Thom Hogan: Seven Reasons Why I Shoot With (Nikon) DSLRs

old-pr-pix said:
... while a mirrorless shooter with a best in class EVF won't get that image until 4 msec later. Agreed?

NO I don't agree. The camera mentioned by Thom has an EVF that is refreshing at 54Hz = 18.5ms, so at the very least that is the total lag, but it's probably a little higher (+5ms, the time it takes to go from the sensor to EVF for processing). Refer to my post with the interview with Samsung.

This will produce real world visible lag, most notably when tracking subjects or trying to time your shutter press just right.
 
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j-nord said:
old-pr-pix said:
... while a mirrorless shooter with a best in class EVF won't get that image until 4 msec later. Agreed?

NO I don't agree. The camera mentioned by Thom has an EVF that is refreshing at 54Hz = 18.5ms, so at the very least that is the total lag, but it's probably a little higher (+5ms, the time it takes to go from the sensor to EVF for processing). Refer to my post with the interview with Samsung.

This will produce real world visible lag, most notably when tracking subjects or trying to time your shutter press just right.

I used Thom's claimed 1/250 sec delay... feel free to change it to 18.5 ms, or 23.5 ms... it is still way less than the other delays in the system. And, the EVF delay is consistent compared to other lags. Human perceptual lag varies based on lots of factors. Shutter lag varies based on the complexity of the auto exposure algorithm being used (matrix v. spot), whether AF is involved, etc. I can much more easily compensate for the minor EVF delay than lag due to AF hunting. And, to consistently time a shot to within 1 ms without some sophisticated, non-human controller is unrealistic. That's all I'm saying.
 
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Most GM and Ford cars sold here in Europe have never been even close to the United States. The 'Chevrolet' I checked up was made by Daewoo in South Corea (it was stamped on the engine block) and my daughter's Ford SUV comes from Germany.


BTW Japanese carmakers are now introducing mirrorless cars. Let's see how they handle real life situations.
 
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old-pr-pix said:
j-nord said:
old-pr-pix said:
... while a mirrorless shooter with a best in class EVF won't get that image until 4 msec later. Agreed?

NO I don't agree. The camera mentioned by Thom has an EVF that is refreshing at 54Hz = 18.5ms, so at the very least that is the total lag, but it's probably a little higher (+5ms, the time it takes to go from the sensor to EVF for processing). Refer to my post with the interview with Samsung.

This will produce real world visible lag, most notably when tracking subjects or trying to time your shutter press just right.

I used Thom's claimed 1/250 sec delay... feel free to change it to 18.5 ms, or 23.5 ms... it is still way less than the other delays in the system. And, the EVF delay is consistent compared to other lags. Human perceptual lag varies based on lots of factors. Shutter lag varies based on the complexity of the auto exposure algorithm being used (matrix v. spot), whether AF is involved, etc. I can much more easily compensate for the minor EVF delay than lag due to AF hunting. And, to consistently time a shot to within 1 ms without some sophisticated, non-human controller is unrealistic. That's all I'm saying.

Absolutely true about the importance of a consistent lag. That's why, for example, on the 1D X you can choose to have a shorter shutter lag of down to 36 ms, but it will be variable between 36–55 ms based on aperture setting, etc.; the default setting is a standard 55 ms.
 
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j-nord said:
bp said:
Wow Thom. That's a whole lot of typing. TL:DR = "this still just works better for me". Cool, ok. The entire article could've been 3 sentences, maybe toss in a bullet list if you're feeling randy

The length seems appropriate for the format > blog post. However, the giant font makes it hard to read quickly.

Giant font? What happened to Ctrl + Mouse Wheel to shrink it? Problem solved! :D

- A
 
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pj1974 said:
I have followed this thread. Will keep my contribution here relatively pointed.

Firstly, ‘back in the day’ (up to 20 years ago) I read everything I could find online from Thom about digital imagery. These days I continue to read widely, but spend more time taking photos, enjoying them and undertaking other pursuits in life. I’m glad Thom came online and contributed in this CR discussion, I found it helpful he used that opportunity to clarify and add some useful information.

