*UPDATED* Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

[douglaurent]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

This is not a forum for amateurs

Of course it is, where did you get the idea that CR is for pros only?

That's his opinion. He's welcome to express his opinion even though, as usual, doing so makes him look foolish.

Amateurs: people who own basic DSLR's and kit lenses and are satisfied with what they have. Between amateur and pro there are a lot more shades of enthusiasts etc, and for all of them the forum can be interesting of course.

 

[douglaurent]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

An in my opinion Canon only delivers the best product in 14 of 40 categories:

So that list is your 40 categories? Those aren't categories - its a list of products you like to use.

It is interesting you are so critical about Canon when the nearest competitors in you 'list of categories' are:
Nikon - 8
Zeiss - 8
Sony - 4

Yeah, Canon's doing a really bad job there.

I have friends who own a Nissan 4x4 for winter travel and a Mazda for summer days. I don't ever recall them bitching about how Mazda are so incompetent because the Mazda doesn't meet their needs for winter.

Many people in this forum behave as if Canon delivers the #1 quality in everything and are personally insulted if you don't agree, like as if their equipment is a family member. Understandable, because people think they get and own the best, if they buy the top brand and spend a lot of money.

I personally also do have equal lists for improvments for Nikon and Sony. While Nikon's speed of innovation and price politics are even worse than Canon's, Sony shows that they are much more willing to give the best they can.

And Sony's lense lineup has some gaps, but most of the lenses are very close to Canon's quality and much lighter. Plus you can use nearly any lens on a Sony mirrorless body including speedboosters, and some mirrorless features of Sony are nowhere to be seen from Canon.

So the former true self conception that Canon is #1 is not valid anymore concerning features, quality etc. That is much different than in former decades now, and Canon is just one among several other sometimes equal or better options. I wish it wasn't like that, because I'd rather spend money on Canon products only!

 

[Mikehit]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

So given that Canon have more hits in your top 40 than any other marque, do you go onto the Sony and Nikon sites and give them even more criticism? Or do you reserve your bile for Canon?

There are many companies that are innovative but have a pitifully small (though useful) line-up of products. This has always been the case and always will be.
Ask any professional if they would rather have the 'innovation' of Sony or the reliability and after-sales service and support of Canon. Many pros will not have Sony as their main rig for precisely that reason.
Ask any wildlife photographer if they will risk their livelihood putting the 500mm f4L on a A7Rii with metabones adapter, shall we? Or is that a daft question given that the definition of a successful camera is if they make products that you want.

Sony made a major leap forward with the A7R(ii) - that is the easy bit (well, apart from their highly inferior interface...and that is easiest of all!!). Let's see they can keep up that pace of evolution in the next 5 years. I have read many reviews saying the 5DSR and the 5DIV have closed the gap considerably. Let's see where Sony and Canon are in 5 years and see if you are still so critical of Canon.

 

[privatebydesign]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

Sony A99II (Allround)
Sony A7SII (Lowlight)
Canon 1DXII (4K 60fps, Video Autofocus)
Canon 5DsR (Resolution)
Nikon D810A (Astro)

Canon 8-15/4 Fisheye
Sigma Art 12-24/4
Canon 16-35/2.8 III
Sony 24-70/2.8 GM
Nikon 70-200/2.8 VR FL
Canon 100-400/4.5-5.6 II IS
Canon 200-400/4 IS +1.4EXT
Sony 24-240/3.5-6.3 (Allround)

Voigtländer 10/5.6
Voigtländer 12/5.6
Zeiss Milvus 15/2.8
Zeiss Batis 18/2.8
Zeiss Milvus 21/2.8
Sigma Art 24/1.4
Zeiss Otus 28/1.4
Canon 35/1.4 II
Zeiss Milvus 50/2 Macro
Zeiss Otus 55/1.4
Canon 65/2.8 Macro 1-5x
Sigma Art 85/1.4
Zeiss Milvus 100/2 Macro
Nikon 105/1.4
Zeiss Milvus 135/2
Sigma 180/2.8 OS Macro
Nikon 200/2 VR II
Canon 300/2.8 II IS
Canon 400/2.8 II IS
Canon 500/4 II IS
Canon 600/4 II IS
Nikon 800/5.6 VR FL

Canon 17/4 TS
Nikon 19/4 TS
Canon 24/3.5 TS
Nikon 45/2.8 TS
Nikon 90/2.8 TS

I take issue with the four in red and believe either the Canon is 'better' (Sigma 12-24 vs Canon 11-24) or there is no effective difference (Nikon 800 vs Canon 800).

