Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

[Crosswind]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

while handy to look at the back LCD .. most still use something called a viewfinder.

tilt screen though may happen on the 5D series.. but a full articulating screen will never happen (IMO of course).

Hey there. I'm using the OVF a lot more than the LiveView. But when I need the flippy screen, I am happy to have it onboard because it can expand the creative horizon a lot and it is a joy to use.

Sure, some might argue you could also buy an external HDMI display: but it adds bulk, weight and is expensive. You have to think twice about that.

Then what about WiFi connect. to the smartphone? That's another way to kind of have an articulating screen. But it is inconvenient to use, takes time to set up and generally slow in operation when compared.

None of these things does replace an integrated flippy screen.

@ahsanford: yes I agree with you. The 1DX series are a different kind of thing. But every other camera should have it.

So for me, the nr.1 feature on Canons next 5DS would be that little flippy screen, even if I'd only use it for about 10% of my shots.

 

[Loswr]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

...first of all there are no lenses with the respective resolving power and secondly who should want a camera with such a small sensor and the consequently high pixel pitch.

Lens resolving power is not going to be truly limiting for quite some time – a 70 MP FF sensor will resolve more detail than a 50 MP FF sensor, even with low end lenses.

Even the 5dsr has a diffraction limited aperture of f/6.7, so a 70mp FF camera would have something like f/4, which means that beyond this aperture value the image will become softer due to diffraction (think about landscape photographers for whom the high mega pixels are appealing in general but they can't us high aperture values which they usually want to do).

By orienting the DoF to the subject with a tilt/shift lens, I can focus from foreground flowers to background mountains at f/4.

I think Canon should better think about the development of a bigger sensor instead...

Such as the 205x202mm CMOS sensor they prototyped? Gonna need some big lenses for that 288mm image circle, 6.7x the size of the EF image circle...

 

[rrcphoto]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

while handy to look at the back LCD .. most still use something called a viewfinder.

tilt screen though may happen on the 5D series.. but a full articulating screen will never happen (IMO of course).

Hey there. I'm using the OVF a lot more than the LiveView. But when I need the flippy screen

so why wouldn't you use a right angle viewfinder?

especially if you use the OVF far more than liveview.

 

[SirSam]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

...first of all there are no lenses with the respective resolving power and secondly who should want a camera with such a small sensor and the consequently high pixel pitch.

Lens resolving power is not going to be truly limiting for quite some time – a 70 MP FF sensor will resolve more detail than a 50 MP FF sensor, even with low end lenses.

You're right, but you're not even nearly getting what the high mega pixel sensor "promises", you'd usually be better off buying a better lens.

Even the 5dsr has a diffraction limited aperture of f/6.7, so a 70mp FF camera would have something like f/4, which means that beyond this aperture value the image will become softer due to diffraction (think about landscape photographers for whom the high mega pixels are appealing in general but they can't us high aperture values which they usually want to do).

By orienting the DoF to the subject with a tilt/shift lens, I can focus from foreground flowers to background mountains at f/4.

You're generally right, but tilt shift lenses are only an option for tripod photography and do have their quirks. Furthermore TS lenses are not the best option for landscape photographers IMHO, because heavy tilting in order to get everything from foreground to background "sharp" compromises image quality compared to the 0/0 setting. So you'd be probably better off with focus stacking and a lower f/stop with a conventional lens. Somehow or other high mega pixel FF cameras will cause drawbacks due to the law of physics.

I think Canon should better think about the development of a bigger sensor instead...

Such as the 205x202mm CMOS sensor they prototyped? Gonna need some big lenses for that 288mm image circle, 6.7x the size of the EF image circle...

No, I was more thinking of a 44x33 or 53x40...

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Why a 5ds2 is probably coming in 2017
It won't make any sense for canon to keep the already developed 5ds2 body (5d4 framework) on the shelf for a year or more after rival nikon and sony have released their updated high megapixel products.

You presume a 5DS2 has already been designed, spun up in production and is ready to go. I'm not so sure. Just because it will likely share so much with the 5D4 doesn't mean you just swap a few subcomponents on the bill of materials and you're good to go.

And can someone provide me with the last time Canon rushed a DSLR to market to respond to competitive pressure? It's just not their style.

