What will Canon bring to the table with the EOS R1?

usern4cr

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While I think the Alpha 1 specs are amazing I think Sony dropped the ball with the form factor. They should have enlarged the body so that it it could house two batteries like Canon and Nikon does. I just think it might be too much to ask someone to mate that small body onto a 600mm f4 lens and hand hold it. The ergonomics would be horrible. Yes you can buy the optional battery grip to complete the system, but I think forcing professionals to do that was a bad move. But we'll see I guess.

Canon WILL develop the R1 with a built in grip as per usual of their professional level bodies and use the extra space for cooling the video.
For the cost, size & weight of having an embedded bottom dual grip in every R1, imagine if Canon saved all that and instead put it towards a square sensor so that you did not have to rotate the camera anymore? They could size the square sensor to fit the existing image circle (ok, which I agree is not 100% ideal) for consumer cameras. They could also allow their top end R1 camera to take the full size FF shot in both orientations by designing a 36 x 36 mm chip in place of the 36 x 24 one. Yes it would be very expensive to do this (and we all know it won't happen) but it is something that could happen. You would get a better ergonomic R1 with a (probably) slightly smaller & lighter body (and more expensive initally). But imagine if they later came out with a few $$$ pro lenses to fit the larger 36 x 36 sensor image circle - That'd be awesome (and well, really expensive, but still awesome!). And some of their lenses are said to have an unusually large image circle so that they might even fit the larger image circle already!
 
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Codebunny

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Sep 5, 2018
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For the cost, size & weight of having an embedded bottom dual grip in every R1, imagine if Canon saved all that and instead put it towards a square sensor so that you did not have to rotate the camera anymore? They could size the square sensor to fit the existing image circle (ok, which I agree is not 100% ideal) for consumer cameras. They could also allow their top end R1 camera to take the full size FF shot in both orientations by designing a 36 x 36 mm chip in place of the 36 x 24 one. Yes it would be very expensive to do this (and we all know it won't happen) but it is something that could happen. You would get a better ergonomic R1 with a (probably) slightly smaller & lighter body (and more expensive initally). But imagine if they later came out with a few $$$ pro lenses to fit the larger 36 x 36 sensor image circle - That'd be awesome (and well, really expensive, but still awesome!). And some of their lenses are said to have an unusually large image circle so that they might even fit the larger image circle already!

A square sensor would be vastly more expensive to produce. Not only does it need more wafers to make the same number of sensors, but it would require a bigger IBIS, faster processor, re-engineered mechanical shutter, bigger square view finder....

You create all kinds of engineering problems and increase the price of the camera by many times to create something that produces a undesirable image ratio that has to be cropped in post. A flick switch on the side that just tells the IBIS system to rotate the sensor would be cheeper and faster, but even then, just go with the gripped body so you can get those lovely huge batteries in the bloody thing.
 

usern4cr

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A square sensor would be vastly more expensive to produce. Not only does it need more wafers to make the same number of sensors, but it would require a bigger IBIS, faster processor, re-engineered mechanical shutter, bigger square view finder....

You create all kinds of engineering problems and increase the price of the camera by many times to create something that produces a undesirable image ratio that has to be cropped in post. A flick switch on the side that just tells the IBIS system to rotate the sensor would be cheeper and faster, but even then, just go with the gripped body so you can get those lovely huge batteries in the bloody thing.
Well, I did say it would be much more expensive, and that I don't see anyone doing it.

If you think that a mechanical rotation of the normal IBIS sensor would be cheaper than what I suggested, you may be right. Maybe it's something they should considered (or even has been considered by them and quickly shot down). Either way, it's something to talk about but I don't see anyone doing either of them (unfortunately).

Cheers!
 

HarryFilm

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Jun 6, 2016
705
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Doesn't seem necessary , especially as the R1 is probably stills focused (R5 doesn't overheat with stills) and will have 2 processors and 2 CF express slots like 1DXiii and large body . I think it will have any overheating issues at all.

Also stainless steel is a very poor heat conductor compared with aluminium , copper or even magnesium which would make much effective heatsinks.

Even just leaving the rear of the magnesium body exposed (behind the flippy screen) would help heat dissipation enormously but again unnecessary I think

--

The poor Heat Transfer of high-corrosion resistant Stainless Steel (i.e. 360L series) IS THE WHOLE POINT!