Actually there is bugger all difference between the Canon and Nikon PC-E 45 and 90 and the Canon TS-E 45 and 90 too, all four need upgrading with independent rotation. Also what's with the PC-E 19? Why do you need a 17mm TS-E and a 19mm PC-E? They are direct competitors and the Canon has been out for years and is half the price of the 19 that appears to be made from unobtanium.

So once you reduce your list to competing products and consider observable differences in output Canon is far and away the leader of manufacturers. Of 39 "categories" they make at least 20 bests or equals, that seems pretty good to me!

 

[Orangutan]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

Many people in this forum behave as if Canon delivers the #1 quality in everything and are personally insulted if you don't agree

I don't know of any, please give examples.

All the Canon supporters on this forum seem to be aware that there are specific areas that would benefit from improvement.

 

[Orangutan]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

I respectfully disagree.

o·pin·ion əˈpinyən/ noun
a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

For example, some people hold the opinion that the earth is flat. They sound like idiots when they share that opinion with people who are cognizant of the facts, but it remains their right to hold that opinion.

With equal respect, it seems plain to me that "not necessarily based on fact or knowledge" is not at all the same as standing opposed to fact. For example (and maintaining your astronomical theme), suppose someone says "I believe there's no life in the universe outside of Earth." That would be an opinion, even though it's not based on fact. On the other hand, suppose life were found on Europa that did not use DNA for its genes. Then the original assertion would no longer be an opinion, but a false statement.

Or, as the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan said so well (or has been attributed to him), "everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."

 

[Diko]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

Sorry if in the previous 14 pages someone already has pointed out the answer to:

Why on the poll there was EOS 90 as an option to 2017 when it's not even on the bloody roadmap for this year?

And why would anyone choose 24-70 f2.8 instead of the CANON second version of it? Does it has macro (like Canon mk1 version, which is/was awesome btw)?

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

So given that Canon have more hits in your top 40 than any other marque, do you go onto the Sony and Nikon sites and give them even more criticism? Or do you reserve your bile for Canon?

+1. This. No single imaging company will be the best at everything because it's a competitive industry. To expect one company to have everything better than everyone else is nuts.

Canon's ecosystem is not a paradise -- it's just the most reliable, satisfying, surprise-free, flexible and practical place to live.

I'm as 'Canon apologist-y' as anyone here and I would tell you first-hand that not all of Canon's products / features / components are the best. But the logic that...

1) Canon isn't the best at everything
2) Other companies are more exciting / innovative / quick-to-market
3) Therefore Canon is doomed unless they do exactly what I want right now

...is patently absurd. That implies that corporation's trajectory is more important than it's present altitude.

I don't need to feel good about the momentum of my company. I need to feel good that that company has what I need. Overwhelmingly, Canon ticks those boxes more than other companies, and quite frankly, it's going to be that way for some time.

- A

 

[scyrene]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

I respectfully disagree.

o·pin·ion əˈpinyən/ noun
a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

For example, some people hold the opinion that the earth is flat. They sound like idiots when they share that opinion with people who are cognizant of the facts, but it remains their right to hold that opinion.

With equal respect, it seems plain to me that "not necessarily based on fact or knowledge" is not at all the same as standing opposed to fact. For example (and maintaining your astronomical theme), suppose someone says "I believe there's no life in the universe outside of Earth." That would be an opinion, even though it's not based on fact. On the other hand, suppose life were found on Europa that did not use DNA for its genes. Then the original assertion would no longer be an opinion, but a false statement.

Or, as the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan said so well (or has been attributed to him), "everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."

This is way off topic but...