- A

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

...first of all there are no lenses with the respective resolving power and secondly who should want a camera with such a small sensor and the consequently high pixel pitch.

Lens resolving power is not going to be truly limiting for quite some time – a 70 MP FF sensor will resolve more detail than a 50 MP FF sensor, even with low end lenses.

+1

For reference:
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2015/06/canon-5ds-and-5ds-r-initial-resolution-tests/

Even a well used 50 prime from a 20 year old design improved on the 5DS sensor over the 5D3 sensor.

- A

 

[rrcphoto]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

We’ve been told a couple of times that the EOS 5DS and EOS 5DS R would be updated quicker than other recent Canon full frame DSLRs, which have seen product cycles of 4 years or more. According to an internal Canon product roadmap, there’s a possibility of an EOS 5DS/R/ Mark II coming before the close of 2017 and that there will only be one body to replaces both the 5DS and 5DS R.</p>
<p>According to the viewed roadmap slide, the EOS 5DS/R/ replacement will get a new sensor, though resolution wasn’t mentioned. We can also assume it will have nearly the same ergonomics and features as the EOS 5D Mark IV.</p>
<p><em>More to come…</em></p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>

Some tidbits..
1. Canon stated a 120MP DSLR was in development Sept 2015. It's been "working prototytpe" demo'ed in a 5D sized camera body.
2. Canon has stated in the past that it takes 3 years of R&D for a 1 series camera. we can assume 3 years or less for a 5 series.

So we know that a 120MP camera should be out before Sept 2018. having said camera out 2-3 years from Sept 2015 seems reasonable to me, which would make that somewhere in between Sept 2017 and 2018.

Seems to fit for me.

 

[rrcphoto]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Why a 5ds2 is probably coming in 2017
It won't make any sense for canon to keep the already developed 5ds2 body (5d4 framework) on the shelf for a year or more after rival nikon and sony have released their updated high megapixel products.

You presume a 5DS2 has already been designed, spun up in production and is ready to go. I'm not so sure. Just because it will likely share so much with the 5D4 doesn't mean you just swap a few subcomponents on the bill of materials and you're good to go.

And can someone provide me with the last time Canon rushed a DSLR to market to respond to competitive pressure? It's just not their style.

- A

probably more than that.. consider if they just shove a 120Mp sensor in there, the camera would get less than 2 fps.

they'd have to go up to dual digics 6+ and keep the older 1DX AF to even get close to 4-5 fps.

or put in digic 7 which should be available for DSLR's next year.

 

[Mr Majestyk]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

I don't believe this rumour has any merit at all.

If true, Canon can hardly just change the 5DS/R into a 5DIV - 5DS/R already has most of the key 5DIV improvements. Who would buy a 5DIV if the 5DS/R bosted even more improvements that bought it even closer to the 5DIV?

People would buy the 5D4 over the 5DS/5DS2 if opting for less pixels rewarded the performance elsewhere somehow: like if the 5D4 cleaned the 5DS's clock at high ISO noise or had a considerably higher burst rate.

But from what little I've seen on the 5D4 so far:

• It's better than the 5DS in low light, but when you downsample the 5DS to 30 MP, it's not a dramatic difference, perhaps on the order of one stop.
  
  
• It has a faster burst rate, but since Canon continues to nerf the 5D# line's processing power, it only has +2 fps over the 5DS. That's not exactly a ringing endorsement of the 5D4. 9 fps for the 5D4 would have sat far more usefully between the 5 fps of the 5DS and the 14 fps of the 1DX2. 7 fps for the 5D4 muddies things a bit as far as differentiation goes, IMHO.

- A

If we assume 5DsII gets digic 7 or even sticks with digic 6+, then even at 60MP the camera could do 7fps, and with digic 7, 8-9fps. But Canon did something stupid with 5D4 and gave it too slow frame rate. This means they will probably deliberately cripple the 5DsII frame rate at no more than 6fps. The one thing that may help is the Sony A7 updates and A9. Sony's new Bionz engine can deliver 12fps at 42MP, making the 5D4 look quite pathetic. Expect this in one of the A7's or A9. That may force Canon's hand to deliver decent fps to 5DsII. I wonder if they could do a fw update and push 5D4 to 8fps, which a single digic 6+ can deliver.

