Threads
Blindly pre-order 5D4 - Why NOT
- By Diko
- EOS Bodies
- 34 Replies
After some time has passed and more rumor details regarding the 5D4 appeared why am I ready to blindly pre-order 5D4? And why I believe some people shouldn't be upset with the rumored specs.
I think 5D4 is a decent time for an upgrade, but would you agree with my arguments?
Also feel free to consider it as a summary of my 5 years experience on this forum.
3 years ago I wrote here that CANON is listening to speculations and desires expressed in sites like CR. IMHO especially CR!
2 years later in March 2015 Canon's Managing Director and Chief Executive, Image Communication Products Operations - Masaya Maeda said:
He also mentioned back then:
In September the same year he added:
The interviewer, Dave Etchells, explained:
IMHO those additional production costs may be due to the SONY & CANON SENSOR (PATENT) PARTNERSHIP:
I. The results and the reasons why I am going to blindly pre-order it
1/ Increased DR in the current generation CMOS even according to DxOmark (1dx = 11.8 Evs VS 1Dx2 = 13.5 Evs & 80D = 13.2 Evs), who only took in consideration what was on sensor excluding the rest of circuitry thus rating previous generation Canon DSLRs much lower. I doubt that anyone expects from Canon to release its next iteration of the most successful DSLR line with less than those 13.somehting Evs.
2/ Increased resolution, which combined with better DR and increased ISO (please note "New noise reduction algorithm", let's hope it's before RAW output and not JPEG related only) will make IMHO a game changer, and a true value for its price DSLR body. Please note that a few innovations compared to 1Dx2 are in place. I wouldn't be surprised if Techradar change their mind after getting their hands on 5D4.
3/ True unseen innovation. Whatever people speculate DPRAW is twice the size of regular RAW (DPRAW: 66.9 Mb. vs RAW: 36.8 Mb.). That's for a reason.
The question that remains is if Canon will give license and share the know-how to operate to Adobe (LR, CR for PS usage) and Phase One (C1).
4/ And all the other little goodness: TimeLapse, finally an electronic leveling, GPS, WiFi, USB 3.0, 7 fps.
There's even 4k@4:2:2 and weird 720p@120fps Slow Mo. The first is awesome, but I doubt I will make such great use of it. And the latter which could be IMHO much much better.
I am still missing though:
- the "tilty flippy" display (super usefull for events)
- 1080P@240 fps or higher (if I could only utilize my Canon EF glass on my smartphone it woulnd't be that much of a problem)
- Voice notes attached to the image (It might be there, or could be added via firmware update or ML can provided)
II. And to all those people that needed more than:
1/ 7 fps. Go buy a 1Dx2 (14.0 fps) or 7D2 (10.0 fps) and shut up!
Back in December 2001 the first 1D had "Approx. 8 fps in high-speed continuous shooting drive mode".
And as Neuro pointed out the obvious:
For such fine granularity in capturing the moment I really believe that this either must be your job that pays your bills AND you are in action photography OR simply a whim for luxury treatment. Both deserve paying the extra dollar for 1Dx2 or committing the trade off for its smaller-in-sensor brother 7D2.
A third option is to buy NIKON D820 instead? Word has it it will have 153-point system that has 99 cross-type and 70-80 MPs. Can't find it, but someone claimed 14 fps as well. For me it's a pure overkill and besides all my glass is (for) Canon.
2/ Missing IBIS. No need since even a low-light fan like me will manage to handle shaking with the help of them 30Mps, ISO and good quality glass. And NO! For God's sake IS on BOTH Glass & Body will NOT make blur from shaking disappear. This ain't simple first grade math problem. It's complicated physics of light, where even Gravity matters.
3/ Stupid comparison with SONYNIKONPENTAXHASSELBLADPHASEONE. Screw it!
a) Sony had a huge benefit from their IMX161 CMOS MF, their IMX094 FF sensors and many other before that. It is damn good CMOS sensor vendor.
