Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List

neuroanatomist said:
Don Haines said:
There is a third possibility...

To do 4K right requires 4 times the computing power as 2K video. That makes a lot of heat and drains batteries fast... and there is a real possibility that the problems with dissipating the heat make it impractical in a DSLR body unless you add in heatsinks, and that is a negative to all those using it for stills. Obviously, a 1D-C has the thermal mass, battery capacity, and radiative surface to handle this, but does a smaller body?

Does the Panasonic GH4 not do 4K right? It certainly doesn't have a large thermal mass or space for big heat sinks inside.

It does not, however it has a considerably more advanced, lower power sensor. Canon is still using huge transistors, and they are not even the more advanced kind of high efficiency multi-gate transistors we're capable of manufacturing today. Canon is really, really, REALLY far behind on sensor tech, and even behind just on general CMOS fabrication.

Yeah, I think a sensor fabricated with an older process using huge transistors IS going to create a lot of heat when operated at a higher speed. So I think Don's comment has a lot of merit.
 
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Khufu said:
I'm not too clued in on this stuff, jrista, but would you classify the latest "new sensor tech" of the 70D as the same kind of old tech with oversized transistors etc relative to the GH4/others or is this an observation of earlier Canon models? Where do I go to get better educated on all this jazz?...
When you make a transistor smaller, it consumes less power and it operates faster.
 
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Don Haines said:
Khufu said:
I'm not too clued in on this stuff, jrista, but would you classify the latest "new sensor tech" of the 70D as the same kind of old tech with oversized transistors etc relative to the GH4/others or is this an observation of earlier Canon models? Where do I go to get better educated on all this jazz?...
When you make a transistor smaller, it consumes less power and it operates faster.
Ha, cheers, Don! I'm feeling thoroughly educated now ;)
Really, though - How'd you find yourself (jrista and whomever else) so informed about the sensor tech and fabrication processes of the different manufacturers? I hear people mention it on these forums all the time but is it as simple as just being in spec sheets somewhere and coming to conclude that the numbers in Panasonic's data are smaller?...
 
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Don Haines said:
Stu_bert said:
Keith at Northlight seems to have got confirmation from a source that the specs are "pretty solid"....
Northlight is famous for poor guesses.... they have been saying it is about to come out for two years, and after the 70D was released, they had solid rumours for the 7D2 that were lower speced than the 70D... Northlight isn't even worth reading for a laugh....

Luckily your posts keep that from happening here
 
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Khufu said:
Don Haines said:
Khufu said:
I'm not too clued in on this stuff, jrista, but would you classify the latest "new sensor tech" of the 70D as the same kind of old tech with oversized transistors etc relative to the GH4/others or is this an observation of earlier Canon models? Where do I go to get better educated on all this jazz?...
When you make a transistor smaller, it consumes less power and it operates faster.
Ha, cheers, Don! I'm feeling thoroughly educated now ;)
Really, though - How'd you find yourself (jrista and whomever else) so informed about the sensor tech and fabrication processes of the different manufacturers? I hear people mention it on these forums all the time but is it as simple as just being in spec sheets somewhere and coming to conclude that the numbers in Panasonic's data are smaller?...
I've been working in an electronics research lab for 35 years.... designed and built my first computer (all wire-wrap) in 1975, have designed IC's, had internet for two years before it was invented, etc etc... One finds out a lot from trade publications... and if you really want to see what's happening in sensors you should see what surveillance systems are capable of! You can get recognizable pictures of someone walking from 24,000 feet!

One of the important things learned over the years was the importance of not saying that something was impossible.... I think that one of the greatest of all technology visionary statements was in 1976 by the engineers at Texas Instruments when they released their 16K by 1 bit memory chip and said "this is it boys, throw away your design tools because this is as dense as memory can possibly be made"... and now I have a 64G micro SD card in my GoPro that is a tenth the size and a million times the capacity and a thousand times faster....
 
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Khufu said:
Don Haines said:
Khufu said:
I'm not too clued in on this stuff, jrista, but would you classify the latest "new sensor tech" of the 70D as the same kind of old tech with oversized transistors etc relative to the GH4/others or is this an observation of earlier Canon models? Where do I go to get better educated on all this jazz?...
When you make a transistor smaller, it consumes less power and it operates faster.
Ha, cheers, Don! I'm feeling thoroughly educated now ;)
Really, though - How'd you find yourself (jrista and whomever else) so informed about the sensor tech and fabrication processes of the different manufacturers? I hear people mention it on these forums all the time but is it as simple as just being in spec sheets somewhere and coming to conclude that the numbers in Panasonic's data are smaller?...
Seriously though, Canon is using old tech for their APS-C and FF sensors. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I seem to recall that the lithography on their sensors is at least twice the size of anyone else's... their P/S sensors are done in a different production line and the lithography is 4 times smaller....