 

[9VIII]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

feb 2017: nikon announces a d820/d850/d900: 42 -60mp, it will have flip screen but will it have serious live view af?
Canon can now determine final specs of their upcoming releases for marketing purposes. Most development is already done or in it's final phase.

This. Canon still hasn't released a single FF body with a tilting screen. It is about time! I wouldn't buy a 2-3k $ camera without a flippy screen - a feature that can be so important for creative photography... I just.... d-o-n-t get it.

Well I guess for some it's not meant to be "professional" : rrrright?
Or for some it might be a no-go, because it could break sooner than later (if that's the argument, then I want to see how they are working as a photographer *head shaking*)

Can somebody tell me what's wrong with tilting screens on high-end bodies? I'm really curious.

always kind of curious on why some bemoan a tilt screen on an OVF based camera.

while handy to look at the back LCD .. most still use something called a viewfinder.

tilt screen though may happen on the 5D series.. but a full articulating screen will never happen (IMO of course).

When I'm shooting Macro a lot of the time I find myself with the camera high in the air facing straight down. Even if I can see the rear screen, accessing the controls is still cumbersome. Sometimes I need to keep the camera in a certain orientation and I can't physically get to the back of the camera.
Something as common as shooting flowers in a field is much easier with an articulating screen, otherwise you have to lie down. Maybe your subject is on the side of a creek?
In that particular circumstance wi-fi isn't good enough either unless you have a two man team (it's times like these that I really wish Google Glass had been successful).

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Some tidbits..
1. Canon stated a 120MP DSLR was in development Sept 2015. It's been "working prototytpe" demo'ed in a 5D sized camera body.
2. Canon has stated in the past that it takes 3 years of R&D for a 1 series camera. we can assume 3 years or less for a 5 series.

So we know that a 120MP camera should be out by Sept 2018. having said camera out 2-3 years from Sept 2015 seems reasonable to me, which would make that somewhere in between 2017 and 2018.

Seems to fit for me.

Can they do it in 2017? Absolutely. That's not the question. Will they undermine their total (original) 5DS/5DS R profits by effectively obsoleting that line before it's time? See my pros/cons on this on the first page of the thread.

There's a lovely upside to having Canon's prior FF 'staged waterfall' of releases go from...

1DX2 --> 5D4 --> 6D2
plus a (relatively) fast follow-up of a 5DS2 in 2017

To this new cadence 4-ish-or-so years from now:

1DX3 --> 5D5 & 5DS3 (in some close proximity) --> 6D3

Which would be attractive. Canon would maximize it's 5D brand efficiencies and shared components, 5D level consumers would not be stuck between choosing a new 5D feature over the most 5DS resolution, etc.

But this pretty announcement/rollout picture only happens if:

• Canon abandons it's habits regarding the length of FF camera life-cycles
• Canon deliberately undercuts (original) 5DS / 5DS R profits by replacing the product sooner than they usually do
• Canon interrupts whatever else its finite product development bandwidth was working on to accelerate the 5DS line -- perhaps this will slow down FF mirrorless, an SL1 follow up, an EF interchangeable lens 4k camcorder, etc.

That's a tall list of things Canon needs to concede to make this happen, so I am not sold on this rumor yet. But they could do it.

- A

 

[Crosswind]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

So why wouldn't you use a right angle viewfinder?

especially if you use the OVF far more than liveview.

Flippy screen is more flexible. And again, right angle vf would add weight, bulk and cost, same as external HDMI display. And the canon app takes too much time to set up. So I really value an articulating screen for those situations where I quickly need it. There is no other tool that can completely "replace" its qualities (if that's the correct term).

The only advantages I see is that an external HDMI screen mounted on top of the camera can give you a more detailed and bigger view of the elements in your frame, which can make composition easier and more precise.

And the right angle VF has the (dis-)advantages of the OVF and doesn't draw any power from the battery.

But both are "extensions" of the camera and take up space and so they are not really convenient for traveling or long walks, exploring the landscape. My gear is generally light-weight, but I don't want more of it...

So I demand a built-in flippy screen, and Canon is lagging behind the competition. Nikon for example did everything right with the D750. But I have faith in Canon and theres hope that one day, they will offer more FF bodies with articulating screens.

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

But Canon did something stupid with 5D4 and gave it too slow frame rate. This means they will probably deliberately cripple the 5DsII frame rate at no more than 6fps.

