Which grass is considered greener (do nikonians complain as much as canonians)?

[jdramirez]

Well, first Nikon owners are not very proud of Nikon behaviour during the D600 dustgate .

Second, I observed more frequently Nikon camera for sale second hand than Canon (subjective as I have not counted them). I concluded that Canon owners were happier so keeping their camera longer.

Not to be a contrarian... but I do see a good deal of people selling their t3's and t3i's... and sometimes I buy them and then sell them making a profit... sometimes their demand price is practically what they paid... so they are delusional...

But all in all... I think there is a mix of both nikon and canon... but there is a resale market for both... for pentax and sony... I think you have to get really lucky to find someone who WANTS either.

 

[llmogen]

I keep reading a whole bunch of reasons why Canon "should" switch to a Sony sensor for more DR, but I have yet to read one response that needs to be brought up:

In-house engineering expertise.

Canon is substantially bigger than Nikon, and as such, has much deeper pockets for Engineering R&D. If you consider the sensor a key-component of your camera (and it is), why would you outsource it to a competitor? (Apple & Samsung parallel with this issue) Canon most definitely is working on a sensor with On-chip ADC- we just don't know about it. If Sony has a patent on it, Canon is doing their best to work around it (if possible).

What happens the day that the contract between Sony & Nikon ends, and Sony triples the price of their sensor? My guess would be that Nikon says NO, and then Nikon needs to then restart their stalled sensor R&D department, which by then has a years long handicap. Canon plays the long game. The 5D Mark III may not be the best camera in all situations, but then neither is Nikon 800 (now 810). In my experience, glass is limited by physics, and bodies limited by electronics- which is why some old lenses are still made (135 f/2 was released in 1996). What photographer wants a Canon body released in 1996? I fully expect to replace my bodies every few years, but I don't plan to replace lenses often, even if a newer revision appears.

Besides, most people would say that Canon has a much better lens lineup than Nikon, nevermind CPS vs NPS customer service (heck, it's hard to enroll in NPS!)

The more people keep talking up Sony sensors in Nikon cameras, the more people start thinking that the sensor is the one part that's keeping them from becoming the next Ansel Adams. The fact that we Canon-ites can entertain the idea of getting an A7 solidifes this fact. There's a reason Nikon doesn't advertise using Sony sensors- they know that it diminishes the apparent value of the rest of the camera.

Yes, dynamic range is important. More important is the photographer's skills, and it's quite easy to fall into the trap of 'better gear = better photographs".

Just my 2 cents!

 

[psolberg]

ha ha. photographers in general are quite stuck on their equipment rather than skills, so yes.

 

[Hannes]

it is much easier improving equipment than skill though so that is why most are so focussed on it.

 

[Sporgon]

The more people keep talking up Sony sensors in Nikon cameras, the more people start thinking that the sensor is the one part that's keeping them from becoming the next Ansel Adams. The fact that we Canon-ites can entertain the idea of getting an A7 solidifes this fact.

Very well put, quote of the week !

 

[Lawliet]

I'll give an A7r rental a try. I'm wary of the compression, but as you say...it can't be worse than the shadow noise on the 5D III.

Lets put it that way: In the last weeks I had both file sets from sessions shot with 5D3 vs. D810&A7r, the latter took the retoucher on average a good deal less time to get ready for delivery. Actually that costs saved paid for the D810.

Well, that pragmatic approach beats any theoretical discussion in my book... 8)

 

[unfocused]

I keep reading a whole bunch of reasons why Canon "should" switch to a Sony sensor for more DR, but I have yet to read one response that needs to be brought up:

In-house engineering expertise.

This is something I've thought about. As a manager myself, I wonder to what extent Canon management is concerned about the morale of their engineering and manufacturing divisions is they started buying sensors from a competitor, as many on this forum have suggested.

First of all, let's say for the sake of argument that Sony sensors really are better at this point in time (a judgment that is highly subjective and very suspect, since it hinges on tiny, tiny differences in just one subset of a sensor's overall performance, but that horse has been so thoroughly beaten, let's dispense with it for now)

What would it say to Canon's employees if the management team said, "sorry guys, you've done a good job but we decided to buy sensors from Sony because they are slightly better in one category that hasn't affected our sales in the slightest but it's caused a handful of people to go crazy on the internet."

It seems like the first impact would be a rush to the door by the most talented persons. They've spent countless hours perfecting products and now the management is saying, "sorry your best isn't good enough."