But others seem to catch up accroding to the: 2016 Chip World's predictions
b) Never-the-less however the only true competitor in the photography equipment still stays NIKON. And they don't seem to get ahead in sales. There must be a reason for that.
6/ Waiting for 5D5. Skipping so much innovation on purpose is a total nonsense, because for me 5D3 had only a shy improvement in the main numbers at best with a few 1Dx stolen features for better sales even lacking WiFi. Actually not a bad camera, but not that good either. Because it didn't worth the price asked.
Both NIKON & CANON show trend of steady slowing pace on new model iteration releases.
No matter if it's for profit or lack of enough R&D reasons the truth is obvious!
NIKON:
CANON
Probably 5D5 would be available somewhere around 2022. ;-) And that is ONLY if until then CANON doesn't decide to stop the series.
All that being said why would you blindly pre-order? Or why NOT. Would you upgrade your 5D3 or the new features aren't that attractive? Would you upgrade APS-H 1D Mark IV?
I think 5D4 is a decent time for an upgrade, but would you agree with my arguments?
Also feel free to consider it as a summary of my 5 years experience on this forum.
3 years ago I wrote here that CANON is listening to speculations and desires expressed in sites like CR. IMHO especially CR!
Undoubtedly I believe this forum is a place which many people visit even without registering. Here opinions are created. A lot is learnt and many why's are being answered.Diko said:
2 years later in March 2015 Canon's Managing Director and Chief Executive, Image Communication Products Operations - Masaya Maeda said:
Many would say that CR is no NEWS MEDIA, but actually many bloggers and journalists come here as this is a good shortcut to learn how new CANON DSLR is being perceived. Ergo they write about it later on.
He also mentioned back then:
In September the same year he added:
and
The interviewer, Dave Etchells, explained:
and
IMHO those additional production costs may be due to the SONY & CANON SENSOR (PATENT) PARTNERSHIP:
However no matter if speculations or not. The results both on paper and in real life show a stable improvement on the above mentioned "future products" so far.
I. The results and the reasons why I am going to blindly pre-order it
1/ Increased DR in the current generation CMOS even according to DxOmark (1dx = 11.8 Evs VS 1Dx2 = 13.5 Evs & 80D = 13.2 Evs), who only took in consideration what was on sensor excluding the rest of circuitry thus rating previous generation Canon DSLRs much lower. I doubt that anyone expects from Canon to release its next iteration of the most successful DSLR line with less than those 13.somehting Evs.
2/ Increased resolution, which combined with better DR and increased ISO (please note "New noise reduction algorithm", let's hope it's before RAW output and not JPEG related only) will make IMHO a game changer, and a true value for its price DSLR body. Please note that a few innovations compared to 1Dx2 are in place. I wouldn't be surprised if Techradar change their mind after getting their hands on 5D4.
3/ True unseen innovation. Whatever people speculate DPRAW is twice the size of regular RAW (DPRAW: 66.9 Mb. vs RAW: 36.8 Mb.). That's for a reason.
The question that remains is if Canon will give license and share the know-how to operate to Adobe (LR, CR for PS usage) and Phase One (C1).
4/ And all the other little goodness: TimeLapse, finally an electronic leveling, GPS, WiFi, USB 3.0, 7 fps.
There's even 4k@4:2:2 and weird 720p@120fps Slow Mo. The first is awesome, but I doubt I will make such great use of it. And the latter which could be IMHO much much better.
I am still missing though:
- the "tilty flippy" display (super usefull for events)
- 1080P@240 fps or higher (if I could only utilize my Canon EF glass on my smartphone it woulnd't be that much of a problem)
- Voice notes attached to the image (It might be there, or could be added via firmware update or ML can provided)
II. And to all those people that needed more than:
1/ 7 fps. Go buy a 1Dx2 (14.0 fps) or 7D2 (10.0 fps) and shut up!
Back in December 2001 the first 1D had "Approx. 8 fps in high-speed continuous shooting drive mode".
