Everything We’ve Been Told About The Canon EOS R7 Mark II

[Michael Clark]

I notice from the gear list in your signature that you don't actually have any mirrorless camera at all, just DSLRs.

I suggest that you get some actual experience with a Canon mirrorless camera before you start telling those of us using them that it would be great for Canon to change the next model of the camera we're used to to make it more like some old DSLR you're used to.

If you look at the back panel of the R5 and R6 series cameras, you'll see their joysticks are in essentially the same position as the nested dial and joystick of the R7. Only on your 5D and 7D series DSLRs is the joystick lower down on the back. (And on the oversized R1 and R3 models that have permanent battery grips - so it can be reached when the camera is held in portrait orientation.)

So if you intend to use the joystick on any of the Canon mirrorless bodies that don't have a permanent battery grip you'll be reaching your thumb to the same place as the R7 combo.

I have no objection to Canon putting a third control dial in the traditional location onto an R7/II - just leave the one by the viewfinder alone. You do know that you can set any of the controls on an EOS camera to do whatever you want (or nothing) - right?

When is the last time I've updated the gear signature for my account? I have no idea how long it's been. Not to mention that just because I don't own certain cameras does not mean I have not shot with them. Some more than once. However, I'm not free to publicly post or share most of what I've done with cameras I do not own.

As to your assertion that the Joystick & Quick Control Dial on the R5 and R6 is in the same position as the abomination on the R7: That is categorically untrue. The joystick may be in a similar location, but the dial around it on the R7 means the thumb must curve over the dial to get to the joystick, instead of lying flat on the diagonal area of the rubber (?) material below right of the joystick. The Quick Control Dial is, of course, in a totally different position also much more accessible with one's thumb, and closer to the left edge so that arching the thumb a bit to not press the Set button when undesired is not a problem.

The EOS R5 Mark II and R6 Mark II



The EOS R7

 

[Michael Clark]

I notice from the gear list in your signature that you don't actually have any mirrorless camera at all, just DSLRs.

I suggest that you get some actual experience with a Canon mirrorless camera before you start telling those of us using them that it would be great for Canon to change the next model of the camera we're used to to make it more like some old DSLR you're used to.

If you look at the back panel of the R5 and R6 series cameras, you'll see their joysticks are in essentially the same position as the nested dial and joystick of the R7. Only on your 5D and 7D series DSLRs is the joystick lower down on the back. (And on the oversized R1 and R3 models that have permanent battery grips - so it can be reached when the camera is held in portrait orientation.)

So if you intend to use the joystick on any of the Canon mirrorless bodies that don't have a permanent battery grip you'll be reaching your thumb to the same place as the R7 combo.

I have no objection to Canon putting a third control dial in the traditional location onto an R7/II - just leave the one by the viewfinder alone. You do know that you can set any of the controls on an EOS camera to do whatever you want (or nothing) - right?

I notice that you joined Canon Rumors at almost the exact same time another very active member here was banned. I also noticed that you both like to use the same word to describe cameras which you think Canon should not/would not bring to market based on your own anecdotal experience.

 

[Michael Clark]

My definition of a unicorn is a creature or camera that exists only in someone's imagination. As it did really exist, the 7D Mark II was not a unicorn. Your hoped for "mirrorless 7D Mark II" or "APS-C R5" will be unicorns unless and until they're actually put on the market.

Unicorn, huh? Who else used to use the same word to describe a potential R7? Didn't he get banned about the same time you joined?

 

[Michael Clark]

Anybody coming from a DSLR will not like the battery life of a mirrorless. She's been known, especially in migration season, to head out in the morning with the camera and shoot all day. A battery grip would have gone a long way to helping her enjoy her R7. That and a little more substantial 'heft' for the inevitable times that it gets banged around off trees and branches.

She just ordered a used EF-S 18-135 USM lens, and an adapter, thinking that the heavier lens would give a better feel. I think, really, that that 18-150 lens is such a lightweight thing that it feels incredibly cheap. Like a toy. A rather expensive toy, given what it costs new. That lens might have been what made her feel like it was less of a camera than her 2 Nikon DSLR bodies. Her 7200 died, but way over 200k shots on it, so it served her well for a long time.

As for me, I always carry an extra battery or two when I go out to photograph birds, or just about anything else really. I did the Cleveland air show Labor Day weekend, and swapped out the battery about 3/4 of the way through the show, just before the Thunderbirds showed up, so that I wouldn't have to deal with a dead battery at the wrong time. It still had around 10% on it, but definitely better to have a fresh one in there.