I'm afraid I'm with Neuro here. 'Opinion' doesn't connote factual basis. Opinion is belief. One can believe anything, and hold any opinion. We'd need a whole new word if your preferred meaning held true. It might be a useful distinction to make (some languages do encode the distinction unknown-untrue, but not English, in this case), but that's not how it is.

 

[Fleetie]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

This is way off topic but...

I'm afraid I'm with Neuro here. 'Opinion' doesn't connote factual basis. Opinion is belief. One can believe anything, and hold any opinion. We'd need a whole new word if your preferred meaning held true. It might be a useful distinction to make (some languages do encode the distinction unknown-untrue, but not English, in this case), but that's not how it is.

Well I am genuinely interested in your other-languages statement.
Examples would be appreciated! I like things like this; extra-ordinary distinctions, in other languages!
But this is a camera forum, so I understand if you don't want to elaborate.

 

[Antono Refa]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

If that roadmap would be true, it would be very disappointing and only contain 1 out of approx 50 cameras and lenses I have on a personal wish list and would buy (products which all wouldn't be unrealistic looking at the competition and the market in the year 2017):

<snip>

14-24/2.8 IS
16-35/2.8 IS
24-70/2.8 IS

<snip>

I'll settle for TS-E 11-800mm f/1.0 IS USM and TS-E 8-15mm f/0.7 IS USM fish eye, both with auto focus, 5 axis 6 stops IS, and the ability to tilt & shift on both axis.

So regarding these 3 zooms

I chose those in random, IIRC because they were on top of the lenses list.

 

[AvTvM]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

any single opinion held by any single person can be a) factually correct or b) factually incorrect or c) factually partially correct to any degree. in my opinion this is "self-evident" and not difficult to understand ... ;-)

furthermore i am of the opinion there is no "objective truth". not in any language, not for anybody. all there is, are opionions, beliefs and disbelieves. subjective stuff, perception. includes natural sciences and so-called "laws of nature".

who knows, whether we are not all just existing in a "Matrix". would not contradict descartes logic. or as Patti Smith has put it so poetically: "i was dreaming in my dreaming" ...

 

[douglaurent]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

So given that Canon have more hits in your top 40 than any other marque, do you go onto the Sony and Nikon sites and give them even more criticism? Or do you reserve your bile for Canon?

There are many companies that are innovative but have a pitifully small (though useful) line-up of products. This has always been the case and always will be.
Ask any professional if they would rather have the 'innovation' of Sony or the reliability and after-sales service and support of Canon. Many pros will not have Sony as their main rig for precisely that reason.
Ask any wildlife photographer if they will risk their livelihood putting the 500mm f4L on a A7Rii with metabones adapter, shall we? Or is that a daft question given that the definition of a successful camera is if they make products that you want.

Sony made a major leap forward with the A7R(ii) - that is the easy bit (well, apart from their highly inferior interface...and that is easiest of all!!). Let's see they can keep up that pace of evolution in the next 5 years. I have read many reviews saying the 5DSR and the 5DIV have closed the gap considerably. Let's see where Sony and Canon are in 5 years and see if you are still so critical of Canon.

Yes, I give the same justified criticism to all the other manufacturers as well.

Probably in 5 years Canon is ahead in everything again against Sony. That would be no surprise because they are capable of anything. But that wouldn't help then, because Canon stole a lot of time from many photographers and filmmakers by holding back features, or making it necessary to buy more products than necessary. That's what it's all about.

 

[douglaurent]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

If that roadmap would be true, it would be very disappointing and only contain 1 out of approx 50 cameras and lenses I have on a personal wish list and would buy (products which all wouldn't be unrealistic looking at the competition and the market in the year 2017):

<snip>

14-24/2.8 IS
16-35/2.8 IS
24-70/2.8 IS

<snip>

I'll settle for TS-E 11-800mm f/1.0 IS USM and TS-E 8-15mm f/0.7 IS USM fish eye, both with auto focus, 5 axis 6 stops IS, and the ability to tilt & shift on both axis.

So regarding these 3 zooms

I chose those in random, IIRC because they were on top of the lenses list.

So which lenses of the list are completely unrealistic?