And as Neuro pointed out the obvious:
neuroanatomist said:I liked the suggestion that the 5DIII at 6 fps is "pretty damn slow". It's a helluva lot faster than a thumb...
For such fine granularity in capturing the moment I really believe that this either must be your job that pays your bills AND you are in action photography OR simply a whim for luxury treatment. Both deserve paying the extra dollar for 1Dx2 or committing the trade off for its smaller-in-sensor brother 7D2.
A third option is to buy NIKON D820 instead? Word has it it will have 153-point system that has 99 cross-type and 70-80 MPs. Can't find it, but someone claimed 14 fps as well. For me it's a pure overkill and besides all my glass is (for) Canon.
2/ Missing IBIS. No need since even a low-light fan like me will manage to handle shaking with the help of them 30Mps, ISO and good quality glass. And NO! For God's sake IS on BOTH Glass & Body will NOT make blur from shaking disappear. This ain't simple first grade math problem. It's complicated physics of light, where even Gravity matters.
3/ Stupid comparison with SONYNIKONPENTAXHASSELBLADPHASEONE. Screw it!
a) Sony had a huge benefit from their IMX161 CMOS MF, their IMX094 FF sensors and many other before that. It is damn good CMOS sensor vendor.
But others seem to catch up accroding to the: 2016 Chip World's predictions
b) Never-the-less however the only true competitor in the photography equipment still stays NIKON. And they don't seem to get ahead in sales. There must be a reason for that.
Most probably as he also mentioned his source is CIPA.rrcphoto said:
6/ Waiting for 5D5. Skipping so much innovation on purpose is a total nonsense, because for me 5D3 had only a shy improvement in the main numbers at best with a few 1Dx stolen features for better sales even lacking WiFi. Actually not a bad camera, but not that good either. Because it didn't worth the price asked.
Both NIKON & CANON show trend of steady slowing pace on new model iteration releases.
No matter if it's for profit or lack of enough R&D reasons the truth is obvious!
NIKON:
CANON
Probably 5D5 would be available somewhere around 2022. ;-) And that is ONLY if until then CANON doesn't decide to stop the series.
All that being said why would you blindly pre-order? Or why NOT. Would you upgrade your 5D3 or the new features aren't that attractive? Would you upgrade APS-H 1D Mark IV?
How many shutter actuations on your 5DIII?
- By Donkey_Kong
- EOS DSLR
- 6 Replies
I'm wondering what is the most number of shutter actuations taken by a 5DIII.
I realise it's complete luck, though I'm curious nonetheless. How many has yours taken?
Mine is currently sitting on 310,501. Still on its original shutter.
I realise it's complete luck, though I'm curious nonetheless. How many has yours taken?
Mine is currently sitting on 310,501. Still on its original shutter.
Another want/need query
- By chauncey
- Canon General
- 18 Replies
These 100% crops are what my rather dated 1Ds3 with a 300mm f/2.8 lens can cough out.
A 180 macro does as well.
I'm conflicted as to my need for one of the newer models available...would they cough out better images?
A 180 macro does as well.
I'm conflicted as to my need for one of the newer models available...would they cough out better images?
Canon 5D MKIV from a Video Perspective
- EOS Bodies
- 55 Replies
OK so we now know what the 5D Mak IV is going to be based on the history of CR track record of accuracy.
The 5D model, the MK II, is a camera that single-handedly started the ''DSLR Revolution'' which completely turned the video/cinema world upside down.
Then Canon made improvements to the 5DII on the III (real good improvements), but other manufacturers seemed to just keep pulling ahead in video technology and we've been waiting for Canon to strike back and come back as the video leader.
The biggest and most major downside with Canon DSLRs (and 5DIII) is video resolution/sharpness. Many think it's just that it doesn't shoot 4K video but the fact is that it shoots quite soft 1080p video. While it's contained in a 1080p wrapper it's much closer to 720p. This was fine in the earlier days but now companies are offering real 1080p resolution (Sony A7s) and beyond (4K) in cheaper and smaller cameras. Canon needed to address this ASAP before anything else. It's resolution after all that gives that WOW effect and why everyone is jumping to GH4/A7s. It looks impressive and sharp in YT in 1080p and 2160p.
