What’s next from Canon?

[Michael Clark]

you must have amazing mind reading powers to discern “religious devotion” in people you have never met.

and without even quoting a word of evidence.

I've seen thousands upon thousands of such posts. Do you wish us to quote all of them?

 

[Michael Clark]

The EVF shows you what the sensor sees. The OVF doesn't.

But what the sensor sees and what the final image looks like aren't necessarily the same thing. For anyone who shoots raw and post-processes expertly to account for the unique properties of a specific scene, WYSIWYG is not that true.

 

[Michael Clark]

Maybe because it is a lot cheaper compared to Cine lines?

Do you expect to get Mercedes-Benz features and performance for a Kia price?

Do you expect to get Tag-Heuer features and performance for a Timex price?

Why would you expect to get Cine camera/lens features and performance for an RF or EF price?

 

[ColinJR]

I'm a little surprised we don't have the 50 1.8 yet. That being said, an 18-45 would be tremendously useful for real estate photography. It would be great if it were a proper update to the 17-40 L lens.

 

[Bert63]

That was easier for many folks when Canon held the line on price for the full length of most camera's time in the catalog. It meant they could use a camera for a couple of years and sell it when they wanted a newer model without taking a bath. Now that Canon has seemed to have adopted Sony's strategy of lowering the price of older models and leaving them in the catalog longer, that is not so much the case. Try selling a lightly used 5D Mark IV today for anywhere near what it cost you new in 2016-17!

My 5D4 is cherry. I mean, really. I baby my gear as it is but I’m not exaggerating when I say there isn’t a mark on it. Anywhere. Shutter actuations are low because I have a truckload of cameras bodies and they all get used.

When I began R5 and possible 100-500L shopping I thought of selling my 7D2, 5D4, and maybe even my EOS-R to offset the hit. I don’t need to, I will just have to get a bigger shelf. But in the process of feeling it out I discovered there is no real market for these bodies unless you want to give them away. I think Adorama wanted to give $1000 for a ‘best case’ EOS-R.

No thanks. I’ll keep all my bodies and use them for decoration before I let them go for that kind of money. That’s why I still have every body I’ve ever bought. Every lens too - even the really horrible ones hahaha...

I mean, what kind of idiot owns a 70-300 AND a 75-300 hmmm? It gets worse, oh yes.

 

[Bert63]

The 20MP sensor of the 7D Mark II has the same pixel density as a 50MP FF sensor, though. That's denser than both the 5D Mark IV and the EOS R.

This is true and a great point BUT when I went from my 7D2 to my 5D4 my keeper rate improved to the point I felt like I was cheating.

I still shoot my 7D2 from time to time and when I go to crop I’m always disappointed with the results in relation to my 5D4 or EOS-R.

I’m very anxious to see what the 20MP in the R6 can do but I know that if I opted for the R6 instead of the R5 I’d have buyer’s remorse and always wonder ‘what if..’

Besides, I’m looking forward to heating my house when I shoot 8K on my R5. I won’t even have to turn on the heat this winter. /s

 

[Bert63]

But what the sensor sees and what the final image looks like aren't necessarily the same thing. For anyone who shoots raw and post-processes expertly to account for the unique properties of a specific scene, WYSIWYG is not that true.

I can tell you this from my experience.

When I shoot my EOS-R (and again, I shoot wildlife 99.99999 percent of the time) the ability to see the changes to my settings as I look through the eyepiece is as close to the actual image result as you can get. Shooting under to save highlights while balancing what you’ll be able to recover in post is ten times easier (for me) when shooting the EVF vice the OVF.

On my 5D4 I adjust and hope. I’m not the guy who can just ‘click-click’ a couple of this or that and nail the exposure every time - especially when I’m walking through the woods and the light is different every two steps. I usually make my best guess and take a test shot and see what the back panel tells me and go from there. If you’re shooting birds the second try usually isn’t going to happen.

With The EVF my confidence is increased ten-fold that I’m going to be close on the first shot - and with wildlife that’s often all you get. For ME (and only me) it has made me a better photographer because I’ve learned things looking through the EVF that I use when I go back to the OVF on my 5D4.

If my OVF on my 5D4 was as big and open as my EVF on my EOS-R I might feel differently. After shooting the R for a couple of days when I pick up the 5D4 I feel like I’m looking through a pooly lit tunnel when I look through the eyepiece.

YMMV.

 

[Ozarker]

I was under the impression Canon officially discontinued the EF 400mm f/5.6 a while back.

Maybe not.

It is still listed at Canon USA's website, though it has been showing as out of stock there for forever.

