What is the Basis of your opinion of APS-H?

[wickidwombat]

I'm genuinely interested to find out how many people that hate APS-H have actually used a camera with it or if it's just opinion based on specs and theory. Be honest people. I resisted the urge to put lots of sarcastic silly options in there these 4 options cover every one with an opinion of the sensor format

 

[RLPhoto]

APS-H is better that APS-C. I will always pick the largest format that i'm willing to live with.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

Having had a 1D MK I*I, MK III, and now MK IV, I found that its very good, a compromise between APS-C and FF. However, I use FF most of the time, so that relegates APS-H to cases where the crop factor is a benefit. Since it comes in a 1 series body, thats a big part of the benefit, faster AF and more FPS.

 

[jpk]

The reason I feel APS-H is a dead end format is because it lies between the very popular, multi featured, multi tiered and affordable ASP-C sensored bodies and lower end FF bodies. The 1.6 crop cameras are great for the consumer and semi pro/pro market as I stated before. The FF's for the pros and semi pros or the well heeled amatuer.

The price differential between the highest end ASP-C body ( 7D @ $1700.00) and the lowest FF (5D MkII @ $2200.00) right now leaves a price structure window of $500.00 between the two. So to me, it seems that if I want a FF camera, the 5D MkII is not that much more $$$ than the 1.6 crop 7D. Where will the 1.3 crop sensor fit in such a tight price spread between FF and 1.6 and offer a real value of performance over the 5D MkII? Why would it even be worth it from Canon's standpoint to develope a whole new line of bodies with a sensor that is neither fish nor fowl to fit in such a small $$$ window.

If I could afford a new 7D I could save a few more bucks and get a genuine FF body and not just a slightly larger sensor than the 7D with a little less noise. Heck, with the new firmware for the 7D coming out you can shoot 25 frames before the buffer fills. Canon would have to jam pack the APS-H body with so many features besides the sensor just to make it attractive. Then that, it might draw buyers away from other products. I just don't think you can slice and dice the money that finely with products that can differenciate itself between the current 7D and 5D MkII or whatever bodies that will eventually occuply those price places.
Now, Canon may go ahead and do it but I just think there's not a lot of roon at the table in that price range to make it worth while.

 

[paul13walnut5]

I used to love APS-H on my EOS IX. But I was always aware that full frame was better.

I tried to buy some APS film recently and was let down.

Does this count?

 

[Jettatore]

I don't like the polling options, too linear/black & white/etc.. I would simply prefer FF or larger format camera's. I don't do birding photography, etc., though which ASP-H benefits, and I do have an interchangeable kit which was built around having both a FF and an ASP-C body types covering a range between 16mm and 302.4mm mostly @ f/2.8 with just a splash of f/2 (135 and 216mm only) all using only 3 lenses and a single adapter. That said, if a FF image after cropping could more often than not effectively get me the same image of an ASP-H or ASP-C , then I would prefer a different kit altogether, perhaps a kit with only one body and 3 small, light prime lenses with some obvious sacrifices in range and coverage.

I don't mind the idea of 7DII becoming ASP-H personally, it actually makes some decent sense, but before going to post for cropping possibilities it wouldn't fit/match my current kit well, which currently does include the original 7D. That said, I won't be upgrading my current kit identically. I plan to use exactly what I have for a decent time longer, possibly throwing in a flash and DIY cheap macro setup, but possibly not. If and when I do upgrade, my considerations are going to be completely different, my needs/wants and experience have developed and I would definitely put a lot of consideration on the end kit/system, much more than I had initially.

 

[paul13walnut5]

Jettatore

I don't mind the idea of 7DII becoming ASP-H personally, it actually makes some decent sense

No it doesn't.

It makes no sense at all.

You market a camera as the flagship aps-c model and then come up with a successor that uses the EF mount rather than an EF-s/EF mount. (mirror slap against EF-s rear elements, if APS-H was acceptable then why wasn't that the standard canon ran with for all its non FF DSLR cameras?)

So all the folk who bought expensive 10-22's and/or 17-55 f2.8's for their 7D's find that they either have to 'downgrade' to a rebel or 60D with pedestrian AF, or upgrade to an APS-H camera which may vignette with their lenses, or actually wreck both the lenses and the cameras.

In your logic is EF-s the next FD?

