Canon RF 300-600mm Update…. Again

[Quack]

....

I do not understand why people like you not only put up with Canon's locked mount BS and yesteryear sensor tech, but defend the company for it. It's an absurd position to take.

I put up with Canon's locked mount BS because I am a mature adult. I understand that Canon believes that it will be negatively impacted if it allows 3rd party AF lenses to be made without a financial agreement with 3rd party lens makers. I understand they are a business trying to make the most profit they can. This makes them exactly the same as Sony, Nikon, and all other camera brands. Sony elected to allow 3rd party lenses for exactly the same reason - they felt it was necessary to build their sales figures. Now, they are trying to limit the functionality of 3rd party lenses, apparently believing that they accomplished their original goal, and now see 3rd party lens makers as a negative. For people who want 3rd party AF lenses, I have no argument with them if they decide to choose another brand.

Personally, I have no issue with Canon, as i have no interest in 3rd party lenses. I understand that companies make decisions to try and maximize profits, so their is nothing to defend or not defend.

However, the fact that you mention Canon's "yesteryear sensor tech,", completely removes any credibility from your comments, and seems to reveal that you are just trolling, as Canon's sensor tech has been at the same level as Sony and all other sensor makers for the past 7 or 8 years or so.

 

[neuroanatomist]

I do not understand why people like you not only put up with Canon's locked mount BS and yesteryear sensor tech, but defend the company for it. It's an absurd position to take.

I see no need for 3rd party lenses, so why would I care that the there are no 3rd party FF autofocus lenses for the RF mount? Clearly, the majority of camera buyers out there, and the majority of mirrorless camera buyers, are not sufficiently bothered by this 'issue' to buy another brand. Yesteryear sensor tech? Now, that's an absurd comment...to the point of just sounding puerile.

Defending? I suppose you perceive it that way because you're on the offensive here (in addition to being personally offensive). What I have done is state facts, e.g., "Canon leads the mirrorless ILC market," and "The R100 is an entry-level camera." What you have done is lie, e.g., "Sony sells the most mirrorless cameras," and make silly value judgements, e.g., "The R100 is garbage," and in both cases repeated those absurdities like a petulant child.

So let me repeat: grow up.

 

[John D P]

I'm old and getting older waiting for this lens. Shooting wildlife and birds of prey. The Rf 100-500 is my workhorse, but I want to upgrade. I want that extra 100m to 600mm in an "L" series lens. I like the versatility of a zoom, so I'm not into primes.

The EF 200-400 f4 with teleconverter was considered a great wildlife lens. A variable aperture of 4.0 to 5.6 for the 300-600, would be similar. But I can live with 5.6. Just release something!!!!

 

[EricN]

I wish when people were joking they wouldn't be so obvious. Who on Mars could possibly believe this Mumbai person is serious? I'm not that silly!

 

[mimbu]

I see no need for 3rd party lenses, so why would I care that the there are no 3rd party FF autofocus lenses for the RF mount? Clearly, the majority of camera buyers out there, and the majority of mirrorless camera buyers, are not sufficiently bothered by this 'issue' to buy another brand.

Canon may sell the most MILCs but they do not sell the majority of MILCs. Not even with shoveling garbage out the door as fast as they can crank it out are they able to make that claim.

Yesteryear sensor tech? Now, that's an absurd comment...to the point of just sounding puerile.

FSI sensors are indeed yesteryear sensor tech. Nikon has never made a FF MILC with an FSI sensor. Sony hasn't done so since the A7SII was released in 2015. As a 12mp sensor, FSI wasn't such a big deal. (The A7SIII is 48mp BSI with on-sensor binning for 12mp readout and even better low light / low noise performance.)

Defending? I suppose you perceive it that way because you're on the offensive here (in addition to being personally offensive). What I have done is state facts, e.g., "Canon leads the mirrorless ILC market," and "The R100 is an entry-level camera." What you have done is lie, e.g., "Sony sells the most mirrorless cameras," and make silly value judgements, e.g., "The R100 is garbage," and in both cases repeated those absurdities like a petulant child.

So let me repeat: grow up.

You remind me of a particularly vile ex from my 20s. She could never let go of anything that happened in the past. I explained my MILC comment. I granted that Canon currently sells more MILCs than Sony. I even explained that it's because Canon is (and long has been) the best in the world at shoveling garbage out the door. Maybe in time Sony will become a garbage pedlar too, and things will get closer again. Unlike you, if Sony starts shoveling garbage out the door, I will happily call them out on it.

So let me repeat: grow up.

Projection at its fineist.

 

[EricN]

Unlike you, if Sony starts shoveling garbage out the door, I will happily call them out on it.


Projection at its fineist.

Is the higher than normal noise on Sony a9iii garbage?

 

[mimbu]

I put up with Canon's locked mount BS because I am a mature adult. I understand that Canon believes that it will be negatively impacted if it allows 3rd party AF lenses to be made without a financial agreement with 3rd party lens makers. I understand they are a business trying to make the most profit they can.

