Two More 5D Cameras Coming? [CR1]

[3kramd5]

They really expect people to buy 3 or 4 different camera models now?

I doubt that's in their strategy. If it is, they would be well advised to re-staff that population of their executive wing.

Rather, I think they're trying to build more configurations with much the same constituent parts in order to offer a wider product line and many land more customers, as opposed to the same number of customers buying multiple varieties. Whether it works, time will tell.

Regardless, it's a bit silly to "get sick of canon." Who really cares what a company does? If they offer products you want, buy them. If they don't, don't. It's pretty simple.

Meanwhile, I have a Sony A7R that's 36 megapixels, and the IQ destroys 5d mark iii.

I too have both of those cameras. I don't think the Sony to be so significantly better than when I take a picture with it some sort of torpedo shoots out and immolates my 5D3. There are situations where it can be a little better, and it gives me a little more margin for error on exposure, but the advantages of the 5D are such that I use the A7R sparingly. YMMV.

 

[M_S]

As I said in the other thread: I was hoping that they do it right this time. And with right I mean resolution on par with the 810 (both have less now), way better DR (seems ok), 4K with 60fps (just for one of the cameras with the lowest pixelcount), 12fps for stills (ok), and above all: IN ONE BODY!
But instead they seem to split up the line...again...and do it worse and confusing. It is still a rumour, but this is not good. If that would be true, I will definitly look elsewhere for my 5d Mark III replacement camera. Downgrade to APS-C Samsung NX1, FF Nikons or Sonys come to mind.

 

[joejohnbear]

5D3 is $2500. D750 was $2300 until just a few days ago (price slashed by $300). Before then, there wasn't that much of a difference, and that's why I didn't pick one up as a backup body (and I'd have to buy more lenses on top of that).

I never compare the D750 to the 5D3. Apples and oranges in their respective FF tiers.

But consider the value proposition of a D750 over a D610. Previously (Sep 2014), there was a chasm between the D610 at $1900 and the D810 at $3000. People who wanted just one killer better something (burst, buffer, AF, etc.) were staring at a "Sure, you can get that... for another $1,100" proposition. It's not unlike 6D vs. 5D3 when the 6D was first offered. The 6D is a fine camera, but some niceties were reserved for a 5D3 rig that was some $1400 more expensive.

What did Nikon do? They made the following sales pitch to its customers: "Hey gang, want 2/3 of what's in the D810 for only $400 more than the D610? Sure you do. C'mere."

I don't know the exact recipe of of the low and the high features that made the D750, but if memory serves, they reserved the top end MP count and 1/8000 shutter for the D810, but the D750 got a ton of the top end features, including the AF system and only 0.5 fps slower max burst. That's a strong value proposition, and people have taken them up on it.

So joejohnbear, I'm not advocating the D750 is a better camera than the 5D3 -- that depends on what you shoot. But I am arguing that Canon might want a rethink on splitting their market into [low MP / great low light] + [all-around solid] + [high MP / poor low light]. Perhaps it should be [good] + [better] + [best].

- A

I just compared them because of the value / price proposition. I actually hate the way Nikon is segmented. They're same mp, three different mid-mp bodies with consumer controls and segmentation (no af-on button, 1/4000 shutter, sd card only, etc), two low-mp bodies in either super expensive full size body or super expensive retro, and one large megapixel, poorish low-light. The D810 is probably the best all-around camera balancing megapixels and low-light compared to the 5DSR, but you're stuck at 36 megapixels as their sRAW is more inefficient at saving space on a card.

 

[LonelyBoy]

So, does 5Dc have an FF sensor or Super-35 size?

If it's FF, I'd love to see an 18MP super-sensor in the 6D II <grin>

The Super 35 size is much smaller the a ff sensor at 24.89 mm × 18.66 mm, around half the size. Why would you want that in a 6D MkII?

I think by "super sensor" he meant the high-DR sensor, not a super-35. Hence why asking if the high-DR sensor in the rumored 5Dc was to be FF.

 

[Masa@CanonRMRs]

I, for one, would love to buy 5D Mark IV just for the "Anti-Flicker" alone because I shoot many boys/girls Karate and Volleyball games.
Even though I already have 7D Mark II which has Anti-Flicker, I really want a Full-Size sensor camera like 5D Mark III with Anti-Flicker so I can use high-ISO without noises.
Personally, I can't wait 5D Mark IV.

Even then,

I don't think Mark IV will be released anytime soon.
Mark III is highly complete and still top-of-the-line middle class Full-Size camera. People still buy it after three years since it's original release.

Plus, 5Ds/R is coming. If I'm the president of Canon, I would not release Mark IV while people still talking about 5Ds/R.

