Canon releases an official statement about the EOS R5 and EOS R6 heat concerns

[sanj]

Discussion on heat here at around 13 minute mark:

He mentions R6 is better for low light.

 

[sanj]

Yes you are absolutely correct, I believe Canon should not have released a camera that had uncontrolled heat issues. Reliability is more important to people who make a living doing this than niche features that gives you bragging rights. They could have done many things...released a separate camera with a bigger body and a fan (Panasonic S1H style), simply not included the features that it could not reliably support, or set hard limits that are so low it is more likely to hit the hard limit way before the thermal limit (i.e limit certain modes to 60s or 120s).

I do applaud them for adding a feature that seems to countdown how much time is remaining based on the current temperature, at least this adds some clarity, but you still won't have a clue what that countdown will say until you are on set and filming.

I have never said they misled anyone, Canon never said this was a Cinema camera replacement or that 8K would be unlimited, I do think they were contradictory at times by so heavily hyping video features that they knew were thermally limited, but I don't think Canon misled anyone at all....as I previously stated I just think people are taking it too easy on Canon because they documented their thermal problems but they are ignoring the fact that no other industry considers uncontrolled overheating acceptable.

Noooo. I am very happy they released this. And I will create art with it very happily. Very easily. Very effectively. You can continue complaining while rest of the world runs with it.

 

[sanj]

Actually it wouldn't...want to know why, because modern cars have rev limiters and speed limiters to make sure they are reliable and they do not overheat. If you drive any modern car at top speed for 20 min and it overheats then you need to get a new car because it means either the rev limiter or speed limiter are not doing their job.

I get all modern equipment has well documented constraints on use....specifically though....thermal shutdown concerns are unique because many factors can make the actual time of shutdown vary widely. You can predict a copier will break down because you printed too much, you can predict a car will break down because you ran over a pothole, you cannot predict how close you will come to a thermal shutdown prior to a video shoot.

In fact, if you drove any modern car at top speed for every single day of its existence right up until the warranty expired....if it overheated even once you would still be covered by the warranty. That's because you were still driving it within the specifications set forth by the manufacturer and those parameters are enforced by the speed limiter and rev limiter.

The 'RV limiter' is 20 mins. Simple. But very bad comparison in any case.

 

[Jonathan Thill]

We don’t have all the information but canon is implying that the camera may need to shut down due to heat. If you shoot 20 min videos then you could just switch the card out but when it’s a heat issue you have to turn off the camera and let it rest. Or use another camera
It’s really different

If you need to shoot for 20mins then don't shoot in a mode that overheats before or close to 20mins.

What Canon has done with Thermal Protection and giving the user a rough estimate on screen how long you can shoot in a given mode means there is no logical reason to try and record 10mins of 8K when the camera is saying you have 4 mins of 8k footage available at the current temperature of the camera.

To the make the same point that has been made over and over again in this thread and I am sure in every thread discussing the thermal protection "issue". If your needs as film maker exceed the capabilities of the R5 or R6 you will have to find a tool that can meets those needs.

 

[Bert63]

He mentions R6 is better for low light.

Bigger pixels = better light gathering. Not surprised - it’s reflected in the ISO ratings.

 

[Baron_Karza]

I think the biggest problem with this type of problem is the ambiguity of it all, the chart looks great on paper but the one thing that really stands out for me is that one little number at the top of the chart 73F, and we don't even know if humidity will make that worse. I live in FL and shoot in 90+ temps and 100% humidity 8 months out of the year, my gear sits in 120F and 100% humidity cars regularly while I shoot other portions of a shoot (aerial, photography, video, underwater, etc.) so it could be hours before I need a particular piece of gear.

When they release a chart like that I immediately start to wonder how those factors will affect it in the real world, and I can't even imagine standing around on a paid shoot telling a client we need to wait for my equipment to cool down. So I think this is why people are losing their minds over this...these cameras were heavily marketed towards hybrid video/photo shooters but there are so many caveats in the video department that it's too risky to really use on a paid hybrid shoot. So in that case you are back to using something else for those scenarios and for hybrid shooters with paying clients this is a let down.

If all you need are video clips of your kids running around, or you are shooting personal projects, these are fantastic cameras, but no way would I use either of these cameras for a wedding, for a commercial promo video shoot, for a music video shoot, for pretty much any of the work that I do; there's too much of a risk of waiting for a brick to cool down.