Lack of any possible battery grip is one reason why I would never buy an R7. My right shoulder and its limited range of motion is to the point I can't hold the camera steady enough to shoot portrait orientation without vertical controls.

 

[Philnick]

Unicorn, huh? Who else used to use the same word to describe a potential R7? Didn't he get banned about the same time you joined?

I notice that you joined Canon Rumors at almost the exact same time another very active member here was banned. I also noticed that you both like to use the same word to describe cameras which you think Canon should not/would not bring to market based on your own anecdotal experience.

I have no idea who you're referring to. I have never participated here under any name other than the one I currently use, and as you note, whoever he was, he was gone by the time I got here. (My real name is in the URL for my photo website which has been in my signature for a long time, by the way - I have nothing to hide. My username is my nickname since college, over half a century ago.)

I do not appreciate being the target of such scurrilous accusations, which are the last resort of someone who is losing an argument.

PS You still have not said which if any R series camera you own - your gear list is still unchanged and only lists DSLRs. Occasional use - if such there has been - does not give rise to muscle memory, so you appear to be going by reference to muscle memory from your DSLRs.

PPS You also have not responded to my suggestions of simply adding another control dial to an R7 II in the standard location next to the rear screen and letting it take a battery grip. You probably know that the menu system on EOS cameras makes it trivially easy to disable the dial around the joystick if it's such an annoyance. Oh, and in case you didn't know, the joystick is a bit of an anachronism now, since on the R series, you can use your thumb on the rear screen to move the AF focus point while looking through the viewfinder, which allows for more fine control than the joystick does. I'll occasionally push in on the joystick to center the AF point, but that's about all I use it for.

PPPS I do not use "unicorn" to say a camera should not or would not be brought to market, merely to refer to cameras that can't serve as a point of reference - because they don't exist.

 

[MSH411]

I'm very hopeful that the R7 MkII does mirror the body style and layout of the R6 MKII and the other higher end bodies. The layout and design of the R7 along with the rolling shutter has kept me away from adding one. Shooting with it was awkward, the layout was uncomfortable as well as the size of the body to small. Muscle memory from my other R bodies simply caused this body to be ineffective. The nested joystick on the R7 in my opinion was a PITA.

I know that some may say it falls on me but I would respectfully disagree. Here's a crazy idea, standardize the buttons functionality across the R lineup so that people that use the gear can work across different bodies without having to learn a different layout. If rumors are true regarding the R7 MkII I will finally get to add the APS-C I wanted to my gear, if the layout remains the same and it's still has challenges with excessive rolling shutter I'll stick with what I own.

 

[Philnick]

You full-framers feel entitled to change the APS-C model to make it into just one more copy of your cameras.

How about our muscle memory? There are more of us APS-C users than of you, BTW. I've proposed a few things to mollify you (see post #165 in this thread, half an hour ago) but I get silence in response. No! You want it to be made big and heavy like your cameras. That's not the mission of APS-C.

Letting it take a battery grip would solve the "too light!" complaint for those who want it heavy. Adding a third control dial in the traditional location should mollify you, but you say "No! Kill off the dial by the viewfinder!" I say slide your thumb on the screen instead of using the joystick (which is vestigial on mirrorless) - more accurate and avoids conflict with that control dial.

Grow up and show some consideration for those of us who actually use the R7 and like it. Stop demanding that we adapt to your cameras' control layout.

And you wonder why Canon has kept delaying the R7 II. This internecine dispute is a large part of it.

 

[MSH411]

You full-framers feel entitled to change the APS-C model to make it into just one more copy of your cameras.

Wow and you criticized Michael, fairly hostile and arrogant response by you given I simply stated my opinion on what I would like to see if I purchased the R7 MkII. You possibly wound a bit tight Phil?

I never mentioned big or heavy I addressed standardized layout and design across the platform of "higher end" bodies. If you did some research you would find there are many professionals (especially wildlife) that currently use the R7 that are advocating for these upgrades. I simply agree.

You make accusations without knowledge and you get you panties in a bunch because others don't agree with you regarding the the specs on the R7 MkII.

Grow up and show some consideration for those of us who actually use the R7 and like it. Stop demanding that we adapt to your cameras' control layout.