The 7D line has been established as an APS-C flagship, if there is an 7D2 or 7Dx it can only be APS-C.

Nothing else makes any sense. 1D APS-H users could only use EF lenses, which won't wreck the 5D or 1D series cameras, no matter how annoyed folk are at losing that 1.3x crop.

 

[x-vision]

Why would it even be worth it from Canon's standpoint to develope a whole new line of bodies with a sensor that is neither fish nor fowl to fit in such a small $$$ window.

+1000.

What the APS-H cheerleaders don't seem to grasp is that the APS-H format makes no sense anymore ... for Canon.

Obviously, the APS-H format has it its (small, vocal) fanbase.
From a business perspective, though, it makes zero business sense for Canon to continue the format.

Back in the days, Canon could charge $4K-$5K for the 1D-1DIV.
Not anymore - because Canon doesn't want to charge just $5K when they can charge $6-7K.
And of course they surely couldn't charge that much if the 1DX had a crop sensor.

By now there are hardly any savings from manufacturing APS-H sensors vs FF sensors.
At the same time, APS-H has the distinctive marketing disadvantage of being smaller than FF.
This intrinsic disadvantage can never be overcome – and hence APS-H cameras can never command the same prmium as similarly spec'd FF cameras.
This is the real flaw of APS-H, not its performance, lack of ultra-wides, etc..

So, those waiting for the return of the format in a cheaper body will be waiting forever.
Give it up 8).

 

[bdunbar79]

I'm with Paul on this one. If there even is a 7D Mark II or 70D, it will most certainly be an APS-C sensor. If it is truly the successor to the 7D, then it will most certainly have the same sensor. I don't know how you could arrive at any other conclusion to this. Since the 1D X supposedly merges the 1D and 1Ds lines, it is likely that APS-H is gone. Yes I love my 1D Mark IV, but not because of the sensor. It could be FF or APS-C, I'd still love it.

 

[paul13walnut5]

I'm sorry if my execution (murdering) of the Queens English offends. I genuinely can't think of another way to put the points I made. This may be down to a lack of intellect on my part, or the angry chippy scottish gene (I also have red hair) however any 'assumption of accusatory tone' is down to you, and that I cannot control how the message is interpreted. I think you were wrong and I think I make that clear in typically Scottish concise terms. I don't know what I am assumed to have accused you of? Please elucidate me.

We agree that, in fact, an APS-H camera branded as a 7D makes no sense?

 

[distant.star]

.

Beg pardon, but I can muster no level of emotion when it comes to inanimate objects. I don't like or love or hate or care in any way about an APS-H sensor. And I'll bet the people at Canon will say the same thing.

I've repeatedly said there will be no more Canon EOS DSLR cameras using the APS-H sensor. It appears to me all the discussion on this board suggesting it would be good for Canon to use that sensor again is based solely on the personal desires of users. The simple and blatantly plain reality is that Canon no longer has any need for the APS-H sensor. There was a time when their EOS DSLR line was in some development flux and the H provided something useful. That is no longer the case, and Canon is happy to unburden itself from all the costs and demands of an entire product line.

Canon is in the business of providing performance. The full-frame and APS-C sensors have now come to a place where they can provide all the performance Canon needs to offer the marketplace. The development of somewhat better sensor technology, better and faster computer control, AF, memory systems, etc. have all contributed to this -- and in so have obviated the need for another line of sensor. It's good business sense for Canon to abandon the H sensor, along with all its concomitant costs -- and those costs are many.

It's probably fun for a lot of folks to pretend to be Canon product management and to fantasize about what could be done with those resources. None of that, however, factors in the realities of running a large complex business in a viciously competitive marketplace chockablock with uncertainties and the vagaries of newly developing technologies.

Anyway, big bands are definitely NOT coming back!!

 

[paul13walnut5]

In terms of my language being absolutist and assured, leaving 'no room for wiggle' may I assert the following:

Lens mount specifications are fixed. No grey areas.

Lens image circle coverage specifications, as of today and of the past are fixed. No grey areas. In context, EF-s lenses were designed for an APS-C sensor, not an APS-H sensor.

The 7D series (as distinct from the FF 1Ds 5D, as distinct from the APS-H 1D series) has been marketed as an APS-C / EF-s flagship.