Who knows what would happen next? Maybe quality control would drop and Canon would ship out a bunch of cameras with sensors that have a serious oil leak on them and be forced to replace the model early and offer customers a free replacement at substantial loss to the company.

I don't know. Could such a thing happen?

Perhaps Canon, being a conservative company, figures: "well, these small differences are not affecting our sales. It's more a case of bragging rights. No one knows better than our own engineering team where we have to improve. They've done a great job innovating for us in recent years, let's hang in there with them for awhile and see what they come up with because we know they are pushing themselves harder than we ever could."

 

[psolberg]

Well, first Nikon owners are not very proud of Nikon behaviour during the D600 dustgate .

Second, I observed more frequently Nikon camera for sale second hand than Canon (subjective as I have not counted them). I concluded that Canon owners were happier so keeping their camera longer.

well, canon isn't proud of 1DsMKIII oil gate. listen, stop playing the fanboy card. every OEM messes up. canon will, so don't tempt karma

I never understood why photographers get so worked up over stupidity such as who is happier based on anecdotal evidence. who cares.

 

[Loswr]

I never understood why photographers get so worked up over stupidity such as who is happier based on anecdotal evidence. who cares.

Yeah, what matters isn't what people think or say, what matters is what they do. People can babble on about this test shows more DR, or that test shows better shadow latitude, this other test shows higher resolution with those lenses, and that other test shows better AF performance. But at the end of the day, it's all talk. Actions – on which products people choose to spend their money – that's actual, quantifiable evidence with a true real-world basis and practical implications.

So...who sells more dSLRs? :

 

[Canon1]

Uh oh... Broken record alert...

 

[Loswr]

So...who sells more dSLRs? :

And...who sold more cell- and smartphones when the disruptive iPhone came along?

Who sold more PCs when the disruptive tablet came along?

Who rented more DVDs when web-based DVD rentals came along?
(And related...Who rented more DVDs when online streaming came along?)

The world is full of examples of what happens when disruptive innovation causes paradigm shifts and changes the marketplace.

Some good examples where the new product or service offered clear advantages that were evident and beneficial to the majority of consumers. Sorry, but Exmor sensors satisfy at best one of those criteria, and MILCs in general don't satisfy any.

Technology advances, paradigm shifts occur. But Exmor isn't a paradigm shifting technology, and MILCs aren't showing strong signs of fitting that bill either. Camera phones were paradigm shifting, having a dramatic and ongoing effect on P&S sales, and impacting dSLR sales as well.

It's very likely a future paradigm shift will affect dSLRs in general and Canon specifically. However, your implication (in the other thread) that Sony MILCs will constitute that paradigm shift is improbable to the point of absurdity.

 

[Lawliet]

I'm not calling MILCs the paradigm shift. The paradigm shift is the significant gains being made in sensor IQ.

Maybe closer to a paradigm split.
Lets keep in mind that there are two groups of buyers - kit only vs. more serious.
For the first group MILCs can be made cheaper, allowing for profit even without selling additional lenses.
The second otoh values quality and is willing to pay for it. Those buy high margin items.
Mixing those groups together would be misleading, one could infere that sales to the first group are a good indicator for the second population being stable.

 

[Loswr]

Sensor technology is the paradigm shift. Sensor technology is progressing at an extremely rapid pace, and it IS disrupting markets.

Your example of disruption in the astro CCD market is not very relevant, it's too niche. I could expound on some technological paradigm shifts in biological science, relevant only to a similarly small audience.

Sensor technology as a paradigm shift for cameras? The vast...VAST...majority of images taken with dSLRs are shot as JPGs and shared electronically with minimal (e.g. Instagram) or no editing. If they're printed at all, it's as 4x6" prints for photo albums or 4x8" photo greeting cards, or maybe on a t-shirt for grandma. Improved sensor technology leading to improved image quality just doesn't have meaningful impact on those use cases.

Once again, you're assuming your personal uses, needs, and motivations are mirrored by the majority. I'm quite sure that improved sensor technology would be of clear and evident benefit to most camera users who own thousands of dollars worth of lenses. That's not exactly a significant fraction of camera buyers, though, is it?

 

[Loswr]

The companies that don't survive...well...they either didn't see it coming, or kept thinking "Well, hah, who is still selling more <pick-your-poison>?"

I don't want to see it happen to Canon...but Canon is like a slug in a centipede race these days...