It's NOT supposed to transfer heat WELL but rather at a highly-specific thermodynamically-modeled rate of X-number of Joules per Second!

You need a specific GRADE of stainless steel for its STRENGTH and its Anti-corrosion ability in order for it to be used as a great base-plate mount material AND that it allows the transfer of heat at a WELL-REGULATED rate.

It is INSIDE the camera where magnesium, aluminum and copper blocks will be used to initially ABSORB HEAT and a heat pipe will TRANSFER that heat out to a slower acting ceramic or composite heat sink block and outwards to atmosphere via a metallic plate or finned metal style of heat dissipation system. Look at modern desktop computer GPU graphics cards and their array of heat sinks/heat pipes for inspiration as to what is NEEDED to cool the 300+ watts being used by high end graphics cards!

The Canon R5 is only doing 20 to 40 watts max! So I am pretty sure that they can figure out HOW to use the SAME type of technology in order to move the heat away from the camera easy enough!

V
 
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HarryFilm

EOS RP
Jun 6, 2016
705
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It seems you got fooled as well with their 50MP x 30FPS nonsense, it’s actually not faster then a R5, its marketing garbage.
At 30FPS it can’t shoot uncompressed raw. It can only at 20fps. And mech shutter is only good up to 10fps. You want 30FPS? It has to be compressed raw or heif or jpg.

shooting uncompressed RAW
R5: 12FPS mech, 20FPS elec
A1: 10 FPS mech, 20FPS elec.

this is pretty much a R5 for $2800 more, and crappy ergonomics, no thanks! And canon hasnt even released their flagship.


RAW is a misnomer! It's almost ALWAYS RLE (Run-Length Encoded) and using a WinZIP-like lossless LZW compression algorithm to get you ABOUT 2:1 compression. And whenever you see 2:1, 3:1, 4:1 or 5:1 RAW as the output file format, it usually means they are throwing away or moving X-number of low-order bits on every 2nd or 3rd pixel sample or at pixels with similar luminance values and THEN RLE/LZW compressing that bitmap to get a form of compressed RAW which is actually kinda like printer-based "dithering" and "error diffusion" but used in a compression-specific manner rather than for display.

V
 
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HarryFilm

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Jun 6, 2016
705
166
I didn't get that idea from anywhere else but in my noggin'. It's just obvious to me. It's not really rocket science, anyone could have thought of it.
If you're interested, I'll send my background directly to you, if it makes any difference (it doesn't need to be here).

If you really mean what you posted, feel free to contact me directly. In the meantime, keep up your posts - whether intricate fact or fantasy (preferably both as long as they're hilarious :ROFLMAO: ) !

Sometime next week is the BIG REVEAL for the sensor tech we will be OPEN SOURCING !!!!! aka IT'S FREE !!!!! Keep looking all week and gasp with PURE AWE at what is disclosed and exposed!


V

....and it ain't my naked butt!

V
 
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Chig

Birds in Flight Nutter
Jul 26, 2020
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Interesting statement : "Yesterday Sony set the gear world ablaze with the Sony Alpha a1, their new flagship full-frame mirrorless camera."

Really ?
  • The Alpha 1 is priced like the 1D series and has similar specs to the much cheaper R5 but with typical woeful Sony ergonomics , rubbish UI and prosumer build quality but better dynamic range than Canon's cameras so far.
  • Sony's A9ii is much closer to the 1D series with fantastic AF , Dynamic range , etc (but still with bad ergonomics and UI) but more competitive pricing. A new A9iii would be Sony's pro flagship if they make one.
The new Canon professional flagship R1 is likely to have :
  • similar or a bit higher pricing to 1DXiii
  • sensible resolution of about 20-24mp (pros don't need or want huge mp to cripple their workflow)
  • a mainly stills focus but with decent video
  • similar form factor and build quality to 1D series but a bit lighter
  • 20+ fps mechanical shutter
  • 25-30 fps electronic shutter
  • maybe global shutter but I doubt it
  • faster new twin processors than the 1DXiii
  • clever new software based features - perhaps in camera focus stacking for example
  • hopefully better dynamic range
  • maybe a square sensor but unlikely
 
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Chig

Birds in Flight Nutter
Jul 26, 2020
144
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--

The poor Heat Transfer of high-corrosion resistant Stainless Steel (i.e. 360L series) IS THE WHOLE POINT!

