Update on the Canon USA vs Grey Market Retailers Legal Action

[Loswr]

There's a reply on photography bay that says:

I think global prices should be much more equal (without taxes)...

The cost of the physical product is only one expense. Without having access to their books it is impossible to know how much of the price differential can be traced to differences in regional costs. Canon Europe has to pay local labor, advertising, distribution, repair, local taxes on their facilities, rent or purchase cost for those facilities, etc. etc. etc. Higher prices in Europe may, to some degree, reflect higher expenses.

To that point, warranties are longer by law in the EU, meaning a higher average service cost. Also, it's worth noting that vendor pricing in the EU includes taxes (VAT), whereas US list prices do not include sales taxes.

 

[jeffa4444]

Its difficult to cry for companies like Canon even though I love their products. When it suits them they can offer sometimes huge discounts for instance this past weekend one official UK dealer was selling the Canon 7DMKII with a free Canon Pixma Pro 100 and the mail in rebate (so was B&H). These types of rebate show just how much margin they are playing with.
Apple in particular are masters at hiding behind "local taxes" to inflate prices even if you strip out VAT and "overhead variance" its easy to see Apple inflate prices in the UK compared to the US but at least Apple keep a WW waranty Canon its not so clear.

 

[tron]

If Canon were to spend as much attention and resources on improving their sensor tech as they are on litigious action, they would sell many more cameras with better sensors and IQ than any competitor ... and make much more money than by going after a few direct importers.

+1000000000

 

[tr573]

As far as I have understood, Canon is perfectly capable of running its business and taking care of their part of the deal. If consumers get products at better prices despite the game they play, I see nothing wrong with it.
We take care of our money, they take care of theirs. Should we the consumers start defending the rights of a huge international company? Even the thought of it makes me chuckle...

It's such a hilariously american thing to do (defending the rights of gigantic companies) , like Canon cares one iota about you and your budget.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

There's a reply on photography bay that says:

I think global prices should be much more equal (without taxes) and local government’s should do more to tax imports in such a way so there’s no gain in buying gray imports. This is a fair way for everyone to be on an even playing field.

Indeed. Canon USA has created this problem with the introduction of MAP but also, Canon has this problem globally because (for example) cameras are cheaper in the USA than in the UK.

Governments should stay out of this type of squabble. Why should a government protect a company from itself? What you are basically suggesting is the same as a fixed world wide currency, but its not likely to happen. Just look at the issues in Greece.

Canon can fix the issue without any help from the government by merely adjusting prices. They can raise prices where they have artificially lowered prices, expecting other parts of the world to support sales to those countries.

Prices are higher in the USA than in many parts of the world, that's why the issue exists. Prices are even higher in the UK, which is why so many are able to import grey market cameras from Hong Kong.

 

[Mikehit]

It's such a hilariously american thing to do (defending the rights of gigantic companies) , like Canon cares one iota about you and your budget.

I didn't see martii defending anything - he simply stated a fact that Canon can take care of their own affairs. Too many people confuse a desire to understand as being the same as sympathy or (worse) complicity.
Companies charge what customers will pay - pure and simple. What amazes me is people who complain about the price of a luxury item and still pay for it. If people did what their common sense told them to do (i.e. not buy it) that is what the companies care about and the price would soon drop to its natural level.

 

[grainier]

really you want to pay more? I do all my buying at a brick and mortar store yes Dilbert full retail plus a 7% tax I could cross state line to newhamshire and pay zero tax but how dose that help my state with its taxes? in the uk you got a higher price plus vat its not the same

Some would say you can help your state (MA I assume) by voting for politicians not quite so eager to tax and spend.

 

[grainier]

I do not know which idea is more idiotic.
Raise the taxes to match.
Or raise the prices to all be the same so people pay more.

Both stink of communism.

 

[Luds34]

I read somewhere that Bigvalue/Getitdigital all buy from adorama/BHphotovideo etc and that is the reason they are coming w/ USA warranty cards.... They buy so much they get deep discounts and then they split the kits up and sell the lens separate and the camera body separate.