Three to five (around one total generational cycle for Canon, probably several generational cycles for their competitors) years from now, I think the dominant camera manufacturer landscape could look quite different. The slower pace gives Canon plenty of time to adapt. The big question is...will they?

Let's see... You used the phrase "dSLR market" several times. You're talking about the dominant camera manufacturer landscape looking quite different if Canon fails to adapt. You're talking about companies not surviving, clearly and plainly implying doom for Canon the slug.

But now...

I'm not really talking about the giant Rebel/D5000 kind of "DSLR" market. I'm talking about the professional DSLR market.

So let's just ignore the Rebel market for the time being.

Really?? I mean...I've seen people try moving the goalposts, but you win the booby prize for trying to claim you weren't really talking about goalposts, you were talking about croquet hoops all along. What's next? "Well, I wasn't really talking about all high end cameras, just the ones with 14 buttons that people buy on a Tuesday, but that dSLR sub-sub-sub-market will surely be affected by the sensor technology paradigm shift...someday, maybe in a few years." Sheesh.

 

[Aglet]

The grass is greener on ALL sides of the fence, it all depends where the backlighting is.

From the Nikon side, I miss the simplicity of using Canon cameras with their intuitive interfaces.
They have a catalog of lenses that covers ALMOST anything I'd want. I sure covet those TS-E lenses!
I have a lot of this stuff. (I HAD a lot more)

from the Canon side, I really wish the low ISO performance was better, I'm tired of dealing with so much pattern (& random) noise when i'm trying to maul a raw file. But I sure like how quickly I can make good use of any body I pick up and shoot with.

from the Pentax side, WTH is with the metering! It's nowhere as predictable as CaNikon's. But it does deliver the goods otherwise and this IBIS is better than I thought it would be.

From the Olympus side, who designed this menu system?!? They really ought to look at how Canon does this. But these lenses are amazing. Wow I can do a lot of funky stuff with this camera! I sure like shooting with a decent EVF, the overlaid live histogram is fantastic.

From the Fuji side, Did the Olypus team design this user interface too?!? Gheez this gear is pricey, doesn't work too well for action either, and I wish there were more native lens options. But holy cow, did you see the shots I pulled off with this thing? Even the camera jpgs look gorgeous. Low ISO, hi ISO, this thing creates the images I see in my mind. Noise reduction?... what's that? Wow, I sure like shooting with a good EVF, the overlaid live data is fantastic.

With that, I don't feel like I'm fenced into some tiny area, confined to one manufacturer's products. I can (thankfully) afford to have a variety of tools available, each well suited to different types of shooting conditions or just my mood for the moment. I complement each mfr's bodies with the lenses and accessories best suited to how I'm going to exploit each of their advantages:
- more fast glass for the Fuji and Olympus,
- nothing more from Pentax for now unless they release a FF,
- some 3rd party goodies for Nikon to expand options here to more areas.
- nothing for the Canon group either, will keep what I have that works well, maybe grab an updated 7d2 if it works really well, possibly a long prime or zoom if I can justify how little I'll use it.

When my Canon gear showed that its limitations were making some kinds of shooting difficult for me, I spent little time working on work-arounds and, instead, researched better alternatives.

Dammit Canon! Your FPN issues caused me to learn a lot more and spend a lot more $ than I had ever thought I would!

 

[sarangiman]

Aglet: all good points. I liked Canon ergonomics too, but I'm faring just fine with Nikon too, once I switched those dials and indicators. The more sensitive D-pad on the D810 is actually a pleasure to use now. I hear this argument about Canon ergonomics being better all the time and, in the end, I really don't get it. Both systems are perfectly usable and don't get in the way of my photography as much as, say, Canon's limited DR or the 5DIII's complete inability to track subjects across the frame. My point being: there are things you can easily work around, and other things that prove much more difficult to work around. So Canon ergonomics is a tenuous reason to stick with Canon.

Plus, it's easy to find something to pick on from either company. For example, Nikon has the best implementation of programmable auto ISO, with easy access to exposure compensation in M mode with auto ISO. Canon finally put EC in M mode into the 1DX, but did so in one of the most unusable ways imaginable: either via the Q menu (requiring you to take your eye away from the OVF), or via the Set button (which we all like to assign to magnified playback view). Meanwhile, there's a dedicated EC button on the 1DX at the top of the camera... but, no, why assign EC to that?

So much for 'intuitive interfaces'...