I would suggest you take your own advice and stop pounding your feet like a petulant child because others have a different wish list or opinion of what they would like to see from Canon regarding the R7 MkII.

If you like the R7, it's layout and design the good news is you own it so you can continue your love. By a second one, more love.....

Others that owned cameras like the 90D (and other ASP-C DSLR) are looking for something different, something better. No reason for you to get so twisted.

And here’s the crazy thought Phil, grownups, adults, promote collaboration and independent thoughts. They engage in adult conversations without hostility and embrace others’ opinions even when they don't agree.

 

[P-visie]

And you wonder why Canon has kept delaying the R7 II. This internecine dispute is a large part of it.

You have posted that theory before and I have explained that these fundamental design decisions are not taken in the last few months of the development. I strongly suspect that the you continue to spread your theory because you hope that Canon will not change the size and control layout. Hope = deferred disappointment.

I have used Canon full frame and APS-C camera side by side since the original 5D was released in 2003 until 2020 when I got the R5. I did not buy the R7 because I did not like the size, layout of the controls, viewfinder and lack of a grip. If the R7 Mk II mirrors the size and controls of the R5 Mk II, it is very likely that I will buy one. And, it is anecdotal evidence, I know several photographers that have the same opinion and buying intention.

 

[Philnick]

I'm very hopeful that the R7 MkII does mirror the body style and layout of the R6 MKII and the other higher end bodies. The layout and design of the R7 along with the rolling shutter has kept me away from adding one. Shooting with it was awkward, the layout was uncomfortable as well as the size of the body to small. Muscle memory from my other R bodies simply caused this body to be ineffective. The nested joystick on the R7 in my opinion was a PITA.

I know that some may say it falls on me but I would respectfully disagree. Here's a crazy idea, standardize the buttons functionality across the R lineup so that people that use the gear can work across different bodies without having to learn a different layout. If rumors are true regarding the R7 MkII I will finally get to add the APS-C I wanted to my gear, if the layout remains the same and it's still has challenges with excessive rolling shutter I'll stick with what I own.

Not making anything up. You said you want a big full-frame camera with the R7's sensor.

Still not getting any response to my proposals of compromises (change the D-pad by the rear screen into a third traditional control dial and add battery grip compatibility). Have you even thought about them? Your turn.

Remember that while Canon may make more money on each full-frame body they sell, they sell a lot more APS-C bodies, which means they risk alienating lots of R7 users if they make the R7 II into an R5/R6 with an R7 sensor. You've gotten two generations of the R5 and R6 (with an R6 III coming). Let us have an improved - not enlarged and upscaled - R7 II.

Why not instead lobby Canon to put an 83mp sensor into the R5 III so you can have 32.5mp in crop mode on that body with no need to learn inconsistent control layouts? Then you wouldn't need to carry two cameras.

PS I've used Canon since the 35mm FT-QL SLR in 1968, and APS-C DSLRs since then - see the history in my signature. I found the ever-increasing size of Canon's DSLRs with every upgrade led me to use them mainly on vacation until the R7 came out, taking the form factor back to the size and weight of the FT-QL, leading me to use it much more often.

 

[MSH411]

Not making anything up. You said you want a big full-frame camera with the R7's sensor.

Still not getting any response to my proposals of compromises (change the D-pad by the rear screen into a third traditional control dial and add battery grip compatibility). Have you even thought about them? Your turn.

Remember that while Canon may make more money on each full-frame body they sell, they sell a lot more APS-C bodies, which means they risk alienating lots of R7 users if they make the R7 II into an R5/R6 with an R7 sensor.

PS I've used Canon since the 35mm FT-QL SLR in 1968, and APS-C DSLRs since then - see the history in my signature. I found the ever-increasing size of Canon's DSLRs with every upgrade led me to use them mainly on vacation until the R7 came out, taking the form factor back to the size and weight of the FT-QL, leading me to use it much more often.

No you are making things up. "I'm very hopeful that the R7 MkII does mirror the body style and layout of the R6 MKII"

Key words, my words since you seem to miss it and made up what you believe it stated "body style and layout". I never said anything about wanting a big full frame camera.

It appears that attempting to have an adult conversation with you is an act of futility and quite frankly a moot point at this juncture. As P-visie has already stated "I strongly suspect that the you continue to spread your theory because you hope that Canon will not change the size and control layout. Hope = deferred disappointment."