It's NOT supposed to transfer heat WELL but rather at a highly-specific thermodynamically-modeled rate of X-number of Joules per Second!

You need a specific GRADE of stainless steel for its STRENGTH and its Anti-corrosion ability in order for it to be used as a great base-plate mount material AND that it allows the transfer of heat at a WELL-REGULATED rate.

It is INSIDE the camera where magnesium, aluminum and copper blocks will be used to initially ABSORB HEAT and a heat pipe will TRANSFER that heat out to a slower acting ceramic or composite heat sink block and outwards to atmosphere via a metallic plate or finned metal style of heat dissipation system. Look at modern desktop computer GPU graphics cards and their array of heat sinks/heat pipes for inspiration as to what is NEEDED to cool the 300+ watts being used by high end graphics cards!

The Canon R5 is only doing 20 to 40 watts max! So I am pretty sure that they can figure out HOW to use the SAME type of technology in order to move the heat away from the camera easy enough!

V
You clearly don't understand this as slowing the heat transfer has no benefits and would mean the surface will be excessively hot and the internals will get hotter too
 

VegasCameraGuy

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Jul 9, 2020
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So I can tell you right now, as much as I want a massive resolution increase over the current 1DXIII, it will prevent many photographers from buying it. Unless Canon comes out with a better alternative to cRAW and allows us to shoot in smaller, more preferred resolutions, I and many others will struggle to justify making this our $6,000+ camera in the bag.

Why?

I was one of the first photographers in "my little slice" of the publishing industry that bought the R5. Several friends waited for my results before they pulled the trigger themselves and many of them shared my same criticism - 'I don't need 45mp to cover a race/event/wedding/real estate, etc.' I was quick to identify this and purchased the R6 to partner with my R5. Weddings in particular don't benefit from 45mp, it's more of a burden than anything else. At least in motorsports photography I can use that resolution for additional flexibility for cropping, in print or advertisement...but there is zero value in a 8192 x 5464 pixel dancefloor shot or cake cutting, so I lean on the R6 after the portrait session has concluded.

This is something many of us identify as a shortcoming of the R5 and it's rather upsetting. I hope that Canon reconsiders the importance of cRAW and can bring back an mRAW format that keeps things in the 12-15 and 20-26mp sweet spots. The argument of always shooting at the maximum resolution isn't exactly true for all of us. When I cover events I can shoot thousands of images a day for 3-4 days at a time and have to turn those around same day...and I still want the benefits of RAW, just not the resolution or file size. Yes, cRAW is roughly the size of a standard 20mp RAW out of the R6, but those images do NOT process easily in software like 20mp, as it chugs along to read the 45mp file format, versus blazing through a normal CR2/CR3 RAW...not sure why, but please give us back smaller RAW.
I struggle to understand these arguments about file size. A 128 Gb CFx card will hold about 2,800 RAWs and the cost of hard drives goes down every day. The one time you need to crop in and save a picture is worth it. You don't take an Instamatic to a wedding because you seldom need high resolution but you take a high-end camera because it minimizes the number of times you have to say I'm sorry that your first kiss was fuzzy because I lost track of time and was in the back of the church when it happened! The reason professional photographers buy the best is that you prepare for every eventuality that you can so if your 45Mp sensor saves your behind once, it's worth it and all the wasted file space is forgotten.
 
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HarryFilm

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Jun 6, 2016
705
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He talks about a lot of things he doesn't understand.


You use the thermodynamic abilities of modern CAD/CAM/FEA modeling software (i.e. CATIA thermodynamic modules and others) to allow one to plan the ENTIRE heat transfer path from chip to air.

While i personally AM --NOT-- A LICENCED PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER, our OTHER employees ARE!

I think I would trust the expertise of a number of MSc.EE's and P.E. (Civ and Mech) who have literally a combined 1000+ man-years of engineering experience over what is said here on CanonRumors about what can or cannot be done engineering-wise! These guys actually ARE ROCKET SCIENTISTS !!! They build spaceships for a living! They KNOW thermodynamics like the back of their hands!