Really if they are not authorized dealers then how can Canon even go after them?

Also... thats a ton of money in that warehouse eek.

Yep, the three camera body only purchases I've done from BVI, etc. have all been kits where they separated out the lens. However, all of mine were clearly imports. So while I don't doubt they pick up legit USA models in bulk from time to time, I'm guessing a majority of their product is imported.

 

[Mikehit]

Prices are higher in the USA than in many parts of the world, that's why the issue exists. Prices are even higher in the UK, which is why so many are able to import grey market cameras from Hong Kong.

Actually many electronic goods are pretty comparable in US and UK because of the impact of internet buying:
5D3 - Amazon US = 2,500 USD (price without tax)
Amazon UK = 2,000 GBP = 1,667 GBP before tax
2,500 USD on today's exchange rate is 1,670 GBP.

Price in Hong Kong 18,300 HKD = 1,600 GBP
So define 'higher'

FWIW, there is a whole load of internet buying between states in the US precisely because of the differences in local taxes.

 

[Loswr]

FWIW, there is a whole load of internet buying between states in the US precisely because of the differences in local taxes.

Of course, most states have a Sales and Use Tax, which means while out of state sellers are not obligated to collect tax on behalf of the buyer and remit it to the buyer's resident state, buyers are themselves legally obligated to pay taxes to their state on purchases made from out of state sellers that are intended for use in the buyer's home state.

 

[tr573]

It's such a hilariously american thing to do (defending the rights of gigantic companies) , like Canon cares one iota about you and your budget.

I didn't see martii defending anything - he simply stated a fact that Canon can take care of their own affairs. Too many people confuse a desire to understand as being the same as sympathy or (worse) complicity.
Companies charge what customers will pay - pure and simple. What amazes me is people who complain about the price of a luxury item and still pay for it. If people did what their common sense told them to do (i.e. not buy it) that is what the companies care about and the price would soon drop to its natural level.

I was agreeing with Martii - not disagreeing. There are many out there commenting on the articles about this situation about how we are driving poor Canon USA out of business with our shady gray market purchasing.

Canon has an objective in the game - maximize shareholder revenue
Governments have an objective in the game - maximize tax revenue
I have an objective in the game - minimize my outlay

Not everyone can win, but I'm sure as hell not going to play for the other team.

 

[Khufu]

Prices are higher in the USA than in many parts of the world, that's why the issue exists. Prices are even higher in the UK, which is why so many are able to import grey market cameras from Hong Kong.

Actually many electronic goods are pretty comparable in US and UK because of the impact of internet buying:
5D3 - Amazon US = 2,500 USD (price without tax)
Amazon UK = 2,000 GBP = 1,667 GBP before tax
2,500 USD on today's exchange rate is 1,670 GBP.

Price in Hong Kong 18,300 HKD = 1,600 GBP
So define 'higher'

FWIW, there is a whole load of internet buying between states in the US precisely because of the differences in local taxes.

Mmmmnope. I'm reluctant to go name-dropping suppliers incase Canon UK are watching ...but the 5D3 is currently £1443 delivered to my UK door within days from HK.

...or £2000 from Amazon UK (your quote, I've not checked)

Alternatively I can have:
5DSr @ £2013
5DS @ £1928
5D3 w/ f/4L zooms @ £1855 or £1799

I know which my absolute last choice would be!

 

[AvTvM]

+1

Full ack!

Okay, I just want to throw some bits into the mix. Not a direct reply to peoples posts but, first off, a bit of "consumer perspective":

I bought my 5D3 for £1800, not £3400.
The latter was the UK Street Price at the time at 'Jessops', the standard go-to place for photography goods. The former price is what I paid, via bank transfer and avoiding PayPal/Transaction fees. I challenge you all to look at those above figures, do all the mathamaticising you please, and NOT come up with the answer "wtf?"

