What’s next from Canon?

All of what you write here is

All good points.

It is really really difficult to analyze/generalize/offer opinions about camera usage in the USA, except that, as you say, cellphone camera sensors and the software that drives them have greatly improved....and supply 'good-enough' snapshots for most people.

I've offered variations of the following opinion here on CR previously:

...with family (and extended family), I've visited Disney World (Orlando) more times than I care to admit.

The last few times we visited the parks, my park-walking camera gear has included an M body and 2 EF-M lenses, occasionally with one additional EF lens and the necessary adapter--35mm F2 IS (for pix inside the attractions).

Sometimes I ask my wife to pack the 35mm F2 lens in her backpack...because the M body/lens + one extra lens + two extra batteries all fit nicely inside of a smallish bag that attaches to me via a belt-loop.

I have taken notice of the gear that other Disney visitors use--very very few full-frame bodies, a few Rebels and the analogues...and for about a decade now: phones phones phones, seemingly, at times, to the exclusion of ALL MILCs (and point-and-shoot cameras, for that matter).

I don't know how accurate a barometer Disney World is as far as camera usage in the USA is concerned...but I feel confident in guessing that more pictures are 'taken' in the Disney parks, on most days, than any other venue in the entire world.

I've always felt confident that my go-to Disney rig: an M body mated to the 11-22mm IS EF-M lens... put me in a good place as far as acquiring high-quality images and videos...while still enjoying the park. The 11-22 lens is the killer app as far as EF-M is concerned.

Other options with other manufacturers exist...many of these are much pricier solutions.

So now I read here the likely supposition that the emergin R format (including R-S) is going to result in the demise of M.

My oh my.
The last and only time I visited Disney in Florida was a few weeks after 9/11. I remember wondering if we were going to be able to even fly to America, let alone get to the theme parks. I bought a new camera specifically for the trip, an Olympus MJU 35mm zoom, because I didn’t want to lug my Minolta Dynax 7000i around the parks. Great little camera with a super sharp lens. My brother had just bought a 2mp canon ixus digital compact. But I felt at the time that digital wasn't quite there yet so chose 35mm. Compact flash storage wasn’t cheap and quite meagre (I remember he bought a second 32mb card at the airport, just in case).

To be honest, if I went on a theme park trip I would probably leave the camera at home and just use my phone. I want to enjoy the experience, and go on the rides without worrying about my camera gear. Although I’d probably kick myself after for not taking it with me!
 
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To be honest, if I went on a theme park trip I would probably leave the camera at home and just use my phone. I want to enjoy the experience, and go on the rides without worrying about my camera gear. Although I’d probably kick myself after for not taking it with me!
I’ve been to theme parks with an M-based kit, and also with my 1D X + 24-70/2.8. With the latter, I’ve gotten some great shots of the kids as we all got doused on water rides, where I wouldn’t have taken out my M or iPhone. That was some time back, and my iPhone at the time had no rated water resistance (but did have plenty of moisture sensors allowing Apple to deny repair coverage).

My current iPhone is rated for submersion so I would be fine using it on a water ride. So, on my next theme park visit (likely this summer), I’ll leave the R3 in the hotel room.
 
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The interview (CanonWatch from xitek) says M is still 30% of Canon camera sales. But the R&D is directed to R. But they are not abandoning M (even though they are).

But -- even with R&D on R, how hard would it be to take the R10 innards (from the R R&D stream) and port it to a M5mkII? Leave everything the same except the mount. (Better yet, use the R7 sensor.) If they actually do still see a market for M it would be low hanging fruit.
 
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Jethro

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With canon stating the same info across different models for use in different weather conditions makes you wonder if their cameras are any good, just copy and paste the same info from a 400 quid camera to a 5k one!! They are apologising for an R6 that can't handle someone's lifestyle. She proper put canon on the spot yesterday, calling their website misleading. Pitty canons do use someone like her, the camera would be nuc proof. Personally would rather have a 20 mp camera that was tough than something full of gimmicks to impress a Facebook group.
I genuinely have no idea what any of this is meant to be about. But, really, welcome to the site, and I'm sure you'll provide a lot more insightful and cogent comments over the many years you stay.
 
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The interview (CanonWatch from xitek) says M is still 30% of Canon camera sales. But the R&D is directed to R. But they are not abandoning M (even though they are).

But -- even with R&D on R, how hard would it be to take the R10 innards (from the R R&D stream) and port it to a M5mkII? Leave everything the same except the mount. (Better yet, use the R7 sensor.) If they actually do still see a market for M it would be low hanging fruit.
In Australia the M6 mkII is now discontinued and many places have no stock left, I'm thinking the M6/M5 market has now been replaced with the R10 due to the similar price. I think they will keep the M50 and maybe the M200 models for a while since they offer a more affordable price point then the R10. But if they offer a crop R100 in the future at a similar price point to the M50 then I'm not sure how much longer the M series will last.