And why would there be any response to your proposals of compromises, the R7 MkII is in it's final approach and Canon isn't going to modify their business plan based on your proposals of compromises. Besides, if you read, really read the thread and digest peoples actual written words you will find that the majority are pleased with what is perceived as the new Canon R7 MkII specs for release. Here are a couple publications overview on the projected R7 MkII specs. So far I haven't seen one that mentions the form factoring remaining as is.... oh well

• Shutter Count: Ergonomics may be refined to match the EOS R5 Mark II layout, including re-positioned controls and a higher resolution OLED viewfinder with 0.9x magnification.
• Canon Rumors: ergonomics similar to the EOS R5 Mark II. This has been talked about for quite some time. While Canon did some unique things with the EOS R7, the layout is polarizing. I personally can't stand the way the EOS R7 is laid out. This would probably mean the joystick and scroll wheel moving back to where we'd expect them to be on prosumer RF cameras.
• Digital Camera World: Larger Form Factor, the R7 Mark II might feature a larger form factor compared to its predecessor. While this means the camera may be less compact, it could translate to better ergonomics and handling.

 

[Philnick]

We'll see who's right - in about a year, I expect, so we're hardly in the last few months of development.

In the meantime, I've "upgraded" my R7 to avoid low light noise - my principal desire in the next version - by supplying it with reasonably fast lenses.

 

[AlanF]

When the rubber of the R7 eyepiece needed replacing after about 6 months from new, Canon tried to get out of its warranty obligations on the grounds the eyepiece was an accessory! Compare this with Swarovski. The one of the rubber eyecup rings of my 3-year old binoculars came off and was lost, and Swarovski within two days sent me a pair of new eyecups as it was within their 10 year warranty.

 

[Dragon]

When the rubber of the R7 eyepiece needed replacing after about 6 months from new, Canon tried to get out of its warranty obligations on the grounds the eyepiece was an accessory! Compare this with Swarovski. The one of the rubber eyecup rings of my 3-year old binoculars came off and was lost, and Swarovski within two days sent me a pair of new eyecups as it was within their 10 year warranty.

Swarovski includes the warranty in the pricing .

 

[Michael Clark]

PPS You also have not responded to my suggestions of simply adding another control dial to an R7 II in the standard location next to the rear screen and letting it take a battery grip. You probably know that the menu system on EOS cameras makes it trivially easy to disable the dial around the joystick if it's such an annoyance. Oh, and in case you didn't know, the joystick is a bit of an anachronism now, since on the R series, you can use your thumb on the rear screen to move the AF focus point while looking through the viewfinder, which allows for more fine control than the joystick does. I'll occasionally push in on the joystick to center the AF point, but that's about all I use it for.

Again, not everyone's thumbs can reach the LCD touchscreen from the right side of the camera. My left thumb is otherwise occupied seeing that it is attached to my left hand, which properly supports the weight of the lens and camera with the heel and palm. My left fingers operate the ring(s) on the lenses. On some zoom lenses the left thumb moves the zoom ring while the fingers operate the focus ring if needed.

The 5D Mark IV allows setting AF points with the LCD screen in Live View. I've used it when doing tripod mounted landscape work. But that's also with a wired shutter release when the time comes to actually take the photo, so I'm not holding the camera at all in that situation.

I also shoot left-eyed because Canon cameras have enough diopter adjustment to accommodate my uncorrected left eye, but not my more myopic uncorrected right eye. So my nose is pressed on the right half of the touchscreen. I used to wear contact lenses (which the diopter adjustment could barely accommodate in the opposite direction due to advancing presbyopia), but as I've aged my eyes no longer tolerate the semirigid RGPs required for my astigmatism that I wore for around 40 years. I can't stand shooting with eyeglasses, so I take them off and use the viewfinder adjusted to to work with my uncorrected left eye.

 

[Michael Clark]

Remember that while Canon may make more money on each full-frame body they sell, they sell a lot more APS-C bodies, which means they risk alienating lots of R7 users if they make the R7 II into an R5/R6 with an R7 sensor. You've gotten two generations of the R5 and R6 (with an R6 III coming). Let us have an improved - not enlarged and upscaled - R7 II.

The vast majority of those APS-C bodies Canon made tons of money on were not 7-Series bodies. They were x0D, xx0D/Rebel, and xx00D/Rebel bodies. I'd venture to say they've also sold a ton more R10, R50, and R100 bodies than R7 bodies.