For me these factual parameters are immutable, if you perceive that as being offensive, then again, I cannot -with any sincerity- apologise, I do not see how my use of the shared adopted language is in this instance deficient or offensive.

In terms of my use of language, perhaps I could dress it up in some other way, but that would take more words, more effort, more mental dexterity. In short why bother?

The best constructive critique I can make is to open up your use of this foul language a bit for more possibilities to give the other side some breathing room, although admittedly such an effort will mostly be in vein sooner or later.

We are tied by the discourse of our language. Maybe it's my fault. Maybe it's your fault. Maybe it's neither, maybe it's both.

But in a technical arena, I think you are wrong. And if you are offended by that, then you have lived a very sheltered life.

 

[distant.star]

.

Amazing someone would attack the English language as crude and a form of mental illness simply because someone disagreed with him. Makes me think of at least part of a famous quote from a revered writer of the English language....

"...full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

I fear a thousand distinguished writers in the English language over 500 years would disagree with your assessment. As will many thousands of learned professors in the English departments of Universities all over the world today.

Just as with photography, an inability to use the tool does not condemn the tool.

 

[paul13walnut5]

ok, I'll indulge you, against my better judgement and the further offence my use of this language -of which my particular use is judged to be "no poorer than most"- may cause.

If Canon were to introduce a 70D camera I would expect that it would follow the established x0D lineage going back to the D30 with the APS-C sensor, and the 20D with the dual EF-s / EF lens mount.

Logically, commercially.. I don't think Canon would break with that tradition.

You are entitled to form your own opinion, and I will not be offended.

I don't know what to say other than, welcome to English and war.

Now that is very aggressive. I'm not offended, or even intimidated, just observing that you are being very aggressive.

It rather puts your following comment in context:

I try, and often fail miserably, to avoid huge forum wars, which happen despite the best of intentions.

 

[briansquibb]

Jettatore

I don't mind the idea of 7DII becoming ASP-H personally, it actually makes some decent sense

No it doesn't.

It makes no sense at all.

You market a camera as the flagship aps-c model and then come up with a successor that uses the EF mount rather than an EF-s/EF mount. (mirror slap against EF-s rear elements, if APS-H was acceptable then why wasn't that the standard canon ran with for all its non FF DSLR cameras?)

So all the folk who bought expensive 10-22's and/or 17-55 f2.8's for their 7D's find that they either have to 'downgrade' to a rebel or 60D with pedestrian AF, or upgrade to an APS-H camera which may vignette with their lenses, or actually wreck both the lenses and the cameras.

In your logic is EF-s the next FD?

The 7D line has been established as an APS-C flagship, if there is an 7D2 or 7Dx it can only be APS-C.

Nothing else makes any sense. 1D APS-H users could only use EF lenses, which won't wreck the 5D or 1D series cameras, no matter how annoyed folk are at losing that 1.3x crop.

The 7D upgrqade will be the 70D

APS-C is the next FD - it will end up in the P&S, EVILs etc - what is the logic of building a flagship with a sensor that will whither away?

Canon are giving us a way to upgrade with a product that will be better than the 1.5 crop Nikons etc. I makes more sense to me not to replace the also unique 1.6 small sensored DLSR that soon will be commonplace in every cheap digital camera available for less than $500. It would seem madness to try to convince the users that this new $2000 DSLR might be better than a $300 P&S with the same sensor - that would no doubt bring shrieks of "Canon is ripping us off again with over priced products when we can have a ff Nikon for less"

There is a lot of marketing sense as well as technical sense in having a larger sensor that was in the flagship DSLR now available at the same price point as the previous flagship small sensored DSLR.

 

[Jettatore]

IRT: paul13walnut5

The leaf is green.
This leaf appears green to me.
This leaf appears red when I view it under an electron microscope.

"I demand that it be noted, that the leaf is green is an outright lie and any such sentiment should be punishable by death via the guillotine" (which guillotine, we have five of them sire, silence off to the guillotine with you.)

 

[paul13walnut5]

@briansquibb

There is a lot of marketing sense as well as technical sense in having a larger sensor that was in the flagship DSLR now available at the same price point as the previous flagship small sensored DSLR.

So on that basis why not scrap the EF mount and 135 format derived FF sensor altogether and trounce Nikon completely with a new lens mount Canon MF camera?