The first Canon to address this is the 1DX II which offered incredible resolution at 4K (real DCI) (well the 1DC was the first and had that resolution way back but we won't count it, being at launch a 12.000 USD camera). But both cameras are really not at a price point to make an impact on the video world as a whole. It's a sports DSLR.
Which brings us to the 5D IV.
What does it have for us video peeps:
1- 4K MJPEG 500mbps.
People who are bitching about that and saying it should be H.264, have NEVER used that codec before and know very little about videography.
Motion Jpeg on the 1DC and 1DXII and 5DIV, is a MUCH superior codec to ALL competing 4K cameras out there. It's simply a much higher image quality. Much higher data and less to zero compression artefacts. And a little unknown fact is that MJPEG on the 5D is 500mbps 8bit 4:2:2, meaning it's EBU Broadcast approved and is ''broadcast quality/accepted'' for HD acquisition while all the other competitors simply cannot be used for that as they have 100mbps 8bit 4:2:0 codecs. So the MJPEG codec offers much higher colour and data information.
This comes in the form of larger file sizes, OF COURSE it does. Would you rather a lower quality codec in a smaller file? Canon could have easily done that. But they choose MJPEG to leap the competition and give a higher IQ. If you want small file sizes, th 5D IV and 1DX II can also shoot h.264 4:2:0 HD. Go ahead and shoot that.
If you ever used the Canon MJPEG 4K files you know what the image quality is like in terms of lack of compression artefacts, fine film grain, huge colour palette, much more versatile and grade-able image than H.264. Just better and better. Again. Want smaller files, shoot H.264 HD or convert your MJPEG files to anything on you PC, even Standard Def for all I know.
MJPEG 500Mbps 4:2:2 4K images is the most exciting part about the 5DIV video, as it means it's again for once has just has better IQ and higher end image than all the rivals. Not a downside. The fat files with Canon filmic and proven picture styles' colours, lowlight, 4K sharpness, will give very special images at that price point.
2- Slowmotion
The 5DIV gives us slowmotion capability. One is 2x slo-mo in 1080p. and 4X slo-mo in 720p.
While I wanted 4x at 1080p, its great we do have the ability to hand out slowmotion files for out clients. Wedding videographers will be using that 2x 1080p a lot for sure. And sports videographers will be using that 4x 720p.
3- Dual Pixel AF with Touch panel
No other video shooting device has this. It's the first time we can now shoot high quality, broadcast level, 4K 4:2:2 video, and have out focusing performed using a touch screen. This feature is HUGE. It almost eliminated the need for follow focus devices and even focus pullers on high end shoots. It proved to be that reliable and good on the 1DXII. It's magic. And best of all, works with all AF lenses. Now any inexperienced shooter can shoot large sensor video with organic focus pulls, and pros can forget about one burden (focus ring) and focus on composition, and this will be also extremlely handy for rigs and stabilization units like steadicams/glidecams/ronins/movi etc where previously your only option was to get a wireless follow focus device and hire someone to focus on a separate monitor for you. Now set to face detection, record. See how big this actually is? This technology will be scaled up in the far future to Alexa/Red type cameras I am sure.
From the 5D II to III Canon tried to fix the problems of shooting video on DSLRs and these will translate to the MK IV surely so add those too.
1- Eliminated moire and aliasing
2- Gave good audio with silent manual control with the touch pad
3- Gave a headphone out to monitor audio
4- fixed overheating issues and extended recording to the max 30min vs 12min.
5- offered a dedicated record and video liveview mode with meters, dedicated expsoure
6- gave a 1080p HDMI output for monitoring and clean for recording
So the 5D IV is a very interesting video proposition. The things it lacks are:
1- We don't know if the 4K is FF or a 1:1 crop. Which would be a near APS-C one. Still good but we hope for FF. The 1:1 crop from the 20mp 1DXII gives a small crop to APS-H but at 30mp 1.6/1.7x crop is not small and is a totally different sensor size. This could potentially make the 5D a 4K APS-C camera and a FF HD camera.