Next year is the Olympic year. I'm sure Canon will put 1DX Mark II on the market.
Maybe after that, the 5D Mark IV will come.

Don't get me wrong, I really want 5D Mark IV! lol


May the EOS be with you.

 

[kirbyzhou]

disappointment, still missing WiFi

 

[cayenne]

disappointment, still missing WiFi

You know, I work in the IT industry...and I'm firmly of the mind that not everything needs to be connected to the internet.<P>
With the lack of security on most consumer and even prosumer level products, I'd just as soon not have something out that is just asking to be hacked by some script kiddie.<P>
Talk about something ruining your day, you get out..shoot and some kid on a cellphone borks your entire camera or erases your cards. Fun, eh?

 

[gsealy]

I mentioned 4k cry babies because everybody wants the latest hottest gear or hardware yet 9/10 people can't see the difference in 1080p-4K video all they notice is a price difference.

The difference is trivial to spot! If you can't see then you are maybe far-sighted? Sit 30' away from your screens?

Do any of u who want 4k have the TV/lcd

Personally, yes and more and more do in general. Plus, even if you don;t know, everything you capture now will look much better when you do get one in the future. Plus it can be used to produce super-duper quality 1080p. Be used to help stabilize 1080p fruther in post. Be used for panning and re-cropping post. A true 2x TC effect for distant wildlife footage when put back to 1080p. etc.

or etc or the hard drive space too store/play these massive files??

They are hardly that large and they are actually very small compared the actually giant files that those using ML RAW have to deal with.

I'm aware YouTube now supports 4k but whey are the legit uses and advantages of it??

Looks far better??? Instead of looking like something captured it starts getting more that you are really looking at something look to it. It's particular nice for nature and landscape videography.

I actually like 4k video, and I do like 2k downscaled or clean video from the C100/C300 cameras instead of from Canon DSLR. However, 4k video doesn't play very smoothly on my Intel Iris 5100 over Youtube on state of the art corporate internet, so I agree with others that it not everyone can see it. I do agree with you that future proofing is great like shooting 70mm film in the 60's and restoring it in 2015. However, I don't see a problem with it being out of reach of consumer cameras in the $500 dollar range. I think it'll get there when it gets there in the 5DIV, and if not by then, there are tons of options from the A6000 and C100 with reduced rolling shutter.

I don't however for a second think that amateur photographers who are just dicking around with video trying to capture their kids with their DSLR's know what they're getting themselves into. DSLR's for video were a pleasant mistake, and rolling shutter will always be a problem. Better that people get dedicated camcorders instead of fussing around with XLR adapters and magic lantern. The ones who can compromise understand reality, the ones who complain do so without fully understanding that professionals live within the constraints of technology. I love the A6000 and A7S image quality, hate their ergonomics and would rather go with a FS700 or C100 or C300 any day of the week. If you can't afford it, consider a different hobby or going with a cheaper or alternative camera and that you will need to spend more dollars to bring a still photo DSLR or ILC up to feature parity with a dedicated video camera (GH4, LX100, A6000, A7S etc require external video recorders, audio recorders, variable ND filters or ND filter sets, external monitors, etc etc. In addition, video has separate expenses, like lavalier mics, fluid monopods, fluid heads, leveling tripods, cranes, stabilizers, sliders, scrims, continuous lights, so I don't get the sudden confusion from consumers thinking that it's unfair that Canon separated their DSLR and cinema lineups. At $5000 for the original C100, yes, complain, but $3000 for the reduced price, if you're actually serious about video and want to keep your lenses, get the C100. If your budget is low, get the GH4 or the A6000 and and make do with purchasing additional audio recorders and syncing sound.

Some good thoughts here. My perspective is that 4K is really great and it does have some advantages as pointed out above. But in reality the 'must have' public demand is not there yet and the infrastructure is not there yet (bandwidth and so on). People who work in video see the differences, but most people do not or don't care. They have not been exposed to it very much. We know that it WILL happen, but it hasn't happened yet.

At the same time, the technology to support 4K is changing fast. We see new products every few weeks. And the price points are changing fast too. We see a Canon C300 come out at about $15K and the next week we see a BlackMagic URSA mini come out at $5K. There are DSLR alternatives too.

So given the 4K is not an absolute must yet in terms of public demand, and given that technology and associated prices are changing so fast, then why should I invest in it right now? My answer is to not spend one penny on it. I am going to continue to monitor the technology developments as they come about. I am going to read the reviews. Probably in the next 24 months or so things will begin to settle down. At some point 4K video will be as common place and as cheap as HD is now. I won't wait that long, but for now what I produce with HD is perfectly fine and best yet, it is paid for.