Another thought I have is maybe they are reusing that M6 MkII sensor and making some adjustments to say it is a new sensor for the R7.
 
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The interview (CanonWatch from xitek) says M is still 30% of Canon camera sales. But the R&D is directed to R. But they are not abandoning M (even though they are).

But -- even with R&D on R, how hard would it be to take the R10 innards (from the R R&D stream) and port it to a M5mkII? Leave everything the same except the mount. (Better yet, use the R7 sensor.) If they actually do still see a market for M it would be low hanging fruit.
Alternatively, considering the rf-s lenses appear to be based upon ef-m designs and the rf-s roadmap pretty much replicates the current ef-m line up, it’s feasible that canon could focus their valuable r&d and develop lenses for both mounts simultaneously. Or at least develop for rf-s and retool for ef-m.
 
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AlanF

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The interview (CanonWatch from xitek) says M is still 30% of Canon camera sales. But the R&D is directed to R. But they are not abandoning M (even though they are).

But -- even with R&D on R, how hard would it be to take the R10 innards (from the R R&D stream) and port it to a M5mkII? Leave everything the same except the mount. (Better yet, use the R7 sensor.) If they actually do still see a market for M it would be low hanging fruit.
The 32 Mpx R7 sensor came from the M6II. So, just put a DigicX processor in the M6II and that’s your M6III.
 
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entoman

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I'm kind of thinking I'll lose patience and end up with an R5II if they can improve battery life - I really wish they'd move on from LP-E6 series batteries but with the R7 taking the LP-E6N, my bet is that will remain the standard for the next while regardless.
I don't think the batteries are the issue. The cause of poor battery life is more likely to be the relatively poor efficiency of the camera's electronics (as compared with Sony).

As a stills-only shooter, I'd love to see a R5 Mkii, with the AF system from the R3, exposure bracketing with electronic shutter, less EVF lag at startup, a new 45MP sensor with better DR and better high ISO performance, low/medium/high burst speeds with electronic shutter, and with the same body and control design.

The R7 looks to be a great camera for people who only want one body, but it doesn't make a good backup to the R5, as the controls on the rear of the camera are completely different and would cause muscle-memory issues when switching back and forth from one body to the other. A great pity, and an opportunity missed by Canon, as I think most of us were hoping the R7 would be based on the excellent R6 body...
 
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I am, the R6 we use is only fit for mid-summer days, I won't be on here and praise canon when something that has cost £2500 has broken down because it can't handle the Uk's cold weather. I would state what is excellent with a Canon camera if it worked. Why I commented and said would like a camera that is rough and ready for real-life conditions.
You mentioned Canon's copy/paste of the information on 'weather sealing'. I can't speak for the R6, but I have the EOS R and it handles cold weather just fine. The images I posted in this thread on waterfalls were taken around Whistler, BC on a sub-zero day where I was outside for several hours (and not too cold thanks to the effort of snowshoeing up trails to various frozen waterfalls). Here's one example:

RainbowFalls.jpg

As for moisture, Imaging Resource tested the EOS R and found it to withstand >30 minutes of use in the equivalent of heavy rain.

I've used my 1D X in downpours and in very cold conditions (below 0 °F / –18 °C). The latter was while shooting raptors in the New England winter, and that's something I'm worried about with my R3. At that temperature, the rear LCD of my 1D X stopped working, but the OVF (including the transmissive LCD inside) was fine. I'm not sure how the R3 will perform in similar conditions – I may be sorely missing the OVF at that point.
 
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john1970

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I don't think the batteries are the issue. The cause of poor battery life is more likely to be the relatively poor efficiency of the camera's electronics (as compared with Sony).

As a stills-only shooter, I'd love to see a R5 Mkii, with the AF system from the R3, exposure bracketing with electronic shutter, less EVF lag at startup, a new 45MP sensor with better DR and better high ISO performance, low/medium/high burst speeds with electronic shutter, and with the same body and control design.

The R7 looks to be a great camera for people who only want one body, but it doesn't make a good backup to the R5, as the controls on the rear of the camera are completely different and would cause muscle-memory issues when switching back and forth from one body to the other. A great pity, and an opportunity missed by Canon, as I think most of us were hoping the R7 would be based on the excellent R6 body...
Likely will we get a R5 Mk2 after a R1 and would suspect that some of the R1 technology might trickle down a bit. Be patient. A R1 is likely coming in 2023 and I suspect a R5 Mk2 in 2024.
 
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entoman

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Likely will we get a R5 Mk2 after a R1 and would suspect that some of the R1 technology might trickle down a bit. Be patient. A R1 is likely coming in 2023 and I suspect a R5 Mk2 in 2024.
I think we'll see a R5 Mkii sometime in 2023. The sooner the better as far as I'm concerned - I need a backup RF-mount body, and one that has the same ergonomics and MP as the R5. I don't want to go out and buy another R5, only to find that a few months later an even better Mkii version is launched.