Secondly, while there is, and has been – a lot of rather heated debates online here about sensor types and brands, mirrorless vs DSLRs, etc – particularly between certain members, I would encourage everyone to keep it civil and choose which battles to fight (or rather, choose which battles not to fight). Even if some contributors may not back up their statements with facts (or ignore evidence as presented by others, whether according to own perception or reality), please folks - ‘take the higher road’. Choose humility and let the heated discussions die down with a polite ‘ok, that’s all I’m going to say on [insert topic of dissention here]’.

Now to the point, my thoughts on camera format, and in particularly mirrorless in the future. I actually believe the mirrorless interchangeable lens camera (MILC) format will in some years’ time be the preferred format for most enthusiast photographers around the world. How long that timeframe will be, is still anyone’s guess (though some will be more accurate than others). I am middle aged, and I certainly hope mirrorless will happen long before I reach my 60’s! [As an aside, if I have the capability, I hope to continue pursuing photography as a hobby during my retirement, but certainly not being the sole thing I do].

I currently own a 7D and a good old trusty 350D. I used many other cameras, from 1DsIII to 700Ds and several Nikon DSLRs (including the D800).
I also have used some mirrorless cameras (Sony A6000, a few Fujis, an Olympus on the odd occasion too, etc). I shoot a mix of photography – mainly ‘nature’ (from landscapes, to wildlife to macro), but I also take thousands of photos a year in other genres, including ‘event’ (church, public events, ‘occasions’), a bit of outdoor sports, stock photo/still life, etc. I rarely take videos, and prefer photography as a hobby and in general to view, though there are still many amazing videos people take which I appreciate.

Mirrorless technology has in recent years been improving rapidly. How mirrorless may benefit one’s photography does depend a lot on the type and style of an individual’s photography. I have used the Canon 80D in recent months, and the DPAF is really good. No doubt it can be improved, but it is already impressive. The speed, accuracy and reliability of DPAF is good (for both photograph and videography). I hope that Canon has a few tricks up its sleeves in obtaining even more benefits from DPAF. Sony has created some amazing on-sensor AF hardware and software algorithms also.

While I would often appreciate a lighter (& sometimes somewhat smaller) camera package, I have yet to find a mirrorless (MILC) camera that I really love to hold and view, in anywhere near the same range as (my) Canon DSLRs. Weight wise, a 400 gram camera body helps me with balance (lens dependent of course, with lenses… generally the smaller and lighter the better). My ideal camera size is part-way between the 80D and 7D. The smaller and often ‘slippery’ (i.e. poor / no substantial grip) feeling of most MILCs leaves me with a much less satisfied shooting experience ergonomically.

The potential mirrorless advantages of wider ranging shutter speeds (at both extremes), perfect ‘autofocus’ on sensor (no need for AFMA), (almost) perfectly quiet operation, etc are particularly attractive to me. While some cameras have achieved (some of) these criteria already, no doubt maturity and improvements can still be made. I look forward to technology continuing to advance – with us, the consumers being the end beneficiaries.

Earlier today I was contemplating whether my next camera body will be a DSLR, or a MILC. I currently own lenses from the Sigma 8-16mm to the Canon 70-300mm L. My ‘all purpose’ lens is Canon’s 15-85mm IS USM. I also have a 18-135mm IS STM. (Yes, Canon, I’m wanting a 15-135mm… lol). I own a few primes also. If Canon can come out with a ‘pro’ MILC with somewhat the features of a 80D to 5D still, I would be very tempted. While not a ‘requirement’ – if I could use my existing EF/EF-S lenses, that would be great – though I’d potentially be prepared to purchase lenses in a new lens format if required – i.e. if the system really ‘worked’ well.

Battery life does matter to me, though I am also prepared to take along up to 4 batteries if required. I regularly shoot around several hundred to over 2000 in one outing or occasion. Battery technology has also seen significant upgrades within the past 15 years or so, but I expect we’ll see more advances in battery technology too (electric car J-curve comes to mind).