Every rebel so far has been the best selling DSLR of it's generation. This means that there are actually more EF/EF-s APS-C format cameras currently in use than any other lens-mount or sensor format combination.

Although this is a thread about APS-H, in response to your point... thats just bonkers.

Nikon rate smaller sensors enough to launch the J system, M43 seems to be enjoying a life of it's own, albeit in a different market segment. I'm not saying that these systems are ideal, or indeed that APS-C is ideal, but it is a widely accepted rough standard (for Nikon, for Pentax, for Sony and for the dark horse - Samsung!) a bigger sensor does mean a bigger body, and if you want a bright lens, it also means bigger lenses.

 

[briansquibb]

@briansquibb

There is a lot of marketing sense as well as technical sense in having a larger sensor that was in the flagship DSLR now available at the same price point as the previous flagship small sensored DSLR.

So on that basis why not scrap the EF mount and 135 format derived FF sensor altogether and trounce Nikon completely with a new lens mount Canon MF camera?

Every rebel so far has been the best selling DSLR of it's generation. This means that there are actually more EF/EF-s APS-C format cameras currently in use than any other lens-mount or sensor format combination.

Although this is a thread about APS-H, in response to your point... thats just bonkers.

Nikon rate smaller sensors enough to launch the J system, M43 seems to be enjoying a life of it's own, albeit in a different market segment. I'm not saying that these systems are ideal, or indeed that APS-C is ideal, but it is a widely accepted rough standard (for Nikon, for Pentax, for Sony and for the dark horse - Samsung!) a bigger sensor does mean a bigger body, and if you want a bright lens, it also means bigger lenses.

Are you saying that if you were presented with 2 identically sized and priced camera bodies, one of which gave significantly better performance, IQ and low light - that you would choose the inferior one??

We are not talking short term of replacing APS-C - we are talking of replacing the 7D "the flagship APS-C" with something significantly better.

Are you also saying that a same price level Rebel with APS-H would not sell? There would be a huge rush as existing Rebel users upgraded plus new to Canon users eager to get the camera that introduced a quantum leap in DLSR quality and performance

PS I do not expect the EF to last forever and MF might well be the way ahead, but we would have to go throught the FF phase first. The 1D4 is an excellent camera, but the best ff are better.

 

[paul13walnut5]

Are you saying that if you were presented with 2 identically sized and priced camera bodies, one of which gave significantly better performance, IQ and low light - that you would choose the inferior one??

Are you saying such an option exsists at the time of writing? If so I would weigh up the pro's and cons of the lenses I already have and the potential benefit. There is more to a camera system than a camera body or sensor, not least in terms of financial exposure.

We are not talking short term of replacing APS-C - we are talking of replacing the 7D "the flagship APS-C" with something significantly better.

With a dual EF / EF-s mount? with backwards compatibility? Those already wanting an upgrade have the established FF option. The one unique thing about Canons legacy APS-H cameras was the speed.

What market would an APS-H EF mount camera serve that isn't already catered for? Annoyed 1D4 users (who's cameras should still function as when bought) They can always crop to get in closer (the jump from 16mp to 18mp affords some cropping if pixel parity is really all that important)

Are you also saying that a same price level Rebel with APS-H would not sell? There would be a huge rush as existing Rebel users upgraded plus new to Canon users eager to get the camera that introduced a quantum leap in DLSR quality and performance

It wouldn't sell to existing EF-s lens users, and if specification was commensurate with rebel market placement then it wouldn't sell to 60D, 7D, 5D3 or 1D users.

 

[briansquibb]

The one unique thing about Canons legacy APS-H cameras was the speed.

I guess you have little experience of the 1D4 if you think that was the major strength

The 7D has speed - but as a camera it is in a lower league for everything

Just remember that the 1D4 was the last in a long line of top cameras, whereas the 7D was the first and only APS-C sports camera. Where are the sports EF-S lens to support a sports camera? Think hard - because there are none that I can remember. There is only one fast EF-S lens too, the 17-55. So for all the huff and puff from the APS-C owners there are no EF-S lens that support a sports camera.

So by doing a minor upgrade to the 7D and renaming it the 70D Canon are protecting the investment of the 7D owners. Just that for an upgrade they adding an additional, sports orientated proven APS-H body rather than the more expensive ff option

I am at loss why there is such resistance and angst to move on with the times