As for the R7 - I was very much hoping it would be based on the R5/R6 body. If that had been the case, I would have been happy to pay the same as an R6 for it, as is ideally specified as a birding camera. The specs, and from what I've read, the performance too, of the R7 are just what I wanted, but the completely different back-of-camera control layout (and lack of a third control dial) have completely put me off.
 
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john1970

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I think we'll see a R5 Mkii sometime in 2023. The sooner the better as far as I'm concerned - I need a backup RF-mount body, and one that has the same ergonomics and MP as the R5. I don't want to go out and buy another R5, only to find that a few months later an even better Mkii version is launched.

As for the R7 - I was very much hoping it would be based on the R5/R6 body. If that had been the case, I would have been happy to pay the same as an R6 for it, as is ideally specified as a birding camera. The specs, and from what I've read, the performance too, of the R7 are just what I wanted, but the completely different back-of-camera control layout (and lack of a third control dial) have completely put me off.
You might be correct or we could both be wrong. Philosophically I just predict Canon releasing all 1st generation R cameras (R5, R6, R7, R1) prior to releasing Mk2 versions. The next couple of years is going to be interesting....
 
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I am, the R6 we use is only fit for mid-summer days, I won't be on here and praise canon when something that has cost £2500 has broken down because it can't handle the Uk's cold weather. I would state what is excellent with a Canon camera if it worked. Why I commented and said would like a camera that is rough and ready for real-life conditions. I really can't say if the R6 is any good until I hear from canon next week if the camera was in fact faulty when bought new. I will get my friend to join here, she will go into detail about what's good and bad about the R6, I just borrow it but it's a very frustrating camera due to its issues, anyway I'm just the messenger mate. I have no in-depth knowledge about cameras or canon, I use a very old Nikon d60 which I haven't used for 7 years, I concentrate on doing my slides nowadays.

I give canon one thing, their UK main service for warranty repairs has been very helpful. they are very unhappy that one of their cameras isn't allowing its owner to create.
Based on info from your other thread, you have experienced very severe difficulties with your R6. As was mentioned on that thread, your's seems to be an isolated incident - one camera out of thousands that has had these issues.

Yet you persist in making generalizations about the R6 (my bold above) and Canon cameras. Canon cameras - depending on their tier (and cost) - all have different levels of weather resistance. It is unfortunate that your camera has been such a failure, but by refusing to understand that your's is an isolated incident, you are just making yourself out to be a bitter consumer hell bent on bashing Canon.
 
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unfocused

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I think we'll see a R5 Mkii sometime in 2023…
Standard refresh cycle for Canon is four years. I expect an R5 II in 2024.
The specs, and from what I've read, the performance too, of the R7 are just what I wanted, but the completely different back-of-camera control layout (and lack of a third control dial) have completely put me off.

You can’t always get what you want, but if you try you can get what you need. I suspect the R7 will meet the needs of many photographers. If the specs and performance are what you want, learning a slightly different configuration shouldn’t be an insurmountable obstacle.
 
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entoman

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You can’t always get what you want, but if you try you can get what you need. I suspect the R7 will meet the needs of many photographers. If the specs and performance are what you want, learning a slightly different configuration shouldn’t be an insurmountable obstacle.
It's not just a case of learning a different configuration, it's about switching back and forth between 2 cameras with very different back-plate controls. Using an R6 alongside an R5 is dead easy, as the differences between them are very minor. Using an R7 alongside an R5 is almost like switching back and forth between 2 different brands.

I appreciate that adding certain features can necessitate a rearrangement of buttons and dials, but I regard inconsistency as generally undesirable, as it causes muscle-memory issues when using multiple bodies. In the case of the R7, none of the control changes were necessary. IMO it would have been far more sensible (and cheaper for Canon, due to common parts) to have used the R6 as the basis for the R7 design.

It all seems to be about experimentation. Sometimes it works (as in the case of the 1Dxiii "AF smart controller"), sometimes it doesn't (most people strongly disliked the swipe bar on the R). The efficiency and ergonomics of the "dial around the joystick" on the R7 will be judged good or bad by users in months to come, but it comes at the expense of losing a vital third dial.

A well designed camera IMO should have the 3 main parameters (aperture, shutter, ISO) all accessible by dial, without a need to press a button first. Ideally a 4th dial should also be available to access exposure compensation, again without having to press a button. The R7 has only 2 dials that offer direct control. Sure, most RF lenses have a control ring that can be used as a third dial, but the position of the control ring can be at the front, middle or back of the lens according to model, creating yet more inconsistency and muscle-memory issues.

