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AlanF · Apr 2, 2026

Etnaphele said:
Canon prime 600mm F4 is 3kg, the Sigma less than 4kg, where does the "behemoth" line lie?

That is not an easy question to answer. Behemoth is an evocative word term for something of monstrous size, power, or appearance. It is not defined by precise quantities but is something that you know to be huge when you see it. It is frequently used to describe large telephoto lenses. A quick search finds that the 300-600 has already been defined as a behemoth by a respected reviewer.

https://uk.pcmag.com/lenses/158089/sigma-300-600mm-f4-dg-os-sports

“After two weeks of lugging the Sigma 300-600mm F4 around for wildlife snaps at a refuge, the zoo, and my backyard, I walked away with some fantastic photos and a seriously sore shoulder. At 18.5 by 6.6 inches (HD) without the hood attached, and 8.8 pounds, the lens is a behemoth. That's big even among its peers.” And the reviewer recommends: "Keep your Chiropractor on Speed Dial"

So, I think that if there were a hypothetical line to be drawn, the Sigma is likely to be on the behemoth side. Though this guy might disagree.

roby17269 · Apr 2, 2026

Canon Rumors said:
In a recent published interview with French publication Phototrend.fr, a pretty big bit of information came from Canon themselves. It doesn't sound like the lack of third-party autofocus lenses for the RF mount has anything to do with Canon. Full Frame Sigma RF Lenses While I touched on it in the interview, I think the […]

See full article...

I am sorry but this new article adds objectively nothing to the previous discussion.
So if the aim was to convince people that Canon is not responsible for the current lack of 3rd party RF FF AF lenses, color me unconvinced yet.

There are a few points that make little sense to me. Firstly about Sigma's capacity. There's no law that says that a manufacturer needs to meet demand. It's typical to start with limited quantities to test the waters. Unless one sells stuff as loss-leaders, every single unit sold is a good thing. If capacity was a crippling issue, how come Canon is fine and yet every new lens they sell goes into the "sorry we can't make enough of these" list?

Also the RF mount may be complex but we have no information about material differences between the RF and RF-S mounts, so that point sounds suspect to me too.

Third about Canon execs not lying. Canon is a corporation. Corporations lie. It happens. Not all the times but sometimes it does. Sure they do it in a very careful way to avoid liabilities, but there simply are a lot of circumstances when honesty is bad for business. It is sad but it is what it is. I accept that.

And maybe they were not lying, but logic is not on their side on this one. Until we know more facts, or until Sigma RF FF AF lenses appear, I remain skeptical.

candyman · Apr 2, 2026

antonn said:
R1/R1/R52 + RF600/4, Hirundo rustica

Excellent shots!

mimbu · Apr 2, 2026

Probably a shell company set up specifically to sell RF versions of the Meike lenses under a different brand. That way when Canon decides to sue the pants off them, there are no assets to go after. That shell company can just be shut down and another one will pop up. This might end up being the way the Chinese brands get their lenses onto RF.

roby17269 · Apr 2, 2026

neuroanatomist said:
As stated, if you want to see meaningful noise improvement, get a camera with a larger sensor. Period. Full stop.

I wonder how many more times you will need to explain that?

roby17269 · Apr 2, 2026

GMCPhotographics said:
While the world as you put it may have "moved on", I've yet to see a Sigma wildlife lens that is actually sharp wide open, let alone sharp with a 2x teleconverter.
My old EF 400mm f2.8 LIS was a beautiful lens. Sharp optics, fast AF, great IS....just a bit too heavy. Super sharp wide open and super sharp with a 1.4x, to the point that it was just as sharp as it was natively on my camera. However results with a 2x TC were not so great and needed at least 1/3 of a stop to sharpen up enough. A full stop and it was really usable.
The mkII version is lighter and one of three sharpest lenses Canon have ever produced - period. It's wide open performance with a 2x teleconverter is better than the older mkI lens with a 1.4x tc....it's THAT good. So in my findings, Sigma have not come close to that lofty bench mark set by Canon from over 15 years ago. In fact they don't seem to be able to make a super tele that is sharp at it's longest end natively, wide open. So they are inferior to the optics Canon was producing 27 year ago with their mkI.
Even Canon's newer EF mkIII version is not as sharp as the mkII (which is the same lens as the current RF version). It's design brief was to match the sharpness of the Mk1 BUT it's primary design objective was to be as light and portable as possible. It did this astonishingly well, hand holding a mkI was for the brave / super fit and could only be done for a few mins / seconds at time. The mkII was a lot better in this regard but the mkIII is only a liitle more cumbersome than a 70-200/2.8 and a 1.4x TC. It's THAT good, to the point that it opens up new opportunities to hand hold a lens like this that could not realistically be done before without a tripod. It's AF and IS is slightly superior, it's handling and usability is vastly superior but it's Image quality took a step backwards. But even this mkIII version knocks the new Sigma back 20+ years. Sigma is coming out of the dark ages, but is still a long way from where Canon was even 27 years ago with ther mkI.
I would not buy a RF 400mm f2.8 LIS because it's not great fit for me, my current EF mkII is actually a better lens for me. if I did consider an RF wildlife lens, it would be the RF 600mm f4, because I won't need the 2x Tc option too much and it would give me the option of either lens. 400 or 600.
However, I am keen to see what Canon develops next for a rumoured mkII or a zoom variant. If they can make a EF 100-300/f2.8 that matches their superlative EF 300mm f2.8 LIS II (one of the other three top performers) then a rumoured RF 400-600mm f2.8-f4 will be iconic and revolutionary. Combining ALL of the benefits of a 400/2.8 and 600/f4, the sharp ness of the mkII primes but none of the down sides.