I am hoping that with the downturn in P/S sales, that there will be space on that line to manufacture a new line of larger sensors with finer lithography. If they were to make the leap, the edges around pixels would shrink, thereby improving the sensitivity of their sensors. With finer lithography, there would now be room on the sensor for the A/D circuitry and it could be done to read an entire row or column at a time. This would shorten the analog path and reduce noise. This on-chip A/D could now run far slower that the off-chip A/D, and that also means less noise. The smaller lithography means lower power consumption, and that means less heat, which means less noise and longer battery life. Smaller lithography means that the circuitry is smaller and the electrons have less distance to go... this makes things run faster.

They have to do this at some time. The sooner the better.
 
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Don Haines said:
I've been working in an electronics research lab for 35 years.... designed and built my first computer (all wire-wrap) in 1975, have designed IC's, had internet for two years before it was invented, etc etc... One finds out a lot from trade publications... and if you really want to see what's happening in sensors you should see what surveillance systems are capable of! You can get recognizable pictures of someone walking from 24,000 feet!

Adaptive optics? Because that's the only way I can think of that you could even approach a usable picture at that resolution through that much air.... :)
 
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dgatwood said:
Don Haines said:
I've been working in an electronics research lab for 35 years.... designed and built my first computer (all wire-wrap) in 1975, have designed IC's, had internet for two years before it was invented, etc etc... One finds out a lot from trade publications... and if you really want to see what's happening in sensors you should see what surveillance systems are capable of! You can get recognizable pictures of someone walking from 24,000 feet!

Adaptive optics? Because that's the only way I can think of that you could even approach a usable picture at that resolution through that much air.... :)
That was in the high arctic... much clearer air there and less turbulence. You have to go down to about 4000 feet here in Eastern Ontario...
 
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Don Haines said:
Stu_bert said:
Keith at Northlight seems to have got confirmation from a source that the specs are "pretty solid"....
Northlight is famous for poor guesses.... they have been saying it is about to come out for two years, and after the 70D was released, they had solid rumours for the 7D2 that were lower speced than the 70D... Northlight isn't even worth reading for a laugh....

northlight used to have the best info, some years back, then CR got all the acclaim and far more attention and ten the rumors seemed to fade away
 
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Don Haines said:
Khufu said:
Ha, cheers, Don! I'm feeling thoroughly educated now ;)
Really, though - How'd you find yourself (jrista and whomever else) so informed about the sensor tech and fabrication processes of the different manufacturers? I hear people mention it on these forums all the time but is it as simple as just being in spec sheets somewhere and coming to conclude that the numbers in Panasonic's data are smaller?...
Seriously though, Canon is using old tech for their APS-C and FF sensors. I don't have the numbers in front of me ...

Here are the numbers (scroll down to the second table):
http://www.chipworks.com/en/technical-competitive-analysis/resources/blog/full-frame-dslr-cameras-canon-stays-the-course/
 
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x-vision said:
Don Haines said:
Khufu said:
Ha, cheers, Don! I'm feeling thoroughly educated now ;)
Really, though - How'd you find yourself (jrista and whomever else) so informed about the sensor tech and fabrication processes of the different manufacturers? I hear people mention it on these forums all the time but is it as simple as just being in spec sheets somewhere and coming to conclude that the numbers in Panasonic's data are smaller?...
Seriously though, Canon is using old tech for their APS-C and FF sensors. I don't have the numbers in front of me ...

Here are the numbers (scroll down to the second table):
http://www.chipworks.com/en/technical-competitive-analysis/resources/blog/full-frame-dslr-cameras-canon-stays-the-course/

Two years old... Srsly where do you people get that fact that they don´t use 180nm or even smaller tech for new sensors? I see no hint of this or opposite....
 