My own personal pet peeve doesn't even have anything to do with overheating....why on earth Canon equips cameras with two card slots then only lets you create backup recordings for photography and not video is completely beyond me.

I've read a lot of your posts in this thread and I'm in agreement with everything your are saying (as far as I recall). Most of it is about the heat issue. What upsets me the most is that it's in 4k (I have no interest in 8K), and that 73F number and no idea when it's greater.

This was also interesting, as you pointed out:
Richard Shepherd, Pro Product Marketing Senior Manager, said:
“With its ability to record in cinema industry-standard formats and codecs, the EOS R5 is an ideal lead camera for many productions but also, given its compatibility with cinema workflows, the camera will shoot comfortably on high-end production sets.”

But I haven't thought too much about the video only going to 1 card. Even in 1080 it only records to 1 card?

 

[PureClassA]

I am a photographer first as well and interested mostly in the 45MP. However, I shoot band and choir concerts quite often on my 1DX II.
If you tell us more what disappoints you most among the video limits, someone with better experience may suggest how would you use the camera once you get it. I am assuming that you want to frame, press record, take a comfortable sit, wait until the concert is finished and press stop. But I am assuming and I can be wrong.
Let us know.

H

I'm a little disappointed that there are so many limits in the video modes. I also like to shoot whole concerts for bands and even with no overheating limit in some modes I still have to restart the recording every 30 minutes...
But apart from that: I'm very excited and looking forward to my R5: As a photo camera (and I will use it this way mostly) it will be absolutely great. I'm pretty sure about that!

How long are these concerts? I shoot these sorts of things regularly myself. Going over 30 mins is normal. In fact, a 30 minute concert would be rather unusual.

Can I assume then you are recording externally in that case? Or are you stopping before the limit and starting a new shot? If you're shooting these things professionally for hire, I have to imagine you're shooting externally with something like this.

If you have 60-90 min concerts, you're pushing the envelope on internal cards anyway, even if you could go that long in a single shot, provided you're shooting in 4K... not to mention the fact that the LPE6N battery wouldn't even last that long, unless you have AC power into the camera.

So again, we keep going back to EXTERNAL recording, especially in the exact situation you just described. Because recording video in camera at or above 30 mins triggers additional licensing fees and registrations in certain countries, and Canon isn't going to pop that ceiling on a non-Cinema line camera. And there's no reason for them to.

I shot dual cameras last week with an EOS R and 1DX2. One wide, one tight/follow. EOS R was going to the Ninja collecting a master wide shot that ran uninterrupted for the length of the performance. 90 mins. 1DX2 was recording internally... cuz that's all it can do in 4k. Start Stop Start Stop Start Stop... Pain in the ASS to then have to 1) re-encode the footage to ProRes afterward for editing and then 2) have to manually sync up all the separate clips over the master wide timeline. Otherwise, you can't multi-cam edit.

This is why I can't wait for my R6 to show up. No more problem. Two cameras that can both sling 4k out to an external. One sync "CLACK" at the beginning right after I hit record. Now I have two, synced, single, uninterrupted clips recorded on much cheaper SSDs in lovely ProResHQ 4K codec. Drop right into Adobe Premier. Smooth as silk editing with perfect ready to roll multicam editing.

 

[PureClassA]

We don’t have all the information but canon is implying that the camera may need to shut down due to heat. If you shoot 20 min videos then you could just switch the card out but when it’s a heat issue you have to turn off the camera and let it rest. Or use another camera
It’s really different

Canon isn't implying. They are telling us. And it's only in a couple specific modes that will be far more seldom employed. 4k24 will be fine, 4k30 will be fine etc... The super-oversampled 4k modes may present issues at 30 mins. But SO WHAT?? Record it off camera. Done.

A $600 512GB CFExpress card will fill up completely at 20 mins of 8K shooting. Therefore, roughly the same for 4K120.

Again, what on earth is anyone shooting 4k120 for 20 mins straight, single clip? How often is this happening for this situation???

And if you really depend on that highly unusual need for your professional use, you are probably NOT going for an R5. You're buying a bigger Cinema camera.

 

[dtaylor]

He mentions R6 is better for low light.