My upgrade path is not found in Sigma becuase they have NOTHING that can upgrade what I already have. Sigma have some similar lenses but they have no benefits for me over what I already have. I have no gear lust because I don't make those kinds of mistakes. My lenses are tools and they very carefully assessed and selected before I make my investment. My upgrade path is found in Canon because I can see real world benefits, the question is...is it fiscally incentivised enough to sway me with my current gear and my current budget? I don't spend money because I have it, I invest in equipment that will bring me a direct improvement to my photography. I save and buy, I then compare old to new and if I was right (and I usually am) I then sell the old one.

I am not as prejudiced as you suppose or keep hinting at, I'm a Canon beliver because the gear is worth beliving in. I like to invest in "best of breed" gear, not "it's ok", "quite good" or "90% but cheaper" gear. I think it is one of tenets of Socialism that you accuse your opposition of the thing you are more guilty of.

I haven't heard of a Canon RF 400-600 2.8-4 - that would be awesome if indeed they make one but I would expect it to be more than $15K... and in any case it is academic until it materializes, like all the discussions on the RF 300-600 4-5.6 or 5.6... they may be great lenses but we cannot mount them on RF bodies since they do not exist yet. So I won't call them iconic or revolutionary just yet. The Sigma 300-600 exists but we cannot mount it on RF bodies as well since Canon doesn't want us to.

Everything I have read about the 300-600 4 say it's a great lens apart from the weight. Especially in the context of price. Do you have any evidence of the contrary? Otherwise yes, you would be prejudiced. By definition.

Regardless. It is totally fine that you are fully satisfied with the Canon system. But you seem unable to accept that not everyone is a Canon believer. They are a corporation that wants to make money, not the leaders of a cult. I am a Canon user, no more no less. I like my Canon gear as I like my Hasselblad gear. And I would appreciate more choice, specifically access to some of Sigma's latest offerings.
So what exactly would I be "guilty" of? Apologies but I am not really sure about what you're trying to say in your last paragraph.

neuroanatomist · Apr 2, 2026

mmills79 said:
My point is that with higher pixel denity on the same size chip, the less light you can collect (we agree) and that worsens the noise figure.

No, we don't agree on that. For an individual pixel, smaller means more noise, sure. People who measurebate pixels love discussing that. People who take pictures care about image noise. Image noise is fundamentally independent of pixel size, but rather depends on total light gathered, which is determined by the area of the image sensor, not the number of pixels packed into that sensor. Divide a FF sensor into 45 million pixels or 24 million pixels, the total light gathered is the same.

mmills79 said:
With a BSI chip however (or even a stacked chip - if the rumours are true), that technology improves the ability to collect more light. However if the net overall performance gain between the increased pixel count and the BSI technology offsets in still no improvement in noise figure, then Canon missed an opportuniy to improve the camera overall. Had they kept the pixel density the same as the original 32MP sensor, then with the addition of the BSI technology, there would have been a much needed improvement in noise figure.

At the pixel sizes relevant for APS-C and FF sensors, BSI makes effectively no difference in noise. BSI was developed to enable packing more pixels into smartphone-sized camera sensors while maintaining acceptable image quality. With pixel sizes <2 µm, the benefit of BSI is meaningful. In the 2-3 µm range, the effect is marginal at best, and >3 µm BSI is effectively a marketing slogan.

mmills79 said:
I'm a photographer and I wanted to see a noise performance improvement and they may have missed the boat there.