I believe within a decade the ‘photography market’ will have two main segments, ‘main’, but not exclusive. Smart phones (which have already seen the large demise of point-and-shoot cameras) – and MILC. Smart phone images are good enough for many people for ‘snapshots / memory-moments’ and social-media sharing. Mobiles go everywhere with most smart-phone users, and are (usually) small enough to keep in a pocket / tuck into a (tiny) bag / satchel, etc. Mirrorless cameras may replace the ‘camera body of choice’ for many current DSLR owners, and photo enthusiasts within the upcoming millennial-generation who will have (more of their) own purchasing power soon. Mirrorless cameras with 1” ™ and larger sensors for those who require limited depth of field, improved low light capability and generally higher IQ, etc.

We live in exciting times. My Canon 350D was a highly useful bit of photography gear when I purchased it in 2005. My 7D has superseded it by a comfortable margin, and remains very capable for most of my needs. But I expect one day I will own a mirrorless camera that far eclipses anything my 7D can do now. EVFs will hopefully improve. I do use Live View regularly (e.g. for macro, night-time shooting in low light etc). Yes, I really find how the screen ‘gains’ light at night, and with my 10 stop ND filter is really helpful.

Best wishes and peace to all.

Paul 8)

So why did you keep the 350 and not the 700Ds?
 
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Don't all these things require answers _before_ you can even conceive of going out and making a decent image?

:) :) :) :)

ahsanford said:
I predict this thread will be besieged with the following terms / statements in the next few hours:

Battery Life
Mirrorslappers
All Canon needs to do in mirrorless is...
Canon is falling further behind
Mirrorless is about being small and light
Mirrorless is not at all about being small and light

:P
 
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By extension ->

Canon and Nikon are the home grown "big camera makers" around the world that built "great cameras" for many many years.

Which two companies will soon fill out the top three "camera" sellers? Apple and Google Android, selling smaller cameras connected directly to the network and social media.

;) ;)

dilbert said:
Ford & GM are the home grown "big car makers" in the USA that built "American cars" for many many years.

Which two companies now fill out the top three car sellers? Toyota & Honda, selling smaller cars.
 
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AvTvM said:
hwoarang5 said:
wait who's thom hogan again? ???

an old Nikon mirrorslapper fanboi who is *not* paid by Nikon but achieves a good part of his income by writing *about* every latest incremental iteration of every boring "new" Nikon mirrorslappers ... ;)

Or maybe he is someone who thinks Nikon gear is the best for his needs and Nikon identify him as someone who could help sales, and if Nikon stopped supporting him he would still shoot with Nikon gear.

I don't understand how that negates anything he wrote in his article.
 
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Hi Halfniak.
I would imagine the differentiator here is the use of the terms "own" and "used." I would imagine that means the cameras were company or borrowed or rented rather than owned.
Of course it could just be that there was more emotional attachment to his first dslr.
Or by the time he had to choose between selling the either the 350D or 700D there was not enough residual value to the earlier camera to support an upgrade, this is what usually happens to me.
Following an unexpected shutter death whilst on holiday I resolved never to be without a backup hence I kept my 300D until I wanted to upgrade my 40D, 300D value <£100, camera had more value as a time lapse shutter sacrifice so I kept it, it is still going and gets loaned to my nieces to use without fear of financial ruin!

More on topic.
Angela had an EOS M that we bought for her to use as she wanted better control than is offered by a phone, had to be a Canon MILC to take advantage of my lens collection. After a couple of days where just walking on the seafront on a summer day made picture taking impossible (live view reflection) it was decided that a viewfinder was required. So we looked at an M3 plus add on evf vs an SL1 / 100D, the M3 with evf was about 20% smaller than the SL1 / 100D (not sufficiently smaller enough to not need a small camera bag) and about 25% dearer, enough to sway the decision.
We are both happy with the SL1 / 100D as I can help with menus and controls as they are very similar to my cameras and Angela is already having better results for her effort, she can also track moving targets that were much more difficult on the M due to lag. Plus I'm not likely to try to "borrow" it as I find it too small to hold comfortably, it causes cramp from screwing my hand up so small on the grip.

Cheers, Graham.

Halfniak said:
pj1974 said:
I currently own a 7D and a good old trusty 350D. I used many other cameras, from 1DsIII to 700Ds and several Nikon DSLRs (including the D800).
I also have used some mirrorless cameras (Sony A6000, a few Fujis, an Olympus on the odd occasion too, etc).

Best wishes and peace to all.

Paul 8)

So why did you keep the 350 and not the 700Ds?
 
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