 

[gsealy]

It is going to be so nice to just buy a 5D mkIII near the end of summer. Bargain price and awesome stills capability. I'll be happy. Then I can just focus on glass... which is more important to me. While it is going to be fun watching what new bodies Canon creates over the next 5 years... I will be at peace. I hope. *slight twitching ensues*

IMO this is an excellent strategy. The 5DIII is a great camera. At the same time, spending money on lens is a good idea. A great lens makes every camera that you have better. They also survive the cameras that come and go.

 

[ahsanford]

Even then,

I don't think Mark IV will be released anytime soon.
Mark III is highly complete and still top-of-the-line middle class Full-Size camera. People still buy it after three years since it's original release.

Plus, 5Ds/R is coming. If I'm the president of Canon, I would not release Mark IV while people still talking about 5Ds/R.

Next year is the Olympic year. I'm sure Canon will put 1DX Mark II on the market.
Maybe after that, the 5D Mark IV will come.

Absolutely agree. The 5Ds rigs' place at the top of the 5D pecking order needs to be protected to maintain that high asking price. (Personally, I think that maintaining that price is more a matter of how long Canon holds a 50 - 36 MP leading position over SoNikon than if a 5D4 is competing against it, but hey.)

The 5D4 will not be out for some time, next year at the soonest. I think we'll see the next 1D body or bodies (if they split that unifying 'X' line into speed and detail versions like they had before) before we see the 5D4.

- A

 

[RGF]

Meanwhile, I have a Sony A7R that's 36 megapixels, and the IQ destroys 5d mark iii. Granted, I cannot use the A7R for action shots and overall the A7R is a terrible "operating camera" but it puts out remarkable IQ.

GRRRRR

I would like to see a A7R II or perhaps Magic Lantern rewrite the firmware. Then the camera would be a winner

 

[3kramd5]

A curious thought:

OK so say reading dual-gain takes 2x the processing so they can do 18MP dual at 12fps or 28-32MP at 12fps old style. First, is 6fps that bad if could mean getting a touch better than Exmor DR? The 12fps and less DR could've been left for 1DX2.

Not to me. 6FPS is perfectly acceptable, and that's a trade I'd make in a second.

That's basically how I'm hoping it plays out:

the more I look at it the more it seems perhaps fully dependent on DPAF. Shame it wasn't on the 5DSR.

I'm not so sure. I doubt they're reading the whole sensor twice from half of each pixel. Granted I'm not an expert, but that would seem to cut FWC in half, and at best get you back to square one when the readouts are merged.

Even if it's a DPAF platform, I imagine they still sum the two diodes to read out total pixel charge, and have the circuitry in place to send it down parallel signal chains of varying gain.

It's likely very processor heavy. Doing it with 50MP might mean something like 2 FPS in the 5DS/R configuration.

Perhaps we'll see a 5D4 at mid-range resolution (22+/-) and a 1DXSR (because why not?) at high resolution (50), but doing dual readout RAW HDR blends, and both with framerates similar to the 5DS/R.

Of course the rumor might be pure BS and then all this is whatever.

Yup.

 

[ahsanford]

I just compared them because of the value / price proposition. I actually hate the way Nikon is segmented. They're same mp, three different mid-mp bodies with consumer controls and segmentation (no af-on button, 1/4000 shutter, sd card only, etc), two low-mp bodies in either super expensive full size body or super expensive retro, and one large megapixel, poorish low-light. The D810 is probably the best all-around camera balancing megapixels and low-light compared to the 5DSR, but you're stuck at 36 megapixels as their sRAW is more inefficient at saving space on a card.

Understood. It took me a bit to understand your three 'same [24] MP' comment. I don't even consider the Nikon Df part of their ongoing FF line of products. I see that as a retro/hipster/style sidebar of a product line. I actually love the idea a throwback control scheme to court stubborn lifelong film shooters to join the digital fold, but I simply cannot get behind photography products whose #1 selling/marketing point is that the product "looks nice". So I personally disregard that thing when I talk about Nikon FF.

I think if you zoom in on the D610 vs. D750 vs. D810, there's a little more going on there. I see three pretty clearly arranged price points, and I think Nikon's on to something there.

The only thing I don't get is why didn't Nikon 'pull a Sony'? Why isn't the D750 a dead-on D810 clone but with the 24 MP sensor? Why nerf the D750's max shutter speed or not offer a dedicated AF-on button when the resolution alone should be enough to justify the D810's markup?

- A

 

[Takingshots]

I hope Canon HQ is reading on those disgruntled Canon owners on their requests for improvements in this forum. The early indicator on the new line of camera 5Ds on how well they sell in the first quarter would be very important as they relates to market demand. Revenues speak volume. Special discount on L lenses is good marketing tool but new innovative camera is just as important; must perform better than the competitors. Waiting for more reviews or any new releases before year end.