Agree. Or perhaps the 5DS2 stays at 5 fps but gains a large resolution bump. Either way, I think Canon pooched the 5D4 fps decision to protect 1DX2 sales. (Don't get me wrong, they needed to protect the 1DX2, but not so aggressively on this feature -- 8-9 fps seems like it would have been a better call.)

- A

 

[lino]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

FUJI GFX 50S vs CANON 5DS MK ii

 

[Crosswind]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

But Canon did something stupid with 5D4 and gave it too slow frame rate. This means they will probably deliberately cripple the 5DsII frame rate at no more than 6fps.

Agree. Or perhaps the 5DS2 stays at 5 fps but gains a large resolution bump. Either way, I think Canon pooched the 5D4 fps decision to protect 1DX2 sales. (Don't get me wrong, they needed to protect the 1DX2, but not so aggressively on this feature -- 8-9 fps seems like it would have been a better call.)

- A

I wouldn't have any problems with that. The 5DS series is not built for sports of course, so even if the mk2 would only shoot at 2-3 fps.... That's OK i.m.o. as long as it continues its path as high res monster.

Special tools for special jobs or however you'd call it..

 

[lino]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

I think its going to be just a resolution bump to the 5d4 sensor ...

 

[j-nord]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

while handy to look at the back LCD .. most still use something called a viewfinder.

tilt screen though may happen on the 5D series.. but a full articulating screen will never happen (IMO of course).

Hey there. I'm using the OVF a lot more than the LiveView. But when I need the flippy screen

so why wouldn't you use a right angle viewfinder?

especially if you use the OVF far more than liveview.

I guess you've never used a tripod or gotten creative with shooting angles or shot at night. Being able to shoot over your head or close to the ground is FAR easier with a tilt screen. Or working with a tripod for any amount of time. Or any of the previously mentioned where you want/need an exposure preview. It clearly makes shooting so much easier for so many different scenarios... you must be trolling.

 

[9VIII]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Why so soon?
They might want a single 5D chassis for manufacturing efficiency.

If so, tilty screen would be less likely. CF may remain, ...

Would that mean a minimal effort (or cost) upgrade, or would the 50 MP sensor be retired with minimal payback on its development cost? Seems hard to justify a big boost in specs. Might be a loss leading resolution king, though.

I have to expect that development costs are shared across all of the "5D" body shells, and the release of the 5D4 might be as much reason to upgrade the 5Ds as a new sensor.

If Canon gets extra value by releasing a body in multiple products then maybe they would rather see all 5D products adopt the same body sooner rather than later.
If the 5D3 is "discontinued" but the 5Ds is still in production then that's probably holding up a few lines in the factory, moving the 5Ds over to the 5D4 body style would unify production.

Canon constantly shows off ridiculous sensor concepts, I think it's safe to say that the design of sensors in consumer products is strictly a matter of practical application and not a matter of development per-product. Development is ongoing, they can probably produce a sensor to any given spec at any moment just as easily as any other.
They did note that the DPAF sensors are a higher level of difficulty in manufacturing (it sounds like they needed to use smaller lithography to make it work), but that's still a matter of manufacturing cost and not development cost.

 

[Crosswind]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Being able to shoot over your head or close to the ground is FAR easier with a tilt screen. Or working with a tripod for any amount of time. Or any of the previously mentioned where you want/need an exposure preview. It clearly makes shooting so much easier for so many different scenarios

+1
Exactly what I mean. Especially a studio and landscape camera like the 5DS ought to have it. Why not?

 

[rrcphoto]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Some tidbits..
1. Canon stated a 120MP DSLR was in development Sept 2015. It's been "working prototytpe" demo'ed in a 5D sized camera body.
2. Canon has stated in the past that it takes 3 years of R&D for a 1 series camera. we can assume 3 years or less for a 5 series.

So we know that a 120MP camera should be out by Sept 2018. having said camera out 2-3 years from Sept 2015 seems reasonable to me, which would make that somewhere in between 2017 and 2018.

Seems to fit for me.

Can they do it in 2017? Absolutely. That's not the question. Will they undermine their total (original) 5DS/5DS R profits by effectively obsoleting that line before it's time?

why would it obsolete the line.

we have no idea how long it takes to amortize out the R&D really.

for all we know, the R&D is already paid for so why not?