Being a bootlicker does not make you a mature adult. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Sony elected to allow 3rd party lenses for exactly the same reason - they felt it was necessary to build their sales figures. Now, they are trying to limit the functionality of 3rd party lenses, apparently believing that they accomplished their original goal, and now see 3rd party lens makers as a negative.

From a photography standpoint, the limits on 3rd party glass have not changed.

For video, as Sony has added additional firmware features such a focus breathing compensation, they have not made those features available to 3rd party lenses. However some features such as gyro stabilization for video do work with 3rd party glass.

Ultimately I hope that Sony allowing 3rd party FF AF glass will force Canon into doing the same thing, but with fewer restrictions than Sony has. If that happens, Sony is more likely to ease restrictions as well.

The consumer wins when companies compete. The consumer loses when companies refuse to compete.

Personally, I have no issue with Canon, as i have no interest in 3rd party lenses. I understand that companies make decisions to try and maximize profits, so their is nothing to defend or not defend.

There's the bootlicking again. Companies should be regulated heavily and forced to provide choice to consumers. Open platforms should be the de facto standard across all industries. For example, it's wonderful to see Apple being forced to open their platform more. It's not enough, but it's a start. I hope with time that camera makers (all of them) are forced to provide open platforms as well.

Canon's sensor tech has been at the same level as Sony and all other sensor makers for the past 7 or 8 years or so.

This is demonstratively incorrect. Canon stuck another ancient FSI sensor into the R6III, and just cranked up the readout clocks. This resulted in a big enough drop in DR that they had to bake in NR at lower ISOs to compensate. Meanwhile Sony created an entirely new type of sensor that actually supports faster readout for the A7V, as well as dual gain readout and greatly improved DR. This sensor tech will move to the A7RVI and also into all of Sony's medium format sensors. It is a significant step forward from BSI which itself is a big step forward from FSI. Sony hasn't released a FF camera with an FSI sensor in over a decade.

Then we get to the GS sensor in the A9III, the first FF GS sensor with AF. That sensor did take a hit in DR and base ISO, but it is still an incredible achievement and step forward. Sync flash at any speed. 120fps with no sacrificies. And beyond that, stunning video performance that is almost as good as seen in $80k cine cameras. The CineD review was amazing.

Sony controls a huge percentage of the global sensor market, and as such spends a fortune on sensor R&D. Canon has little hope of keeping up and will probably eventually end up buying Sony sensors. Same as everyone else in the FF and MF world.

 

[mimbu]

Should I sell all my Canon gear and then rebuy Sony + 3rd party and lose money on the switch? Just because you say that I shouldn't put up with a closed ecosystem (for AF and only full frame)? Am I being absurd with my own money?

No, but defending Canon isn't the answer either. Openly pushing them to do better is the answer. Same as people did with Sony for things like proper weatherproofing on bodies when that wasn't a thing in the past.

You will be telling me to switch from Apple to something else next!

Apple is a great example because they are being forced by the EU to open their platform more, and to offer things like RCS compatibility. It's not enough yet and it's not global enough yet, but it is a step in the right direction. And yes, I am a long-time iPhone user. That doesn't mean that I won't call Apple out on their BS and their closed-platform practices.

Sony makes good sensors. Canon also makes good sensors.
In past, Sony had comparably great sensors but poor bodies compared to Canon's great bodies but older sensor tech. That isn't the case on either side now.

There is a very large gap in sensor tech between Canon and Sony. In fact between everyone and Sony. Sony created a brand new type of sensor that went into the Z6III (bad implementation by Nikon with no dual gain readout), the S1II (much better implementation by Panasonic), and now a 33mp version in the A7V. Meanwhile Canon stuffed another ancient FSI sensor into the R6III and just cranked up the readout clock. There are two full generations of sensor tech (and a lot of small other improvements) between FSI and the new "partially stacked" BSI sensors. They are not equal, and they don't perform equally.

 

[AlanF]

Ha! I remember him now.
A lot of turnover over the last 12 years

The troll dilbert was eventually outed and revealed to be an Aussie. He was so embarrassed that he manually deleted every one of his posts and disappeared. The cloak of anonymity was essential to him and I presume to many suchlike.

 

[mimbu]

Please be honest. You didn't write about the general situation of identifying any camera and any lens combination but specifically a very low quality named manufacturers lens against a very high quality named one, namely:

Sure, the same thing applies. Mix and match in a double-blind test and people will not be able to reliably identify which photos came from which camera or which lens. That's the reality of today's world, and with AI gunning for everything it is only going to get worse.

 

[mimbu]

Is the higher than normal noise on Sony a9iii garbage?

It sure was said to be by everyone who owned Canon and Nikon when the A9III came out and blew everything else in the market away. When the Z6III came out with much worse DR but none of the A9III benefits, Nikon users suddenly got quiet. Can't imagine why. The R6III has similar problems but with an even worse (FSI) sensor.