 

[ahsanford]

I hope Canon HQ is reading on those disgruntled Canon owners on their requests for improvements in this forum. The early indicator on the new line of camera 5Ds on how well they sell in the first quarter would be very important as they relates to market demand. Revenues speak volume. Special discount on L lenses is good marketing tool but new innovative camera is just as important; must perform better than the competitors. Waiting for more reviews or any new releases before year end.

Agree on many points there. Keep in mind that 5Ds sales simply have to be high right out the gate -- there's been a pent up demand for a high MP rig for a few years now. The same thing went with the 100-400L II -- they waited so long to put it out that a large windfall of immediate sales were just sitting there.

The real test of the 5Ds will come after that first bolus comes out and after reviewers -- specifically sensor nerds -- have their go at it. Because, let's face it, the only risk Canon has in that camera is the sensor itself. So much else of that camera has been done before, so it should work well (and I imagine it will). I would be stunned if there was an implementation problem, light leak, peeling grip material, lens AF incompatibility, etc. with such an (other than the sensor) small design change.

Sorry for the ramble here, but I see maybe three potential outcomes based on sensor reviews:

• If it tanks in DR or if noise is even worse than the 7D2, sales will suffer after that initial big sales number. The camera will be relegated to a small subset of studio and landscape guys who must have high detail and can leave the camera in very low ISO. Price will quickly drop for this rig and Canon will have learned its lesson about robbing Peter (high ISO) to pay Paul (pixels).
  
  
• If it's similar in DR to the 5D3 and is only (let's say) 1 stop behind the 5D3 in low light, this camera will appeal to users outside of studio and tripod use. It will be more of a general use camera and it should maintain its price a bit longer. Many, many threads will start on this forum with the title of "What do I want more? The 5Ds or the 5D3?"
  
  
  
• If, somehow, this lens outperforms expectations on DR and high ISO, like if DR is significantly improved over the 5D3 and the noise is on par with it, Canon has a longer-term winner on their hands that will cause problems for their rivals.

I just can't see the third one happening with Maeda-san's comments about 7D2 pixel-level quality. My expectations of the sensor (other than the detail, of course) are pretty low.

- A

 

[pedro]

• If it tanks in DR or if noise is even worse than the 7D2, sales will suffer after that initial big sales number. The camera will be relegated to a small subset of studio and landscape guys who must have high detail and can leave the camera in very low ISO. Price will quickly drop for this rig and Canon will have learned its lesson about robbing Peter (high ISO) to pay Paul (pixels).
  

• 
  Well said ;-) My first name is Peter and I'm all for high ISO!

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

I don't think Mark IV will be released anytime soon.
Mark III is highly complete and still top-of-the-line middle class Full-Size camera. People still buy it after three years since it's original release.

5D3 is fine. But it's not top of the line middle class FF. Other than for the RAW video option thanks to ML, it really doesn't match to a D810 or D750.

Plus, 5Ds/R is coming. If I'm the president of Canon, I would not release Mark IV while people still talking about 5Ds/R.

And 5Ds looks too many worse than a D810, nothing about it is better other than for 14 extra MP and I'd bet a 50MP Nikon arrives within six months and does everything better.

Don't get me wrong, I really want 5D Mark IV! lol

Which just disproves everything you wrote before! ;D
People do want it now.

 

[joejohnbear]

The only thing I don't get is why didn't Nikon 'pull a Sony'? Why isn't the D750 a dead-on D810 clone but with the 24 MP sensor? Why nerf the D750's max shutter speed or not offer a dedicated AF-on button when the resolution alone should be enough to justify the D810's markup?

- A

Totally agree with you there. I still own a D700. I am in the camp that gets the most furious about that decision. There is absolutely almost no reason for me to own a Canon body if it weren't for that decision THREE freaking years ago (D600 and D800, now D750).

 

[Diko]

The pissing contest continues regarding the megapixel BS !
Billboards were made on 4 megapixel cameras back in the day and nobody cared... Sure the files are wayyyy better the color etc... do we need 50 megapixels ? the answer is NO ! What we need is cameras to sync at 8000th of a second ! We do not care about programs or even the meter, professionals use only manual and use a hand held meter, I wish canon made a model that had some 20 something megapixels, 10 frames a second, sync at at least 2500th of a second and it had one mode MANUAL ! Forget TTL and all that crap ! Hey Canon how about a camera much like a Hasselblad 501 for the ones that are actually making images not taking them ?

I use only manual mode on my camera and I tell you, there is such camera as desired from you for a long time already.... what are you complaining from?

 

[DominoDude]

disappointment, still missing WiFi

You know, I work in the IT industry...and I'm firmly of the mind that not everything needs to be connected to the internet.<P>
... Snip! ...

Halleluja +1 !