2- Canon refuses to give non "C" cameras "C"-Log. Which increases highlight DR by at least 1-2 stops (time to install that Cinestyle again to get LOG images -which works very well with the 1DXII btw-)
4- Canon refuses to give manual focus users simple aids like peaking.
5- Of course no EVF and tilty LCD, so you'll get those screen loups out of the closet again (which do make great EVFs to be honest but just another thing to carry and makes the camera bigger)
The biggest missing detail by far is the 4K video crop. If it's a whole sensor downsample from 30mp to 4K (which Canon has never done) or a 1:1 APS-C+ Crop.
So how does it leap other common rivals?
A7s/r: 500mbps 4:2:2 vs 10mbps 4:2:0, higher image quality overall, much better colour rendition and skin tones, much stronger body and button layout. Magical focus system and bigger cheaper lens line-up. Much bigger battery life and no overheating issues.
GH4: Same huge codec difference so higher data rate but the Panny has good Canon-like colours so that's not issue as the sony. Bigger stronger body, DPAF, Much bigger sensor (biggest one here, two different camera classes) and lowlight performance (horrible on GH4) and DR.
I can't wait to play with fat colourful MJPEG files off the 5D IV and see how it does in 4K lowlight at 6400+ ISO.
My next video rig is probably going to be the 5D IV + Zucoto LCD loup + Rode mic + new 24-105mm F4/L.
Small, stabilized, simple, with cinema/broadcast quality files.
The 5D model, the MK II, is a camera that single-handedly started the ''DSLR Revolution'' which completely turned the video/cinema world upside down.
Then Canon made improvements to the 5DII on the III (real good improvements), but other manufacturers seemed to just keep pulling ahead in video technology and we've been waiting for Canon to strike back and come back as the video leader.
The biggest and most major downside with Canon DSLRs (and 5DIII) is video resolution/sharpness. Many think it's just that it doesn't shoot 4K video but the fact is that it shoots quite soft 1080p video. While it's contained in a 1080p wrapper it's much closer to 720p. This was fine in the earlier days but now companies are offering real 1080p resolution (Sony A7s) and beyond (4K) in cheaper and smaller cameras. Canon needed to address this ASAP before anything else. It's resolution after all that gives that WOW effect and why everyone is jumping to GH4/A7s. It looks impressive and sharp in YT in 1080p and 2160p.
The first Canon to address this is the 1DX II which offered incredible resolution at 4K (real DCI) (well the 1DC was the first and had that resolution way back but we won't count it, being at launch a 12.000 USD camera). But both cameras are really not at a price point to make an impact on the video world as a whole. It's a sports DSLR.
Which brings us to the 5D IV.
What does it have for us video peeps:
1- 4K MJPEG 500mbps.
People who are bitching about that and saying it should be H.264, have NEVER used that codec before and know very little about videography.
Motion Jpeg on the 1DC and 1DXII and 5DIV, is a MUCH superior codec to ALL competing 4K cameras out there. It's simply a much higher image quality. Much higher data and less to zero compression artefacts. And a little unknown fact is that MJPEG on the 5D is 500mbps 8bit 4:2:2, meaning it's EBU Broadcast approved and is ''broadcast quality/accepted'' for HD acquisition while all the other competitors simply cannot be used for that as they have 100mbps 8bit 4:2:0 codecs. So the MJPEG codec offers much higher colour and data information.
This comes in the form of larger file sizes, OF COURSE it does. Would you rather a lower quality codec in a smaller file? Canon could have easily done that. But they choose MJPEG to leap the competition and give a higher IQ. If you want small file sizes, th 5D IV and 1DX II can also shoot h.264 4:2:0 HD. Go ahead and shoot that.