Is the A9III perfect? Nope, there is room to improve. And guess what? Sony spends truckloads on sensor R&D and they will improve it. Even in its current form it's a marvel of a sensor that is unmatched in any other hybrid camera sold today. It's not even close. But, if you want a camera with maximum DR at low ISOs, it is not the right tool for the job. It's also a poor choice for very high ISO use.

 

[Del Paso]

Friends!
When will we understand that it doesn't make sense to keep arguing with sect members, political fanatics, trolls or Sony fanboyz?
They never listen, convinced to be the beholders of Truth.
Let them keep their cute little tinfoil hats on and enjoy spreading their drivel !
If they have time to waste, let's not waste our time answering them.

 

[mimbu]

Friends!
When will we understand that it doesn't make sense to keep arguing with sect members, political fanatics, trolls or Sony fanboyz?
They never listen, convinced to be the beholders of Truth.
Let them keep their cute little tinfoil hats on and enjoy spreading their drivel !
If they have time to waste, let's not waste our time answering them.

The thing with Canon folks is that they have such a superiority complex that they can't help but answer. And will never admit that (a) Canon is way behind on sensor tech (and innovation in general, really) and (b) that Canon is the master of shoveling out garbage-tier cameras at rock-bottom prices.

At least Canon has finally caught up to Viltrox with VCM focus motors. So there's that.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Friends!
When will we understand that it doesn't make sense to keep arguing with sect members, political fanatics, trolls or Sony fanboyz?
They never listen, convinced to be the beholders of Truth.
Let them keep their cute little tinfoil hats on and enjoy spreading their drivel !
If they have time to waste, let's not waste our time answering them.

Indeed. I don’t mind debating, even arguing, with mature, intelligent people who hold a viewpoint different to mine. But arguing with petulant morons is pointless. The inability to simply admit that one was wrong (“I may have been mistaken,” is not doing so) is the hallmark of a blind fool, or a purposeful troll (and those are synonymous).

 

[David - Sydney]

The troll dilbert was eventually outed and revealed to be an Aussie. He was so embarrassed that he manually deleted every one of his posts and disappeared. The cloak of anonymity was essential to him and I presume to many suchlike.

Crikey! An Aussie... I don't remember that. Trolling vs doxxing is a troubling issue.

 

[David - Sydney]

No, but defending Canon isn't the answer either. Openly pushing them to do better is the answer. Same as people did with Sony for things like proper weatherproofing on bodies when that wasn't a thing in the past.

Apple is a great example because they are being forced by the EU to open their platform more, and to offer things like RCS compatibility. It's not enough yet and it's not global enough yet, but it is a step in the right direction. And yes, I am a long-time iPhone user. That doesn't mean that I won't call Apple out on their BS and their closed-platform practices.

There is a very large gap in sensor tech between Canon and Sony. In fact between everyone and Sony. Sony created a brand new type of sensor that went into the Z6III (bad implementation by Nikon with no dual gain readout), the S1II (much better implementation by Panasonic), and now a 33mp version in the A7V. Meanwhile Canon stuffed another ancient FSI sensor into the R6III and just cranked up the readout clock. There are two full generations of sensor tech (and a lot of small other improvements) between FSI and the new "partially stacked" BSI sensors. They are not equal, and they don't perform equally.

Mate... you may have joined in 2022 but I think that the majority of your posts are in this thread.
We are here to learn and to create images - not talking about how Sony's tech would magically make my pictures look better or how I must save money or somehow gain access to stuff available for other users.
Not sure what your end game is but it doesn't seem to be working. You aren't convincing anyone here so perhaps a different forum would be appropriate for your musing.
Clearly no point in continuing the conversation from me

 

[Bob Howland]

Mate... you may have joined in 2022 but I think that the majority of your posts are in this thread.
We are here to learn and to create images - not talking about how Sony's tech would magically make my pictures look better or how I must save money or somehow gain access to stuff available for other users.
Not sure what your end game is but it doesn't seem to be working. You aren't convincing anyone here so perhaps a different forum would be appropriate for your musing.
Clearly no point in continuing the conversation from me

Often, the best way to end the conversation is to let the other party have the last word.

 

[EricN]

It sure was said to be by everyone who owned Canon and Nikon when the A9III came out and blew everything else in the market away. When the Z6III came out with much worse DR but none of the A9III benefits, Nikon users suddenly got quiet. Can't imagine why. The R6III has similar problems but with an even worse (FSI) sensor.

Is the A9III perfect? Nope, there is room to improve. And guess what? Sony spends truckloads on sensor R&D and they will improve it. Even in its current form it's a marvel of a sensor that is unmatched in any other hybrid camera sold today. It's not even close. But, if you want a camera with maximum DR at low ISOs, it is not the right tool for the job. It's also a poor choice for very high ISO use.

That's an excessive amount of nuance compared to "garbage"

 

[Celts88]

Can the mods change the tread title as at present doesn't seem to have anything to do with RF 300-600mm

 

[AlanF]

Can the mods change the tread title as at present doesn't seem to have anything to do with RF 300-600mm

Is it too well trod for you?