I don't really see what the debate here is. Corporations like Canon are simply trying to milk the market(s) for every penny they can, as a good Capitalist pimp does. They're in a pissy because globalisation isn't all on their terms, or not just yet, it isn't. They've got scary lawyers and 21st Century Orwellian culture on their side so I'm sure it'll all work out peachy!

What appears to me to be the issue for Canon is simply that the values of various economies and territories aren't on level playing fields and we're all able to peek over the fence much easier now... They'll figure it out; bigger fences, scarier security guards, larger trolls and taxes to cross the bridges, whatever...

But really... £1800 or £3400? Yeah, warranty invalidity threats really kept me up all night on that one.

Ps. No, I don't think taxes come close to being a part of this debate.

 

[kaihp]

Mmmmnope. I'm reluctant to go name-dropping suppliers incase Canon UK are watching ...but the 5D3 is currently £1443 delivered to my UK door within days from HK.

If you go searching on the World Wide Web for PRICEs for COMmodities sold in Hong Kong, you'll find an interesting site.

5D3 can be found for HKD15,900 for official versions (行) and just below HKD15,000 for the grey versions (水).

Just be prepared to load up your friendly translation service and take its output with ... a dumptruck load of salt.

 

[AvTvM]

It's such a hilariously american thing to do (defending the rights of gigantic companies) , like Canon cares one iota about you and your budget.

I didn't see martii defending anything - he simply stated a fact that Canon can take care of their own affairs. Too many people confuse a desire to understand as being the same as sympathy or (worse) complicity.
Companies charge what customers will pay - pure and simple. What amazes me is people who complain about the price of a luxury item and still pay for it. If people did what their common sense told them to do (i.e. not buy it) that is what the companies care about and the price would soon drop to its natural level.

I was agreeing with Martii - not disagreeing. There are many out there commenting on the articles about this situation about how we are driving poor Canon USA out of business with our shady gray market purchasing.

Canon has an objective in the game - maximize shareholder revenue
Governments have an objective in the game - maximize tax revenue
I have an objective in the game - minimize my outlay

Not everyone can win, but I'm sure as hell not going to play for the other team.

Exactly the way I see this, too.

It is obvious who the paid or unpaid Canon pawns are in this forum. The same names jimp up every time anything is posted that is even slightly critical of Canon products and/or business practices. Quite interesting to observe ...

 

[Maximilian]

To make it short:

No one will stop these practices until they also stop free enterprise economy.
Do you prefer another political or economical system?

 

[Deleted member 91053]

If Canon don't like the "Grey Market" then why did they create it? Their (Canon's) differential pricing is the cause of it all.
I am expecting my Grey 7D2 to arrive tomorrow, UK retailer, UK taxes paid and £400 cheaper than the high street. The ONLY significant variable in the chain is Canon, perhaps they should look closer to home and give our high street retailers a chance with a single unit price wherever it is sent to.

 

[Tugela]

What the heck am I missing here? Wasnt the issue with Canon USA losing money repairing grey market stuff under warranty?

But they do not stop. You bought a Canon product and they stand behind it. Otherwise they get the reputation of not taking care their product. I know of no one that they refused a repair because of grey market, it would be bad business.

What you mention is one of the reason for the law. By controlling the supply chain Canon can control their warranty process as well. They can put a structure in place to protect their reputation by fixing products that need warranty. The grey market suppliers undermine Canon's warranty structure to make a few dollars.

Then that is a choice they make. Canon USA is not obliged to honor warranties of cameras not sold by them. The solution for them should be simple - charge for servicing an out of warranty Canon product. The fact that a camera is out of warranty because the warranty has expired or because it came from another country should not matter - out of warranty is out of warranty. If a customer was defrauded by a retailer who sold them a product under false pretenses, it is the customers problem, not Canons.

 

[beforeEos Camaras]

Some would say you can help your state (MA I assume) by voting for politicians not quite so eager to tax and spend.

well true but on the outer hand I love small shops and if I buy gray market items those tend to close. superstores and online sales are one thing but try and get customer service I love human voices not robocalls or long lines at customer service and treated like how dare you have a issue.