Metals and composites with DISSIMILAR thermodynamic profiles are combined and used to plot and build a specific heat transfer path through a mechanical part. If THEY say it can be done, THEN IT CAN BE DONE !!!

PERIOD !!!! NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS ABOUT IT!!!

The proof of their ACTUAL REAL WORLD EXPERTISE is the various systems in high and low orbit RIGHT THIS SECOND that work 24/7/365 in the most HARSH environment possible! --- SPACE!

Soooooo, if 360L series Stainless Steel can be used as a thermal throttle then it will be used as one and if Copper and ceramic glass heat sinks, vapour-filled heat pipes and carbon-composite tile insulator can be used to create a long-duration heat sink THEN IT WILL BE !!!!

Ergo, the egghead scientists KNOW MUCH MORE THAN ME AND YOU !!!

Sooooo, I will take THEIR WORD for it as what can and cannot be done thermodyamically!

V

V
 

raptor3x

EOS RP
Jan 26, 2012
610
99
State College, PA
whumber.com
Ergo, the egghead scientists KNOW MUCH MORE THAN ME AND YOU !!!

Sooooo, I will take THEIR WORD for it as what can and cannot be done thermodyamically

I'm an aerothermal engineer in the turbomachinery industry. I'm sure your co-workers understand what they're talking about but I suspect you may have misremembered what they told you.

Alan Greenspan said:
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
 
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HarryFilm

EOS RP
Jun 6, 2016
705
166
I'm an aerothermal engineer in the turbomachinery industry. I'm sure your co-workers understand what they're talking about but I suspect you may have misremembered what they told you.

---

I am assuming you design/engineer impellers, rotors, intakes, exhaust systems and manifolds, etc for automotive and/or aerospace applications, SOOOOOOOOO, you probably get what a high-level engineer can do.

AND NO! I have not misremembered what they said. They just do things that are unique to the space industry dealing with an environment that is the harshest around.

I kind of now know WHY they are using dissimilar compounds to throttle/expand a thermal path and i ALSO KNOW that what they do has applications in consumer electronics. (i.e. which they have demonstrated via the building of a 16K camera body!)

The key with using a POOR thermal conductor is similar to using valves in piping. You are throttling thermal throughput in specific ways to ensure waste heat gets stored and/or moved around via a specific pathway at specific times using a passive means of heat movement regulation.

That's why CATIA with all its great modeling modules is a $250,000+ package! It makes the engineer's life so much easier to QUICKLY design and model ways to move heat, cold, water, oil, gas and WHATEVER ELSE needs to be "piped around" to specific locations to be either used-up or expelled !!!

Ergo! Try 360L Stainless Steel! They use it in cookware like frying pans along with aluminum and/or copper plates embedded within!

Nice cookware!

THAT is a good example of thermal regulation design and engineering!

Use that stainless steel grade in camera mount base plates for anti-corrosion AND as a well-regulated thermal storage and output system and JUST MAYBE the Canon R1 will be able to do 60 fps burst rate 64-bit RGBA stills AND 60 fps DCI 8K video!

V
 

Chig

Birds in Flight Nutter
Jul 26, 2020
144
123
Orewa , New Zealand
You use the thermodynamic abilities of modern CAD/CAM/FEA modeling software (i.e. CATIA thermodynamic modules and others) to allow one to plan the ENTIRE heat transfer path from chip to air.

While i personally AM --NOT-- A LICENCED PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER, our OTHER employees ARE!

I think I would trust the expertise of a number of MSc.EE's and P.E. (Civ and Mech) who have literally a combined 1000+ man-years of engineering experience over what is said here on CanonRumors about what can or cannot be done engineering-wise! These guys actually ARE ROCKET SCIENTISTS !!! They build spaceships for a living! They KNOW thermodynamics like the back of their hands!

Metals and composites with DISSIMILAR thermodynamic profiles are combined and used to plot and build a specific heat transfer path through a mechanical part. If THEY say it can be done, THEN IT CAN BE DONE !!!

PERIOD !!!! NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS ABOUT IT!!!