Everyone believes that lower pixel density sensors are better for low light on the basis that "larger pixels collect more light." Which is true, but which ignores the reality that with gapless micro lenses the total amount of light collected will be the same for a given sensor size regardless of pixel density. This idea is then reinforced by pixel peeping, where the higher density sensor is enlarged more, and by qualitative differences in noise structure which are related to pixel density. The noise pattern in a high density sensor is sharper and therefore can appear to be more obtrusive.

In reality the noise quantity is nearly the same when images are presented at the same view size. As for the "sharper" aspect of noise on higher pixel density sensors: everything is sharper and more detailed. If it bothers you at a given view size, or in comparison to a lower density sensor at the same view size, simply trade off some of your excess sharpness/detail for a cleaner image using NR.

The other thing that everyone seems to believe is that we are making leaps and bounds in high ISO performance with each camera generation. In fact it is difficult to find a pair of FF cameras made in the last decade which show a 1ev difference at high ISO. Using DPReview's comparison tool I have to pit the Sony A7 mark II...known for having sub par high ISO for a FF sensor...against a Canon 1DX mark III. I cannot say the 1DX3 is a full 1ev better than a 5D mark III, a 6D, or a 5Ds/sR. If I pit a 5Ds/sR against much newer high density sensors in the D850 or A7rIII/rIV I'm hard pressed to see a half stop gain, which is about what I expect from an R5.

Mind you, 'common wisdom' is that the 5Ds/sR were horrible at high ISO, the Sony's are great at high ISO, and a low pixel density sensor like the 1DX mark III should wipe the floor with everything.

tl;dr - choose between the R5 and R6 for other reasons. They both will have good high ISO because they are both FF cameras. And if there is a difference to be found between them, it will likely be less than 0.5ev.

Edit: it's too bad Imaging Resource scaled back their operations. The Output Quality section of their camera reviews used to provide an excellent gauge of how cameras really compared at high ISO. You'll find their observations of actual prints often bucked the 'common wisdom' surrounding high ISO performance.

 

[Baron_Karza]

So in bringing up "rev limiters", you're essentially arguing that the camera shouldn't have been released with the higher-res, but limited, recording modes - that's fine, but that's a difference of opinion, not a scenario where anyone's been misled. And you can actually predict how much time you have before you have to pause due to heat because the camera tells you that before you start.

I'll be recording a surfing competition using 4K60. Camera is rated for 25 minutes in 73F weather. But it will be 95F with no clouds at noon. How long do I have before it shuts down? How long to do I need to wait for it to cool down? If I wait 10 minutes to cool down, how long will I be able to shoot again for (it's 10 minutes @73 but it's 95F). Anyone can answer me right now?, in exact minutes?

 

[gmon750]

Trolls and haters are out in full force. As if they're all upset about the 8K limits, conveniently ignoring the elephant in the room that in order to record 8K footage at max duration will require a 512GB CFAST card that runs about $600.

But hey... you keep pushing your agenda.

 

[BakaBokeh]

I'll be recording a surfing competition using 4K60. Camera is rated for 25 minutes in 73F weather. But it will be 95F with no clouds at noon. How long do I have before it shuts down? How long to do I need to wait for it to cool down? If I wait 10 minutes to cool down, how long will I be able to shoot again for (it's 10 minutes @73 but it's 95F). Anyone can answer me right now?, in exact minutes?

Sounds like a job that needs an external recorder.

Unfortunately don't think you'll get any definitive answers, not now. All we have is that chart, and observations on people who have used pre-production models.

But I would seriously use an external recorder in your use case.

Edit: I also heard that the camera will give you an estimated run time that factors in the current camera temperature.

 

[herein2020]

I've read a lot of your posts in this thread and I'm in agreement with everything your are saying (as far as I recall). Most of it is about the heat issue. What upsets me the most is that it's in 4k (I have no interest in 8K), and that 73F number and no idea when it's greater.

This was also interesting, as you pointed out:
Richard Shepherd, Pro Product Marketing Senior Manager, said:
“With its ability to record in cinema industry-standard formats and codecs, the EOS R5 is an ideal lead camera for many productions but also, given its compatibility with cinema workflows, the camera will shoot comfortably on high-end production sets.”

But I haven't thought too much about the video only going to 1 card. Even in 1080 it only records to 1 card?

To be certain I emailed Canon and they said the R6 and R5 do not support backup video recording. The R5 supports proxy recording but you have to shoot in 8K to get that.