It is listed as "closeout" at Adorama. But, Adorama no longer carries the EF 200mm f/2.8 either and B&H apparently has some. So maybe it is just Adorama choosing not to sell it anymore.

 

[unfocused]

On the other hand, who is making an EF mount camera like what the 5D Mark V would be that can steal customers away from Canon if they don't produce a 5D Mark V? Most users who want a 5D Mark V will eventually "settle" for an R5. A lot really depends upon how good the improved EVF is for shooting sports/action.

Good points. I suppose if both Canon and Nikon were to quit developing DSLRs that would leave users with little choice. But, they would still have to weigh their ability to get customers to migrate vs. losing customers who simply choose not to buy into the mirrorless market.

Would DSLR users, who skew older, simply hang on to their existing bodies or drop photography as a hobby altogether? I'm in my mid-sixties. I'm good for probably another generation of professional level cameras, but after I retire in a couple of years, and quit doing any professional photography, I don't know what choices I will make; and I'm a serious GAS addict.

Certainly there would be some potential 5DV buyers who, if they don't have that option, choose instead to keep their money in their wallet or spend it in other ways.

Of course, you are correct in that a lot depends on how good the improved EVF is, but I'm not sure that is the only factor. I come down squarely on the side of Canon wanting to hedge their bets. Especially because the roadmap is pretty clear and the marginal improvements likely to show up in a 5DV already exist in other models, so the incremental costs may not be that high. Only time will tell if I'm right or wrong.

 

[davidhfe]

How can a sensor that only reads out at 60fps do full sensor width video at 120fps?

Or how can a mechanical shutter with curtain transit times in the neighborhood of 2.5 milliseconds (the 1D X Mark II, 1D X, and 7D Mark II all have curtain transit times of around 2.5-2.7ms) be that much better than a sensor that can read out at, say, 240fps? (1/400 = 2.5ms, 1/240 = 4.17ms)

Yes, there will be more rolling shutter effect at 20fps with the e-shutter. But it will not be anywhere near as bad as a sensor that can only read out 60fps. (1/60 = 16.67ms, 1/120 = 8.33ms)

And there's more to the e-shutter than speed; Anyone who's clicked away on a DLSR at a quiet event only to receive glares from people over the noise will appreciate it.

On the technical stuff, keep in mind all these read modes have different reading/binning/bit depths. The 4K120 is not reading 45mp x 14 bit x 120fps, for instance: It's going to be a binned 10 bit read. The 8K raw (35mp DCI crop x 12 bit x 30) is probably right at the limit for this bad boy.

Edit: Related if anyone has seen an example of a full list of video and stills modes, with bitrates and sampling techniques, I'd love to see it. DPReview came close but was missing bitrates and stills modes. I expect there are a whole boatloads of asterisks. Will probably need to wait for the white paper or manual.

 

[ReflexVE]

My 5D4 is cherry. I mean, really. I baby my gear as it is but I’m not exaggerating when I say there isn’t a mark on it. Anywhere. Shutter actuations are low because I have a truckload of cameras bodies and they all get used.

When I began R5 and possible 100-500L shopping I thought of selling my 7D2, 5D4, and maybe even my EOS-R to offset the hit. I don’t need to, I will just have to get a bigger shelf. But in the process of feeling it out I discovered there is no real market for these bodies unless you want to give them away. I think Adorama wanted to give $1000 for a ‘best case’ EOS-R.

No thanks. I’ll keep all my bodies and use them for decoration before I let them go for that kind of money. That’s why I still have every body I’ve ever bought. Every lens too - even the really horrible ones hahaha...

I mean, what kind of idiot owns a 70-300 AND a 75-300 hmmm? It gets worse, oh yes.

Alms for the poor! Alms for the poor! (Alms = FF EOS R in this instance)

 

[usern4cr]

Canon Price Watch, they are a way that genuine Canon dealers can somewhat circumvent Canon's minimum advertised price policy. They are 100% legitimate I have bought $10,000's of gear via them, indeed I won't buy any Canon gear without getting a quote from them first. Gordon is super fast with his follow up emails and accurate and professional, can't recommend them highly enough.

Canon Camera and Lens Deals - Canon Price Watch

www.cpricewatch.com

This is the first I've heard of CPW (thanks for the post). But how are they able to sell unopened-new-in-the-box RF lenses with 1yr US(I assume) warranties at such discounted prices when all the places I've seen have to stick to MSRP? I'd be glad to take advantage of these lens deals, but what is the risk? (FYI - I'm in Kentucky)

 

[unfocused]

This is the first I've heard of CPW (thanks for the post). But how are they able to sell unopened-new-in-the-box RF lenses with 1yr US(I assume) warranties at such discounted prices when all the places I've seen have to stick to MSRP? I'd be glad to take advantage of these lens deals, but what is the risk? (FYI - I'm in Kentucky)

No risk. CPW doesn't sell anything. He acts as a middleman for Canon dealers who are willing to offer discounted prices.