The proof of their ACTUAL REAL WORLD EXPERTISE is the various systems in high and low orbit RIGHT THIS SECOND that work 24/7/365 in the most HARSH environment possible! --- SPACE!

Soooooo, if 360L series Stainless Steel can be used as a thermal throttle then it will be used as one and if Copper and ceramic glass heat sinks, vapour-filled heat pipes and carbon-composite tile insulator can be used to create a long-duration heat sink THEN IT WILL BE !!!!

Ergo, the egghead scientists KNOW MUCH MORE THAN ME AND YOU !!!

Sooooo, I will take THEIR WORD for it as what can and cannot be done thermodyamically!

V

V
Well Harry , I have studied engineering and I don't think you understand heat flow or materials well enough to give any informed or useful comments.
 

Chig

Birds in Flight Nutter
Jul 26, 2020
144
123
Orewa , New Zealand
For the cost, size & weight of having an embedded bottom dual grip in every R1, imagine if Canon saved all that and instead put it towards a square sensor so that you did not have to rotate the camera anymore? They could size the square sensor to fit the existing image circle (ok, which I agree is not 100% ideal) for consumer cameras. They could also allow their top end R1 camera to take the full size FF shot in both orientations by designing a 36 x 36 mm chip in place of the 36 x 24 one. Yes it would be very expensive to do this (and we all know it won't happen) but it is something that could happen. You would get a better ergonomic R1 with a (probably) slightly smaller & lighter body (and more expensive initally). But imagine if they later came out with a few $$$ pro lenses to fit the larger 36 x 36 sensor image circle - That'd be awesome (and well, really expensive, but still awesome!). And some of their lenses are said to have an unusually large image circle so that they might even fit the larger image circle already!
What about a circular sensor so could crop any angle ?
Diameter would be about 40mm.
Quite often I realise I was not holding the camera quite level or just wished I could rotate to a particular angle
Crop any square or rectangular shape or just use a circular image if you want ?
More artistic freedom and no need to ever worry about rotating the camera for landscape/portrait
Would need Quad pixel auto focusing of course to work best
 
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usern4cr

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Sep 2, 2018
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What about a circular sensor so could crop any angle ?
Crop any square or rectangular shape or just use a circular image if you want ?
Sure, why not? I'd be happy to buy it and capture every last pixel out of the lens.
Hey, they could pack them in a hexagon pattern to increase the number of chips per wafer - which would be needed since they'd get far fewer than the conventional 36x24 layout.

Of course, since none of this will ever really happen, why not have a circular sensor?
Right about now, I'm sure HarryFilm might jump in and show us all how they've already got it done and are giving their big reveal next week! :ROFLMAO:
 
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HarryFilm

EOS RP
Jun 6, 2016
705
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Well Harry , I have studied engineering and I don't think you understand heat flow or materials well enough to give any informed or useful comments.


--- I AM ----NOT---- A PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER --- !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ergo, it's my opinion and it can be as crappy, illogical and wrong as I want it to be ..... i.e. You're THE Engineer! YOU fix it!

I'll go have my double mocha and let the eggheads work it all out! As the saying goes .... IT AIN'T MY PROBLEM!

I'm just the graphics programmer!


:) :) ;-) ;-) :) :)
 
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Chig

Birds in Flight Nutter
Jul 26, 2020
144
123
Orewa , New Zealand
Sure, why not? I'd be happy to buy it and capture every last pixel out of the lens.
Hey, they could pack them in a hexagon pattern to increase the number of chips per wafer - which would be needed since they'd get far fewer than the conventional 36x24 layout.

Of course, since none of this will ever really happen, why not have a circular sensor?
Right about now, I'm sure HarryFilm might jump in and show us all how they've already got it done and are giving their big reveal next week! :ROFLMAO:
Yes a slightly oversize hexagon wafer would probably be easier to manufacture with HexaPixelAutoFocus for 3 axis focusing of course .
In effect the image would still be circular to match the lens image circle to the pixels would only be in the circular active part with blank wafer outside this :cool:
Can you imagine the nerd envy of Sony fanboys if Canon made this especially with Hexa Pixel Auto Focus !
Perhaps I can patent it ?
I'd rather Canon just built it though and owed me a beer !
 
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