I'll be recording a surfing competition using 4K60. Camera is rated for 25 minutes in 73F weather. But it will be 95F with no clouds at noon. How long do I have before it shuts down? How long to do I need to wait for it to cool down? If I wait 10 minutes to cool down, how long will I be able to shoot again for (it's 10 minutes @73 but it's 95F). Anyone can answer me right now?, in exact minutes?

Even Canon can't answer you and therein lies the problem, I have no problems with limits as long as I know what they are, but 4K60 is a very common format and there is no way to know ahead of time how long it will record in that mode.

 

[herein2020]

Trolls and haters are out in full force. As if they're all upset about the 8K limits, conveniently ignoring the elephant in the room that in order to record 8K footage at max duration will require a 512GB CFAST card that runs about $600.

But hey... you keep pushing your agenda.

No..the elephant in the room is that it also will overheat in 4K120, 4K60, and 4K30 depending on the scenario yet this is supposed to be acceptable. Did you read the whole chart or just the lines that fit your comment? The other elephant in the room is that the entire chart is based on an unrealistically low 73F ambient temp from a cold start.

 

[BakaBokeh]

but 4K60 is a very common format and there is no way to know ahead of time how long it will record in that mode.

Really? Not in this segment its not.

Canon is the first and only to come out with uncropped full frame 4K60 with the R5 & R6 in a hybrid mirrorless body.

 

[Baron_Karza]

Trolls and haters are out in full force. As if they're all upset about the 8K limits, conveniently ignoring the elephant in the room that in order to record 8K footage at max duration will require a 512GB CFAST card that runs about $600.

But hey... you keep pushing your agenda.

So are the Canon-Butt-Kissers appologizing for any flaws as not being an issues because All-Mighty-Canon-God is perfection.

Please, what is the point of these forums if we're restricted to only be able to write positive or write negative things about products. People have differences in opinions....I was only kidding in my above paragraph. I like to play devil's advocate to get a wide range of opinions to help with my purchasing decisions. But at the same time, need to make sure to separate fact from fiction.

 

[Keith_Reeder]

Bigger pixels = better light gathering.

Not true now, not true ever.

Come on: with pretty much every camera series in existence, pixel count has increased (so smaller pixels) and at the same time, noise performance has improved.

 

[Keith_Reeder]

This was also interesting, as you pointed out:
Richard Shepherd, Pro Product Marketing Senior Manager, said:
“With its ability to record in cinema industry-standard formats and codecs, the EOS R5 is an ideal lead camera for many productions but also, given its compatibility with cinema workflows, the camera will shoot comfortably on high-end production sets.”

No, I pointed that out.

He tried to pretend that Canon never said it, as it rather stomps on the unsupportable point he was trying to make.

 

[PureClassA]

I'll be recording a surfing competition using 4K60. Camera is rated for 25 minutes in 73F weather. But it will be 95F with no clouds at noon. How long do I have before it shuts down? How long to do I need to wait for it to cool down? If I wait 10 minutes to cool down, how long will I be able to shoot again for (it's 10 minutes @73 but it's 95F). Anyone can answer me right now?, in exact minutes?

As Bokeh said, sounds like you want an external recording device. The money you'll spend on a capable CFExpress card for 4k60 using an ALL-I codec will be at least $300 for a 256MB card. To be safe, you'll want to buy the $600 512MB card. Wanna record for in 4k60 for 90mins+ with room to spare? Pup out $1500 for the 1TB CFExpress card.

THEN, have fun editing 4k60 in that very robust yet unfortunately clunky codec. You'll be sending that through Media Encoder and letting your computer run over night to put it into ProResHQ so you can manipulate it without having any constant stutter in playback.

-OR-

Instead of spending all that money for ONE card, you could buy a $600 recorder that does 4k60 natively in ProResHQ with Canon C-Log 10bit 422 while using a cheap $130, 1TB SSD. (make sure you get the fastest SSD drives, not the cheapest ones). Then you also have a MUCH nicer monitor with all the bells and whistles for video recording and monitoring. Plus you don't have to wait hours and hours to re-encode your footage into a far more editing friendly format. PLUS - you can shoot on a single LPE6N battery for 90-120 mins vs recording internally at that 4k60 speed and having a battery only last a fraction of that, making you stop and reload 2-3 times IF you have the spares charged up to do it. Otherwise you may want to invest a few bucks in an AC adapter for the camera.

 

[Keith_Reeder]

Did you read the whole chart or just the lines that fit your comment?

Seriously?

From you?