As stated, if you want to see meaningful noise improvement, get a camera with a larger sensor. Period. Full stop.

roby17269 · Apr 2, 2026

GMCPhotographics said:
That's a key point, most users of a 600mm f4, want the flexibilty of a sharp and convienient (relatively) 800mm f5.6, ie popping on a 1.4x TC. If the native lens isn't particularly sharp wide open at 600mm, what's it going to be like with a 1.4x tc? I'd never buy lens like a 300-600mm and then prat around with it at the wide end becuase that's where it's sharp. Surely it's long end performance that matters.

Do you have any links about the Sigma 300-600 4 being not good at 600mm? The reviews I have seen speak highly of that lens.

Also you keep comparing the Sigma 120-300 2.8 to the Canon RF 100-300 2.8. It's true that the Canon is the significantly better lens. But the Sigma is a 2012 $3800 (at launch) lens pre-mirroless, while the Canon is a 11 years younger $10500 lens. It seems unfair to me.

mmills79 · Apr 2, 2026

neuroanatomist said:
"If you want better noise performance, you need a bigger sensor."

My point is that with higher pixel denity on the same size chip, the less light you can collect (we agree) and that worsens the noise figure. With a BSI chip however (or even a stacked chip - if the rumours are true), that technology improves the ability to collect more light. However if the net overall performance gain between the increased pixel count and the BSI technology offsets in still no improvement in noise figure, then Canon missed an opportuniy to improve the camera overall. Had they kept the pixel density the same as the original 32MP sensor, then with the addition of the BSI technology, there would have been a much needed improvement in noise figure. It seems however, Canon also tried to target this new camera for higher video capabilities too and so they may have increased pixel density. Sometimes you can't have it both ways. On one hand the marketing has suggested this is a camera for birdiers but it also seems that they chose not to improve noise performance in favor of video. That choice is likely to ultimately be unpopular since as I mentioned above, a lot of action shots take place in poor or low light and it seems Canon may not have done much to improve low light/high ISO performance - thus this Mark II is likely to be a disappointment to action photographers but, maybe vidographers may like it. In my opinion, they could have either released two versions of the R7 like they did for the R50 or perhaps they should have improved one of the full frame models to support video. I'm a photographer and I wanted to see a noise performance improvement and they may have missed the boat there.

Click · Apr 2, 2026

Very nice shots, antonn. I really like the second one.

antonn · Apr 2, 2026

R1/R1/R52 + RF600/4, Hirundo rustica

mmills79 · Apr 2, 2026

neuroanatomist said:
If you want better noise performance, you need a bigger sensor. For those who understand the relevant concepts, there’s not much more to discuss. The 20% increase in pixel density will make zero difference. BSI will make zero difference.

The R5II has a much higher pixel density than the R6III, the noise performance is the same.

View attachment 228690

A larger sensor has less image noise, because it gathers more total light. Crop down the R5II to APS-C size, you lose DR (because of increased image noise), and what you get is essentially the same as the R7.

View attachment 228689

antonn · Apr 2, 2026

R52 + RF600/4, Ardea cinerea

Etnaphele · Apr 2, 2026

AlanF said:
It's a 4.3 kg behemoth. The Sony 300mm f/2.8 is only 1.74 kg, and according to the-digital-picture site is sharper with the 2xTC attached at 600mm. If I had the choice of two such lenses for Canon, I'd 100% go for the light prime despite my general preference for tele zooms.

More choice is always better, you mentioned two options not available with a Canon body. You are comparing a prime 300mm with an equally priced zoom starting at 300mm, with a full stop advantage at 600mm with 2×TC, I would hope there is a difference there. Canon prime 600mm F4 is 3kg, the Sigma less than 4kg, where does the "behemoth" line lie?

Much more interesting and sadly not much discussed are the actual focal lengths at MFD, with zooms loosing a bunch of magnifications when focused near (as they are often used). This could be much more of a dealbreaker than pixel peeping extremely sharp lenses, as they all are.

AlanF · Apr 2, 2026

mclaren777 said:
I would gladly buy the Sigma 300-600mm if they released it in either EF or RF mounts.

It's a 4.3 kg behemoth. The Sony 300mm f/2.8 is only 1.74 kg, and according to the-digital-picture site is sharper with the 2xTC attached at 600mm. If I had the choice of two such lenses for Canon, I'd 100% go for the light prime despite my general preference for tele zooms.

Click · Apr 2, 2026

If you like GBH tongues...