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Don Haines said:
Khufu said:
Don Haines said:
Khufu said:
I'm not too clued in on this stuff, jrista, but would you classify the latest "new sensor tech" of the 70D as the same kind of old tech with oversized transistors etc relative to the GH4/others or is this an observation of earlier Canon models? Where do I go to get better educated on all this jazz?...
When you make a transistor smaller, it consumes less power and it operates faster.
Ha, cheers, Don! I'm feeling thoroughly educated now ;)
Really, though - How'd you find yourself (jrista and whomever else) so informed about the sensor tech and fabrication processes of the different manufacturers? I hear people mention it on these forums all the time but is it as simple as just being in spec sheets somewhere and coming to conclude that the numbers in Panasonic's data are smaller?...
Seriously though, Canon is using old tech for their APS-C and FF sensors. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I seem to recall that the lithography on their sensors is at least twice the size of anyone else's... their P/S sensors are done in a different production line and the lithography is 4 times smaller....

actually no one has a clue what they are using on the 70D.

and everyone uses "old tech" on their full frame sensors - the latest and greatest sony's are rolling at 180nm.
 
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jrista said:
neuroanatomist said:
Don Haines said:
There is a third possibility...

To do 4K right requires 4 times the computing power as 2K video. That makes a lot of heat and drains batteries fast... and there is a real possibility that the problems with dissipating the heat make it impractical in a DSLR body unless you add in heatsinks, and that is a negative to all those using it for stills. Obviously, a 1D-C has the thermal mass, battery capacity, and radiative surface to handle this, but does a smaller body?

Does the Panasonic GH4 not do 4K right? It certainly doesn't have a large thermal mass or space for big heat sinks inside.

It does not, however it has a considerably more advanced, lower power sensor. Canon is still using huge transistors, and they are not even the more advanced kind of high efficiency multi-gate transistors we're capable of manufacturing today. Canon is really, really, REALLY far behind on sensor tech, and even behind just on general CMOS fabrication.

Yeah, I think a sensor fabricated with an older process using huge transistors IS going to create a lot of heat when operated at a higher speed. So I think Don's comment has a lot of merit.

hard to say. usually that is a function of "die shrinking" and die shrinking here wouldn't have a place because regardless of the geometry - the die is the same size - trace wiring is going to run the same distances regardless of the lithographic geometry. also usally these devices when shrunk run at a lower internal power - they require less - not really so with sensors, as you can't lower the voltage as that would have an effect of increasing noise percentage. Not only that but decreasing the geometry also has the effect if the wiring is the same distance, increasing the resistance, which would again be distributed as heat.

so while transistors that are switching in the millions of times per second will consume more power the larger they are, that is relatively immaterial to the other aspects of the sensor as well, and especially considering that the switching on a sensor is relatively pedestrian at best.

Canon's never had a problem with "dark current" and heat on their sensors which is usually exhibited at long exposures and sensitive applications such as astrophotography. as a matter of fact, they've always been some of the best, and are still favoured by astro photography.

there's also more prone to ESD, more electron loss, and a mydrid of other complexities surrounding smaller geometries - which is why you see all the ASP-C and full frame sensors using around 20+ year old lithography technology.

canon's KrF could easily handle current "high tech" sensors - but only their engineers know if there's any benefit, and i'm sure they have a better grasp on that than you and I.

with respects to the heat generation - most of that would be in DiGiC and whatever sub processor they are using for the codecs as the processors have to read through 4K worth of RAW data x 24-30 frames per second, debayer and apply tonal curves, and then write it out at 24-30 frames per second in the codec of choice.

they are image processing (or have to) around 200MB / second through the DiGiC processors - because it certainly just isn't coming off the chip and being written out onto a CF/SD card.
 
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rrcphoto said:
jrista said:
neuroanatomist said:
Don Haines said:
There is a third possibility...

To do 4K right requires 4 times the computing power as 2K video. That makes a lot of heat and drains batteries fast... and there is a real possibility that the problems with dissipating the heat make it impractical in a DSLR body unless you add in heatsinks, and that is a negative to all those using it for stills. Obviously, a 1D-C has the thermal mass, battery capacity, and radiative surface to handle this, but does a smaller body?

Does the Panasonic GH4 not do 4K right? It certainly doesn't have a large thermal mass or space for big heat sinks inside.

It does not, however it has a considerably more advanced, lower power sensor. Canon is still using huge transistors, and they are not even the more advanced kind of high efficiency multi-gate transistors we're capable of manufacturing today. Canon is really, really, REALLY far behind on sensor tech, and even behind just on general CMOS fabrication.