There will of course be some people who have the lucky ability to be able to switch instantaneously back and forth between vastly different brands, models and/or formats. I'm not one of them. I want to be able to switch back and forth between bodies without constantly having to remind myself where a particular control is, or what the function of that control is.
 
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unfocused

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It's not just a case of learning a different configuration, it's about switching back and forth between 2 cameras with very different back-plate controls…
I guess it’s just different perspectives. I’ve used so many different Canon cameras and found that once I become familiar with the controls it’s not hard to switch back and forth. If the R7 has what I want (and I don’t know that it does) I’m not going to deny myself while I wait around for something slightly better.
It all seems to be about experimentation. Sometimes it works (as in the case of the 1Dxiii "AF smart controller"), sometimes it doesn't (most people strongly disliked the swipe bar on the R)…
I agree with that. The R series is still new and Canon seems to still be figuring out the best configurations. They are making minor changes and seem to be learning from their mistakes. That’s a good thing and, yes, it often creates the sense that we are all beta testers. The 1D XIII and R3 smart controllers by the way are not all that great in my opinion. Same with eye control. But even though they aren’t perfect they don’t make the cameras unusable. I guess I figure that at my age (69) waiting four years for the next iteration is a crap shoot that I’d rather not take.
 
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AlanF

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It's not just a case of learning a different configuration, it's about switching back and forth between 2 cameras with very different back-plate controls. Using an R6 alongside an R5 is dead easy, as the differences between them are very minor. Using an R7 alongside an R5 is almost like switching back and forth between 2 different brands.

I appreciate that adding certain features can necessitate a rearrangement of buttons and dials, but I regard inconsistency as generally undesirable, as it causes muscle-memory issues when using multiple bodies. In the case of the R7, none of the control changes were necessary. IMO it would have been far more sensible (and cheaper for Canon, due to common parts) to have used the R6 as the basis for the R7 design.

It all seems to be about experimentation. Sometimes it works (as in the case of the 1Dxiii "AF smart controller"), sometimes it doesn't (most people strongly disliked the swipe bar on the R). The efficiency and ergonomics of the "dial around the joystick" on the R7 will be judged good or bad by users in months to come, but it comes at the expense of losing a vital third dial.

A well designed camera IMO should have the 3 main parameters (aperture, shutter, ISO) all accessible by dial, without a need to press a button first. Ideally a 4th dial should also be available to access exposure compensation, again without having to press a button. The R7 has only 2 dials that offer direct control. Sure, most RF lenses have a control ring that can be used as a third dial, but the position of the control ring can be at the front, middle or back of the lens according to model, creating yet more inconsistency and muscle-memory issues.

There will of course be some people who have the lucky ability to be able to switch instantaneously back and forth between vastly different brands, models and/or formats. I'm not one of them. I want to be able to switch back and forth between bodies without constantly having to remind myself where a particular control is, or what the function of that control is.
It is indeed much easier to have all cameras with same controls, and I like that too. You as an entomology man know that in an unchanging environment it’s best to have a set of genes that are best fitted to it but in a changing environment it’s survival of the most adaptable.
 
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entoman

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I guess it’s just different perspectives. I’ve used so many different Canon cameras and found that once I become familiar with the controls it’s not hard to switch back and forth. If the R7 has what I want (and I don’t know that it does) I’m not going to deny myself while I wait around for something slightly better.

I agree with that. The R series is still new and Canon seems to still be figuring out the best configurations. They are making minor changes and seem to be learning from their mistakes. That’s a good thing and, yes, it often creates the sense that we are all beta testers. The 1D XIII and R3 smart controllers by the way are not all that great in my opinion. Same with eye control. But even though they aren’t perfect they don’t make the cameras unusable. I guess I figure that at my age (69) waiting four years for the next iteration is a crap shoot that I’d rather not take.
Yes, some people can switch back and forth between differently configured cameras with relative ease. I wish I could, but I can't, and at 71 I'm unlikely to be able to change that. It took me quite a while to adapt to my R5 after having used 5D/6D/7D series DSLRs for donkey's years!

I know what you mean about not wanting to wait for the next iteration. A friend of mine intends to get the R7 to use alongside his R6, so I'll have the opportunity to play with it and possibly re-assess my views.

I need a second RF body as backup, and I don't like the restriction of only having 2 control dials on the R7, as I tend to change all 4 parameters (aperture, shutter, ISO, compensation) frequently and I don't like the "press a button and twiddle a dial" method of operation. So it looks like I'll be getting a second R5, if and when I can afford it.
 
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john1970

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I was pleasantly surprised to see that Canon allows for 15 fps with electronic shutter, but the buffer was still maybe a maximum of 3-4 sec at 15 fps. Honestly, for the price if a vertical grip was available I might have purchased one. However no vertical grip is a no go for me. Why Canon decided against a vertical grip?
 
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