with Canon, you would often have a lower end models that did something a higher end model didn't do, and vice versa. And no including 24p until there's an outcry is a uniquely Canon move. Or MJPEG only for 4k.

I do honestly find it surprising that Canon has an army of fanboys who defend this nonsense.

And no, I'm OBVOUSLY NOT saying Sony doesn't include additional features in higher end models. I'm saying Sony came along a lit a fire under Canon's ass, and we all benefit from that.
I wouldn't do business with a company that I felt that way about so it's hard to understand why you are here TBH. Do whatever you want. Nobody cares. Anybody who calls out your BS is always a fanboy. I've seen this movie and it always ends the same. It's just tedious and boring. If you don't like Canon fine. Get on with your life. Nobody's stopping you. I don't know why you have to come here and whine about it.
 

Joules

EOS R
Jul 16, 2017
910
1,007
Hamburg, Germany
it's hard to understand why you are here TBH. Do whatever you want. Nobody cares.
Is the guy deleting his posts himself or is that somebody on the forum side doing it?

If so, I don't think that's right. Critizing Canon is fair game, with the kind of stuff they pull. They actually left out 24 p, FFS. I know, they probably looked at the market and did it for reasons that are understandable from their perspective. But it is just such a Canon thing to do, it almost beats the release of the 700D.

Throwing "fanboy" around towards people defending Canon's strategies is just as silly of course, as I don't think anybody actually cherishes the segmentation. But if that is what it takes for Canon to offer us what we do like about our gear and be happy with their economics, we can live with it.

If having that back and forth is too much for the forum censors I am not surprised we've seen so few actual trolls recently. But it makes me concerned.
 

degos

EOS RP
Mar 20, 2015
291
209
If you're relying on the metering to adjust AutoISO
Bad choice of term. You're not surrendering anything. You have a tool that can calculate optimal exposure in a thousandth of a second based on a multitude of different input parameters, there's no reason not to use it, much in the same way that you don't NEED to rely on autofocus, you can use manual focus.
It's not optimal exposure, because the camera never knows what you're exposing or what your intention is. It makes a best guess against an average scene.

Of course you can say "but I give it hints through EC". To which I say "why not just expose it yourself then ".

Imagine an AF system that defaulted to focusing on an 'average target' like a face and you constantly had to twiddle Focus Compensation to adjust it to a focal plane 1 metre closer for your composition... plenty of people would be saying 'just put it in MF mode and do it yourself'.