Yeah, I think a sensor fabricated with an older process using huge transistors IS going to create a lot of heat when operated at a higher speed. So I think Don's comment has a lot of merit.

hard to say. usually that is a function of "die shrinking" and die shrinking here wouldn't have a place because regardless of the geometry - the die is the same size - trace wiring is going to run the same distances regardless of the lithographic geometry. also usally these devices when shrunk run at a lower internal power - they require less - not really so with sensors, as you can't lower the voltage as that would have an effect of increasing noise percentage. Not only that but decreasing the geometry also has the effect if the wiring is the same distance, increasing the resistance, which would again be distributed as heat.

so while transistors that are switching in the millions of times per second will consume more power the larger they are, that is relatively immaterial to the other aspects of the sensor as well, and especially considering that the switching on a sensor is relatively pedestrian at best.

Canon's never had a problem with "dark current" and heat on their sensors which is usually exhibited at long exposures and sensitive applications such as astrophotography. as a matter of fact, they've always been some of the best, and are still favoured by astro photography.

there's also more prone to ESD, more electron loss, and a mydrid of other complexities surrounding smaller geometries - which is why you see all the ASP-C and full frame sensors using around 20+ year old lithography technology.

canon's KrF could easily handle current "high tech" sensors - but only their engineers know if there's any benefit, and i'm sure they have a better grasp on that than you and I.

with respects to the heat generation - most of that would be in DiGiC and whatever sub processor they are using for the codecs as the processors have to read through 4K worth of RAW data x 24-30 frames per second, debayer and apply tonal curves, and then write it out at 24-30 frames per second in the codec of choice.

they are image processing (or have to) around 200MB / second through the DiGiC processors - because it certainly just isn't coming off the chip and being written out onto a CF/SD card.

You are right, the use of the term "die shrink" was wrong. I usually say "smaller fabrication process" or "smaller transistor size".

There are a lot of sensor patents out there, usually for smaller sensors, especially the ones that are used in mobile battery-powered devices, that are using more energy-efficient transistors. Variations of FinFET or multi-gate transistors, which have been used in CPU's now for a couple generations. I have no doubt that the DIGIC chips get very hot, but the sensors get hot as well. That's why there is an automatic shutoff for live view after an arbitrary amount of time...when the camera detects the sensor getting hot, it disables the video read, thereby disabling live view. And I believe that is just with a line-skipping read!

A full 4k video read, or worse, a full high quality binned 4:2:2 4k video read, is undoubtedly going to create some heat. Smaller transistors alone would help with the energy dissipation, and the use of a more modern type of transistor could help further (although is probably unnecessary in a large sensor).

As for Canon's dark current, for short exposures, they don't have problems. However compared to other sensors, Canon's dark current is now becoming some of the highest. I do astrophotography myself, I spend a lot of time on AP forums. Canon is still the staple, but a hacking group recently cracked the black point clipping issue with Nikon and Sony cameras. Anything using an Exmor has lower read noise and significantly lower dark current. They are quickly becoming very popular, particularly the D7100 and one of the D5000 models (although I think the latter actually uses a Toshiba sensor.)

Canon's technology is aging, and it is starting to show on all fronts. Even the once iron castle of Astrophotography has now been invaded by different brands.
 
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Canon1 said:
I'm sure canon will produce a stellar camera on all features except sensor. It's possible that the sensor is something new and revolutionary, but this is te one piece that really matters. This could either be a game changer like I believe the 5d3 was... Or it could just be a hyped up 70d. I'm hoping for the former, as I am looking for a great camera to pair with my current 5d3. 8)
My feelings exactly. The sensor will make it or break it for me. If it is at least as good as the 5D3 cropped down with same lens (in a focal-length-limited situation), I'll get one pretty much regardless of anything else (as long as it still costs significantly less than the 5D3). Otherwise, I'll probably pass.
 
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I'm pretty much done with aps-c cameras... but I think this is sufficiently spec'ed... but not enough to really make me want to switch... or upgrade my 2nd body (which is an aps-c... so maybe not entirely done).

I like the 1080p @ 60fps... but I was kinda hoping for a 120fps option... probably @ 720p. But no. And you may ask... why?... because I take slow motion video of my daughter's softball swing... and a few of her friends... and when you slow it the f' down... you can see the mistakes... not so much @ 24 fps... but 60 is adequate... but I wouldn't mind even slower and smoother video.

I'm disappointed about the built in RF... I have the ST-rf-e3 (or whatever it is called)... but I wouldn't mind if rf was a common feature in all high end canon SLR's from now on.

I'm surprised there isn't 4k... but I wouldn't want that type of file size anyway... but I'm surprised.
 
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