Canon requires all dealers to follow MAP pricing (Not MSRP). MAP means Minimum Advertised Price. Under MAP dealers cannot advertise a price below MSRP, but there is no restriction on them accepting a lower price. When you contact CPW to express an interest in buying a product at the discounted street price, you will receive a response from Gordon at CPW that has the contact information for dealers willing to sell at the street price (often he has several dealers with different deals). You then contact the dealer and they send you an invoice at the street price.

Essentially, it's an internet equivalent of walking into a dealership and asking the dealer if they can "do better" than the MSRP. Canon does not prohibit dealers from accepting less than MSRP, they just don't want dealers advertising a product for less than MSRP.

 

[privatebydesign]

This is the first I've heard of CPW (thanks for the post). But how are they able to sell unopened-new-in-the-box RF lenses with 1yr US(I assume) warranties at such discounted prices when all the places I've seen have to stick to MSRP? I'd be glad to take advantage of these lens deals, but what is the risk? (FYI - I'm in Kentucky)

As unfocused says CPW don’t actually sell anything, they merely put an authorized Canon dealer and you in touch with each other via email, you buy the item direct from the brick and mortar Canon dealer.

It is 100% genuine and legitimate, after you email Gordon (CPW) a Canon dealer emails you. I have spent close to $20,000 doing this (two 1DX II’s and several lenses) and I have never had an issue even when I have needed subsequent repairs, the item just goes direct to Canon USA as it would if you bought it locally or from B&H.

There is no risk, it is a proven safe and trustworthy method.

 

[unfocused]

Getting back to the original subject "What's Next from Canon."

2021 will be the year of the DSLR.

5DV:
Same sensor as R5;
Smart Controller from 1DX III
Same card configuration as R5
First ever IBIS in a Canon DSLR
12 fps mechanical shutter
Autofocus with animal eye detect
Flip Screen

7DIII
Canon shocks everyone by offering a new 7D model
90 D sensor but with improved low pass filter similar to the 1DxIII
Smart Controller
Same card configuration as R5
IBIS
14 fps mechanical shutter
Autofocus with animal eye detect
Flip Screen
Uncertain at this time if the 7DIII will be have an integrated grip and use the 1DxIII battery.

New EF-CR lenses
Canon introduces the following as the first three in their new series of EF-CR lens series:
24-105 F4 IS;
24-70 F2.8;
70-200 F2.8 IS

Lenses are basically identical to existing EF lenses with the addition of a programmable control ring that offers the same customization options as the RF lens series. The 5DV and 7DIII come from the factory with the ability to use the new Control Ring lenses. The 1DX III is updated via a firmware upgrade. Canon announces they will be offering new Control Ring versions of many of their EF lenses over the next few years.

Fun to dream. Nothing here would be impossible or even difficult for Canon to do. But, it would cause many heads to explode.

 

[victorshikhman]

Getting back to the original subject "What's Next from Canon."

2021 will be the year of the DSLR.

5DV:
Same sensor as R5;
Smart Controller from 1DX III
Same card configuration as R5
First ever IBIS in a Canon DSLR
12 fps mechanical shutter
Autofocus with animal eye detect
Flip Screen

7DIII
Canon shocks everyone by offering a new 7D model
90 D sensor but with improved low pass filter similar to the 1DxIII
Smart Controller
Same card configuration as R5
IBIS
14 fps mechanical shutter
Autofocus with animal eye detect
Flip Screen
Uncertain at this time if the 7DIII will be have an integrated grip and use the 1DxIII battery.

New EF-CR lenses
Canon introduces the following as the first three in their new series of EF-CR lens series:
24-105 F4 IS;
24-70 F2.8;
70-200 F2.8 IS

Lenses are basically identical to existing EF lenses with the addition of a programmable control ring that offers the same customization options as the RF lens series. The 5DV and 7DIII come from the factory with the ability to use the new Control Ring lenses. The 1DX III is updated via a firmware upgrade. Canon announces they will be offering new Control Ring versions of many of their EF lenses over the next few years.

Fun to dream. Nothing here would be impossible or even difficult for Canon to do. But, it would cause many heads to explode.

Don't forget an EF-S 17-55mm F/2.8 IS II. And as long as we're dreaming, I'd like it with weather sealing.