 

[ULFULFSEN]

Let's see... You used the phrase "dSLR market" several times. You're talking about the dominant camera manufacturer landscape looking quite different if Canon fails to adapt. You're talking about companies not surviving, clearly and plainly implying doom for Canon the slug.

When we only look at the DSLR Camera part of Canons business, don´t we see a decline already?
I thought i read that somewhere.

Canon has way more products, so they could still make a profit while the DSLR Camera market suffers.

When Canon offers me no strong reason to upgrade i will stick to my 5D II a long time. The amateur market will break away at some point, if there is nothing noticable better.
Even the China market will not save Canon forever.
My guess is that China plays a big part that DSLR sales look not much worse.

As this is a hobby for me i need a reason to upgrade.

Im sure other people have a reason, better AF or more FPS in the newer models.
But it´s time Canon does something for the Landscape and Portrait shooter too.

 

[ChristopherMarkPerez]

I feel the Pros can use just about anything that's handed to them and still do their jobs well. Yes, some tools are tailored one way or another (for instance, sports vs studio vs video). In general I've seen that good working pros can sort out the technologies while retaining concentration on their final images.

A prime example of this to me is Annie Leibovitz. She doesn't concern herself with the technologies and which system might be slightly better or different than another. No, she has other things on her mind. I'm not sure how she's doing these days, but there was a time when she'd take anything free that was handed to her (Canon, Nikon, Hassleblad, etc). She turned out salable images no matter which manufacture wanted her name associated with their brand.

The questioning and complaints, I feel, come from people who are, for the most part, intelligent and interested in the technologies and see what they believe to be big differences in Banner Specs. An example of this to me is the recent back and forth on these forums about Sony's 36 and (rumored) 50mpixel sensors. The Banner Specs look impressive. In the details, well, it depends on who you are as to whether a system is really better than what you own or not. If Sony's A7 series is any example, who here would put up with a 1.2FPS? Who would tolerate terrible AF performance in lower (not even low) light conditions? Who here would be happy with the current Sony E-mount lens situation?

The folks who are publicly upset (in on-line forums where anonymity can be easy cover) may have other things going on in their lives that lead them to spout off in perhaps inappropriate, ill-informed, ways (see an article on Mary Beard in a recent New Yorker Magazine for how she deals with trolls for an glimpse of what I'm trying to say here).

That's my take on it. YMWV.

 

[sarangiman]

jrista: I wouldn't bother. You're not going to convince someone that sensor performance matters if that person - no matter how smart he is - appears to not have a single photograph taken in challenging light (in his shared collection anyway).

Those who care are those who've struggled out in the field, time and again, and are tired of fighting their equipment at the cost of the art. Especially when there are much better alternatives out there... that have existed for years, no less.

I think confirmation bias really runs rampant in some of these threads. My favorite was a previous comment by someone that basically tried to say that since Canon is still leading the market, DxO's image science must be wrong. Yes, let's correlate two entirely uncorrelated things.

 

[ULFULFSEN]

A prime example of this to me is Annie Leibovitz. She doesn't concern herself with the technologies and which system might be slightly better or different than another. No, she has other things on her mind. I'm not sure how she's doing these days, but there was a time when she'd take anything free that was handed to her (Canon, Nikon, Hassleblad, etc). She turned out salable images no matter which manufacture wanted her name associated with their brand.

You can drive to work with a 10 year old car.
In most cases you will not even arrive faster with a new car.

Professional Drivers (Taxi Drivers) do exactly that, they often drive older cars.
Do you see them talk on Sportcar forums?

Still people want and buy new Cars.
They talk for hours on car forums about 5 or 10 PS more and 0-100km/h acceleration.

While what you say is right, it doesn´t matter for most customers (majority being Rebel and xxD buyer).

People are that way and you will not change it!


As enthusiastic hobbists you want BETTER for your money, not good enough.
So as a Canon user it´s normal i think when you want Canon to match or beat Sony and Nikon at anything (sales are the least concern for the normal customers)
And when you are a Nikon or Sony owner it´s the other way around.

People want the BEST for their money.
They are maybe satisfied with a 5D MK3 overall but they still wish they had a better sensor.

Canon is in the good position to have a wide userbase already. Build over decades.
If all companys would start at ZERO userbase (no human on earth owns a Camera or Lens) but with their current technology and products. Then Canon would not be able to achive the position again it is in right now.

Canon sales today are in great parts build on past achievments.
Todays sales numbers are not such a big indication that people are 100% happy with Canon cameras.

The uneducated customers buys a Rebel simply because of the brand name.