You can claim Canon risks alienating "lots of R7 users" if they go back to the layout of the 7D, 7D mark II, 80D, 90D, etc. How do you know they didn't alienate a LOT MORE potential R7 buyers who took a pass because of the ridiculous R7 control layout? I've heard MANY say they didn't buy the R7 because it was laid out too different from their R6 or R5 bodies. You're the ONLY person I've ever heard say they want the R7 Mark II to continue the divergent layout.

Again, look at history. Canon introduced the EOS R with the goofy little Multi-Function slide bar thingy. A few people liked it. The vast majority who bought an EOS R hated it and wanted Canon to not put one on the next body they would consider buying. Canon decided they could sell more cameras by making the R5 and R6 closer to the traditional 5-Series, 6-Series, and 7-Series layout and eliminated the Multi-Function slide bar from subsequent bodies.

 

[AlanF]

Swarovski includes the warranty in the pricing .

It's all very odd. They have this very strange business model based on quality, durability and an after sales service for even their cheapest models, and people still buy them. The serious birders must be off their heads as 9/10 here have a pair of their binoculars. Fortunately, we don't have to put up with such nonsense from the camera makers unless we buy their top of the range goods.

 

[Philnick]

Again, not everyone's thumbs can reach the LCD touchscreen from the right side of the camera. My left thumb is otherwise occupied seeing that it is attached to my left hand, which properly supports the weight of the lens and camera with the heel and palm. My left fingers operate the ring(s) on the lenses. On some zoom lenses the left thumb moves the zoom ring while the fingers operate the focus ring if needed.

The 5D Mark IV allows setting AF points with the LCD screen in Live View. I've used it when doing tripod mounted landscape work. But that's also with a wired shutter release when the time comes to actually take the photo, so I'm not holding the camera at all in that situation.

I also shoot left-eyed because Canon cameras have enough diopter adjustment to accommodate my uncorrected left eye, but not my more myopic uncorrected right eye. So my nose is pressed on the right half of the touchscreen. I used to wear contact lenses (which the diopter adjustment could barely accommodate in the opposite direction due to advancing presbyopia), but as I've aged my eyes no longer tolerate the semirigid RGPs required for my astigmatism that I wore for around 40 years. I can't stand shooting with eyeglasses, so I take them off and use the viewfinder adjusted to to work with my uncorrected left eye.

I wear a fully-soft soft contact lens in my right eye, which does provide astigmatism correction. I experimented with "progressive contacts" which were pointless - uncomfortably thick and only provided a very shallow range of focus. Instead I do "monovision" - one lens only, and the brain attributes any detail one eye sees to both. I suspect that contact lens technology has advanced over the years and you may be able to get comfortable ones now. I'll be 76 years old in January, so I've had time to experiment with many kinds of glasses and contacts, not just cameras.

I shoot right-eyed and use my right thumb on the screen. By the way - This might or might not work for you, but Canon lets you dedicate different regions of the touchscreen for focus point dragging, so you might be able to get it to work for you with your right thumb on the bottom right quarter of the screen, down near the traditional location for the control dial, further away from your nose even than the traditional joystick location. Set it not to "absolute" but "relative" location, which is how the joystick operates.

 

[MSH411]

I'll just leave this here for you Phil.

The 7 MkII maybe a big departure from the original

 

[Planterz]

Here are a couple publications overview on the projected R7 MkII specs. So far I haven't seen one that mentions the form factoring remaining as is.... oh well

• Shutter Count: Ergonomics may be refined to match the EOS R5 Mark II layout, including re-positioned controls and a higher resolution OLED viewfinder with 0.9x magnification.
• Canon Rumors: ergonomics similar to the EOS R5 Mark II. This has been talked about for quite some time. While Canon did some unique things with the EOS R7, the layout is polarizing. I personally can't stand the way the EOS R7 is laid out. This would probably mean the joystick and scroll wheel moving back to where we'd expect them to be on prosumer RF cameras.
• Digital Camera World: Larger Form Factor, the R7 Mark II might feature a larger form factor compared to its predecessor. While this means the camera may be less compact, it could translate to better ergonomics and handling.

I'm not discounting the validity of this, but I have to point out that this isn't necessarily 3 sources; in this case it's more likely there's 3 sites repeating a single source, each with their own extrapolations of the info they've been given.