 

[Michael Clark]

Out of curiosity, higher in absolute numbers, or in cameras sold per X persons?

Higher price per unit doesn't sound all that surprising to me. Price of electronics has dropped, but there's so much more of it in a modern camera.

Interchangeable lens cameras are still selling at higher levels, in terms of units sold, than in, say, the year 2000 before the digital revolution took off around 2003-2005. The first few generations of digital cameras came with remarkable amounts of improvements from one to the next, so many folks were willing to replace their cameras every couple of years.

As the technology has matured, the rate of improvement has also slowed. Thus replacement cycles have gotten longer.

A 5D Mark III purchased in 2012 is still a relatively good stills camera compared to the latest offerings eight years later at the beginning of 2020.

That same $3,499 ($3,929 adjusted for inflation in 2020) 5D Mark III in early 2012 (22.3MP. ISO 12560, 6fps) was an astounding leap over anything available eight years earlier in Q1 of 2004. The $8,000 ($12K in 2020) 11.1MP FF 1Ds was limited to ISO 1250, 3fps with a 10 shot buffer. The $4,500 ($6,141 in 2020) APS-C 1D Mark II "high speed sports body" was an 8.2MP body limited to ISO 1600 and 8 fps with a buffer of 20 raw or 40 JPEGs!

 

[jolyonralph]

The mirror already is translucent. The AF module sits below the mirror box and there is second mirror behind the main one. Question just is can DPAF work with that amount of light.

This isn't new.

Canon EOS RT - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But honestly, this isn't going to happen. No-one is investing in SLR technology now.

These conversations all sound like what Horse & Cart enthusiasts might have said at the time of the introduction of the motor car, eg "But what if they designed a hybrid cart that lifted up the horses when the combustion engine was enabled?"

 

[Michael Clark]

Good points. I suppose if both Canon and Nikon were to quit developing DSLRs that would leave users with little choice. But, they would still have to weigh their ability to get customers to migrate vs. losing customers who simply choose not to buy into the mirrorless market.

Would DSLR users, who skew older, simply hang on to their existing bodies or drop photography as a hobby altogether? I'm in my mid-sixties. I'm good for probably another generation of professional level cameras, but after I retire in a couple of years, and quit doing any professional photography, I don't know what choices I will make; and I'm a serious GAS addict.

Certainly there would be some potential 5DV buyers who, if they don't have that option, choose instead to keep their money in their wallet or spend it in other ways.

Of course, you are correct in that a lot depends on how good the improved EVF is, but I'm not sure that is the only factor. I come down squarely on the side of Canon wanting to hedge their bets. Especially because the roadmap is pretty clear and the marginal improvements likely to show up in a 5DV already exist in other models, so the incremental costs may not be that high. Only time will tell if I'm right or wrong.

I'm in the same boat with regard to how much longer I'll be doing anything that requires keeping up with the camera/lens arms race, so I might or might not jump to mirrorless anytime soon, if ever. For the most part I'm pretty happy with what I've currently got. But honestly, if I don't spend the money needed to buy an R5, I'll probably spend that same money on EF lenses... so Canon gets my money either way. They probably know this about most shooters who will choose to stay behind in the EF ecosystem.

 

[Michael Clark]

And there's more to the e-shutter than speed; Anyone who's clicked away on a DLSR at a quiet event only to receive glares from people over the noise will appreciate it.

With the mirror locked up in LV (DSLR) or with mirrorless mechanical shutters the sound is much less intrusive than when a mirror is cycling between each frame. Not that I made any comment regarding comparative noise between mechanical and electronic shutters, only about their relative transit times across the sensor.

On the technical stuff, keep in mind all these read modes have different reading/binning/bit depths. The 4K120 is not reading 45mp x 14 bit x 120fps, for instance: It's going to be a binned 10 bit read. The 8K raw (35mp DCI crop x 12 bit x 30) is probably right at the limit for this bad boy.

Edit: Related if anyone has seen an example of a full list of video and stills modes, with bitrates and sampling techniques, I'd love to see it. DPReview came close but was missing bitrates and stills modes. I expect there are a whole boatloads of asterisks. Will probably need to wait for the white paper or manual.

How many bits the sensor readout is coded into doesn't happen until the DAC and doesn't affect the sensor analog readout speed. As for binning, every photosite must be read individually before binning, which is generally done in the main image processor after demosaicing which, again, has nothing to do with sensor readout speed. Line skipping does allow some lines to not be read, but when cropping the center of the frame, all lines that contribute any photosites to the image must be fully read from one side to the other including the parts on either end not used in the cropped image.