EOS 1D X II, EF 500mm f/4L IS II USM

Del Paso · Apr 2, 2026

neuroanatomist said:
The only thing I know for sure that changed is the AA filter. The R used the sensor from the 5DIV, with the old-style AA filter (‘4-point’). The R5II uses the newer ‘16-point’ AA filter. That new design is the reason that the 24 MP R1, R3 and R8 deliver higher resolution than the 30 MP R/5DIV (and a prime example of why resolution does not equate to MP count).

This was also what I suspected.
It prevents me from buying an ovepriced M body in order to keep using my M WA and UWA lenses. Too many quality issues with the latest Leica M bodies...

jeff89 · Apr 2, 2026

GMCPhotographics said:
Wow! You have a lot of 135mm primes. Are they not suffient in some way or are you curating a personal collection? That's a lot of investment into a lot of very similar glass.
The RF 100-300/2.8 is vastly superior to the Sigma 120-300/2.8 OS in every regard. With both lenses, you are getting what you pay for. Please don't be deluded in thinking that your bargain Sigma is the equal to the Canon, it simply isn't.

It’s my second favorite focal length behind 85mm, it was the first lens that I was able to get the shallow depth of field in portraiture photography and once I had great bokeh, it was hard to go back.

With my background, I enjoy the physics of optics, so you are spot on, that photography has developed into an opportunity to collect gear, and I suffer from GAS, as much as the next guy.

I don’t imagine the Sigma is on par with the Canon, but I don’t do a lot of wildlife photography and the ROI on the Great Whites isn’t there for me personally. I became fond of Sigma for their build quality when I wasn’t comfortable paying the price of L glass, and thought the Sigma was a better value than the non-L Canon lenses as far as optics and build quality. Sigma took that to a new level with the introduction of their Art and Sports line of lenses. Once I started buying L lenses, I still hung on to all my Sigma lenses. I was late to the mirrorless party, as was Canon.

Plus Canon had to do a great job in the ability to adapt EF lenses to the RF mount because of its late arrival, and the lack of RF lens options, so old personal favorites such as the EF 85 1.4L still held their magic for me. Is it as good optically as the RF 85 1.2L, no, but the sentimental attachment is still there. You stay with the girl that you brought to the dance.

neuroanatomist · Apr 2, 2026

Del Paso said:
Something must have changed, was it the sensor's protective glass ?

The only thing I know for sure that changed is the AA filter. The R used the sensor from the 5DIV, with the old-style AA filter (‘4-point’). The R5II uses the newer ‘16-point’ AA filter. That new design is the reason that the 24 MP R1, R3 and R8 deliver higher resolution than the 30 MP R/5DIV (and a prime example of why resolution does not equate to MP count).

AlanF · Apr 2, 2026

Herons even use them to toss sticklebacks. (5DSR + EF 100-400mm ii).

3Q7A1912-DxO_Grey_Heron_stickleback+tongue.jpg

3Q7A1802-DxO_Heron+2x3spine_sticklebacks.jpg

Del Paso · Apr 2, 2026

neuroanatomist said:
I don’t think so. When the RF mount first came out, there were no third-party lenses for it. That is a recent development, and only for crop lenses.

What you are referring to are issues with peripheral image correction on third-party EF lenses, those were caused by the camera incorrectly identifying the lens. Such lenses spoof Canon lens ID numbers, and the RF mount made that problematic.

Since those were EF lenses, they required the mount adapter, and thus the distance from the lens to the sensor was the same as that on a DSLR. Optics was not the problem, electronics/software was the issue.

Just a little off topic, but still about the sensor.
I often adapted Leica M lenses to my EOS R. From 35mm focal length: No issue. But shorter focals, including 28mm, couldn't be used, the generated ugly magenta and greenish sides. (Nicknamed "Italian flag).
For fun, I tried again M lenses from 15mm to 28mm on my EOS R 5II, and was stunned. They could all be used without producing this color cast on the picture sides. And even with excellent sharpness from center to the farthest edges... Something must have changed, was it the sensor's protective glass ?
For those interested, I successfully checked 15, 18, 24 and 28mm M lenses.

AlanF · Apr 2, 2026

Celts88 said:
A couple of youtubers here in Oz took out the 200-800 for a spin when it first came out and did a great video on the benefits of the zoom. Yes, it needs a few turns to go from 200-800 but just the fact having the flexibility meant they could shot birds close up, but then catch BIF's at a greater distance.

Yesterday, out with the R5ii/RF200-800mm, I was doing just that. A Mallard flew past the hide at its usual breakneck speed and I zoomed out to about 350mm, and I don't know how the camera was able to focus in the fraction of a second it was in view - I couldn't track it and I hardly saw it in the viewfinder. Then, I shot a Red Kite lazily soaring in the distance at 800mm. That lens is tack sharp at 600mm and below, and sharp enough at 800mm. I would be tempted by another Canon zoom, but it would have to be light enough for me to hike with and hand hold - I am most likely older than you.