If you ever used the Canon MJPEG 4K files you know what the image quality is like in terms of lack of compression artefacts, fine film grain, huge colour palette, much more versatile and grade-able image than H.264. Just better and better. Again. Want smaller files, shoot H.264 HD or convert your MJPEG files to anything on you PC, even Standard Def for all I know.
MJPEG 500Mbps 4:2:2 4K images is the most exciting part about the 5DIV video, as it means it's again for once has just has better IQ and higher end image than all the rivals. Not a downside. The fat files with Canon filmic and proven picture styles' colours, lowlight, 4K sharpness, will give very special images at that price point.
2- Slowmotion
The 5DIV gives us slowmotion capability. One is 2x slo-mo in 1080p. and 4X slo-mo in 720p.
While I wanted 4x at 1080p, its great we do have the ability to hand out slowmotion files for out clients. Wedding videographers will be using that 2x 1080p a lot for sure. And sports videographers will be using that 4x 720p.
3- Dual Pixel AF with Touch panel
No other video shooting device has this. It's the first time we can now shoot high quality, broadcast level, 4K 4:2:2 video, and have out focusing performed using a touch screen. This feature is HUGE. It almost eliminated the need for follow focus devices and even focus pullers on high end shoots. It proved to be that reliable and good on the 1DXII. It's magic. And best of all, works with all AF lenses. Now any inexperienced shooter can shoot large sensor video with organic focus pulls, and pros can forget about one burden (focus ring) and focus on composition, and this will be also extremlely handy for rigs and stabilization units like steadicams/glidecams/ronins/movi etc where previously your only option was to get a wireless follow focus device and hire someone to focus on a separate monitor for you. Now set to face detection, record. See how big this actually is? This technology will be scaled up in the far future to Alexa/Red type cameras I am sure.
From the 5D II to III Canon tried to fix the problems of shooting video on DSLRs and these will translate to the MK IV surely so add those too.
1- Eliminated moire and aliasing
2- Gave good audio with silent manual control with the touch pad
3- Gave a headphone out to monitor audio
4- fixed overheating issues and extended recording to the max 30min vs 12min.
5- offered a dedicated record and video liveview mode with meters, dedicated expsoure
6- gave a 1080p HDMI output for monitoring and clean for recording
So the 5D IV is a very interesting video proposition. The things it lacks are:
1- We don't know if the 4K is FF or a 1:1 crop. Which would be a near APS-C one. Still good but we hope for FF. The 1:1 crop from the 20mp 1DXII gives a small crop to APS-H but at 30mp 1.6/1.7x crop is not small and is a totally different sensor size. This could potentially make the 5D a 4K APS-C camera and a FF HD camera.
2- Canon refuses to give non "C" cameras "C"-Log. Which increases highlight DR by at least 1-2 stops (time to install that Cinestyle again to get LOG images -which works very well with the 1DXII btw-)
4- Canon refuses to give manual focus users simple aids like peaking.
5- Of course no EVF and tilty LCD, so you'll get those screen loups out of the closet again (which do make great EVFs to be honest but just another thing to carry and makes the camera bigger)
The biggest missing detail by far is the 4K video crop. If it's a whole sensor downsample from 30mp to 4K (which Canon has never done) or a 1:1 APS-C+ Crop.
So how does it leap other common rivals?
A7s/r: 500mbps 4:2:2 vs 10mbps 4:2:0, higher image quality overall, much better colour rendition and skin tones, much stronger body and button layout. Magical focus system and bigger cheaper lens line-up. Much bigger battery life and no overheating issues.
GH4: Same huge codec difference so higher data rate but the Panny has good Canon-like colours so that's not issue as the sony. Bigger stronger body, DPAF, Much bigger sensor (biggest one here, two different camera classes) and lowlight performance (horrible on GH4) and DR.
I can't wait to play with fat colourful MJPEG files off the 5D IV and see how it does in 4K lowlight at 6400+ ISO.
My next video rig is probably going to be the 5D IV + Zucoto LCD loup + Rode mic + new 24-105mm F4/L.
Small, stabilized, simple, with cinema/broadcast quality files.
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