 

[Mikehit]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

But that wouldn't help then, because Canon stole a lot of time from many photographers and filmmakers

That is verging on peurile.
They have stolen nothing - they just didn't give you what you wanted. WAAAAAAH!.
More exactly, they didn't give you what you thought was technically possible, but my guess is you know squat about the trade offs between technicalities and costing. All you're bothered about it 'me me me', and my guess is that if they did make a camera with all the features you wanted you would refuse to pay the cost it takes.

 

[Loswr]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

who knows, whether we are not all just existing in a "Matrix". would not contradict descartes logic. or as Patti Smith has put it so poetically: "i was dreaming in my dreaming" ...

It does seem that might be the case for you, the AvTvM Universe.

 

[Loswr]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

Yes, I give the same justified criticism to all the other manufacturers as well.

Lol, I'm sure they give it as much credence as Canon. None. But if whining on the Internet makes you feel better, well, good for you.

Probably in 5 years Canon is ahead in everything again against Sony.

Canon is very far ahead of Sony now in what matters most to both Canon and Sony. Given their history, in five years, it's not unlikely that Sony's only contribution to the ILC market will be sensors used in other manufacturers' cameras.

 

[Antono Refa]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

So which lenses of the list are completely unrealistic?

There are several lenses which I think are unlikely:

1. 14-24/2.8 IS - no other company makes such a lens.
2. 16-35/2.8 IS - no other company makes such a lens.
3. 12/2.8 IS - no other company makes such a lens, and the Laowa 12mm f/2.8 is very new.
4. 14/2.8 IS - no other company makes such a lens.
5. 18/2 IS - no other company makes such a lens. AFAIK, there is only one 18mm f/2 lens for m43, not even APS-C.
6. 20/1.4 IS - no other company makes such a lens.
7. 20/1.8 IS - no other company makes such a lens, and is very similar to the above.
8. 24/1.4 IS - no other company makes such a lens.
9. 24/1.8 IS - no other company makes such a lens, and is very similar to the above.
[Repeat 28 & 35mm]
10. 50/1.2 IS - no other company makes such a lens.
11. 85/1.2 IS - no other company makes such a lens.

No matter how realistic the lenses are, the more lenses are on the list, the less realistic it is. Canon's resources are limited, all the more so with decreasing sales, investing in R&D and manufacturing lines of >20 lenses could easily take over five years, by which time your least would change.

Making 15 lenses no other company ever made? Now, that's unrealistic.

 

[Loswr]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

Making 15 lenses no other company ever made? Now, that's unrealistic.

Nonsense, Canon can easily do it. In addition to their known corporate goals of making profit, returning value to shareholders, and being environmentally conscious, they have a secret corporate goal of holding back technology so they can steal time from photographers. It's secret, but douglaurent knows all about it because he's bought some Canon gear and talked to a few people that rent that gear from him.

 

[Orangutan]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

Let's continue to drive straight off the roadmap.

'Opinion' doesn't connote factual basis.

I never said it did.

Opinion is belief.

No. In my opinion, they're closely related, but not the same.

I found some material that asserted that opinion was reflexive, that it was "self-report or attitudinal statement." I.e., it's personal or values-related, whereas belief is a holding of factual truth.

One can believe anything

This is true, and has caused many problems in the world.

I'm saying an opinion can live in the area between known-true and unknown, but it's not the same as belief -- it's more an attitude or value about a belief than the belief itself. Here's an example of my distinction: consider a physician speaking to a patient.

Belief: "Medication A performed best in the clinical trials." This is a belief because it's a holding of fact. Even if it's false, it's still a belief.

Opinion: "Medication A is the best treatment for your condition." This is a value statement about a belief, not the belief itself.

Why this matters: once an opinion has been shown to be based on falsehood, it no longer deserves deference we often try to give to values, attitudes and self-reports. (Some would argue the same of false beliefs, but that's a different conversation.)

Thanks for the entertaining discussion; and for those interested, here are a few URLs.

http://writing.colostate.edu/guides/teaching/co300man/pop12d.cfm

http://www.auburn.edu/academic/education/reading_genie/Fact-opinion.html