GMCPhotographics · Apr 2, 2026

roby17269 said:
We'll have to agree to disagree here. I agree that years ago Sigma lenses could not hold a candle to the best of Canon's offerings.
But in recent years they have upped their game consistently and they have demonstrated they can achieve quality comparable to everyone else.
If they were so manifestedly inferior, do you think they would continue to sell to Sony and L mount users and EF mount users?
As for comparing their 300-600 4 to Canon's rumored zoom, I think your prediction is a tad premature. Of course we won't be able to properly compare them since we can't mount them on the same camera.

It's great that you're happy with your lenses... but the world has not stood still since those were made available.

While the world as you put it may have "moved on", I've yet to see a Sigma wildlife lens that is actually sharp wide open, let alone sharp with a 2x teleconverter.
My old EF 400mm f2.8 LIS was a beautiful lens. Sharp optics, fast AF, great IS....just a bit too heavy. Super sharp wide open and super sharp with a 1.4x, to the point that it was just as sharp as it was natively on my camera. However results with a 2x TC were not so great and needed at least 1/3 of a stop to sharpen up enough. A full stop and it was really usable.
The mkII version is lighter and one of three sharpest lenses Canon have ever produced - period. It's wide open performance with a 2x teleconverter is better than the older mkI lens with a 1.4x tc....it's THAT good. So in my findings, Sigma have not come close to that lofty bench mark set by Canon from over 15 years ago. In fact they don't seem to be able to make a super tele that is sharp at it's longest end natively, wide open. So they are inferior to the optics Canon was producing 27 year ago with their mkI.
Even Canon's newer EF mkIII version is not as sharp as the mkII (which is the same lens as the current RF version). It's design brief was to match the sharpness of the Mk1 BUT it's primary design objective was to be as light and portable as possible. It did this astonishingly well, hand holding a mkI was for the brave / super fit and could only be done for a few mins / seconds at time. The mkII was a lot better in this regard but the mkIII is only a liitle more cumbersome than a 70-200/2.8 and a 1.4x TC. It's THAT good, to the point that it opens up new opportunities to hand hold a lens like this that could not realistically be done before without a tripod. It's AF and IS is slightly superior, it's handling and usability is vastly superior but it's Image quality took a step backwards. But even this mkIII version knocks the new Sigma back 20+ years. Sigma is coming out of the dark ages, but is still a long way from where Canon was even 27 years ago with ther mkI.
I would not buy a RF 400mm f2.8 LIS because it's not great fit for me, my current EF mkII is actually a better lens for me. if I did consider an RF wildlife lens, it would be the RF 600mm f4, because I won't need the 2x Tc option too much and it would give me the option of either lens. 400 or 600.
However, I am keen to see what Canon develops next for a rumoured mkII or a zoom variant. If they can make a EF 100-300/f2.8 that matches their superlative EF 300mm f2.8 LIS II (one of the other three top performers) then a rumoured RF 400-600mm f2.8-f4 will be iconic and revolutionary. Combining ALL of the benefits of a 400/2.8 and 600/f4, the sharp ness of the mkII primes but none of the down sides.

My upgrade path is not found in Sigma becuase they have NOTHING that can upgrade what I already have. Sigma have some similar lenses but they have no benefits for me over what I already have. I have no gear lust because I don't make those kinds of mistakes. My lenses are tools and they very carefully assessed and selected before I make my investment. My upgrade path is found in Canon because I can see real world benefits, the question is...is it fiscally incentivised enough to sway me with my current gear and my current budget? I don't spend money because I have it, I invest in equipment that will bring me a direct improvement to my photography. I save and buy, I then compare old to new and if I was right (and I usually am) I then sell the old one.

I am not as prejudiced as you suppose or keep hinting at, I'm a Canon beliver because the gear is worth beliving in. I like to invest in "best of breed" gear, not "it's ok", "quite good" or "90% but cheaper" gear. I think it is one of tenets of Socialism that you accuse your opposition of the thing you are more guilty of.

AlanF · Apr 2, 2026

fox40phil said:
I think currently the best mount is Z!
You can use Z, F, EF and FE!

And Sigma has already the data for the mount re-engineerered…. Go Sigma Go!!

Nikon has a strict licensing agreement with Sigma that allows it to make only only lenses complementary to their own and not compete. So far, only crop lenses have been released (3 I believe), but some FF are in the pipe line. There are also fps limitations. Nikon has clamped down with lawsuits on Chinese makers.

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