Canon releases an official statement about the EOS R5 and EOS R6 heat concerns

herein2020

Run | Gun Shooter
Mar 13, 2020
267
364
As far as I know, in my use cases R5 won't overheat. What am I doing wrong?


If you know that you need a camera that won't overheat in 4K60 no matter what, why won't you take a camera that doesn't?

Just take notice that Canon doesn't yet produce a 5D-series camera with 4K60 for your use cases, and move on.

I actually already have two cameras that will shoot unlimited 4K60 for hours and will not overheat. My point all along is that people make it seem like it is completely unreasonable to expect a product with advertised features to be able to provide those features without thermal shutdown concerns just because it has the Canon logo on it.

I love Canon products, I really do, I think the R5 and R6 are fantastic cameras, I do not think they will fit my use case scenarios due to their limitations and my biggest concerns aren't even thermal. That's just my opinion and stating that on a Canon forum is perfectly acceptable. I know its not a popular opinion on a Canon forum, and I'm ok with that, but when people come back with a counter argument or state flat out wrong information like "it will only overheat if you try to record 20min of 8K" or "its perfectly acceptable to release a camera that can go into thermal shutdown when using its features" then yea I feel the urge to point out that that doesn't align with people's expectations for pretty much any other product.
 

Jordan23

EOS M50
Sep 13, 2014
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dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,743
1,307
I'm going to have to disagree, I have been in the high performance car scene for over 20 years, top speed runs are prevented by many other factors mainly the fact you can't find a driver, track, or roadway that can safely handle it.

What are you talking about? There are YouTube videos of people testing sports cars to their top speeds for crying out loud. I expressed that it is rare for lack of sufficient road length, and that is true, but it does happen. Clubs sometimes get access to closed freeways or really long runways. And yes, there are sections of the Autobahn where you can test most car's max speed.

There are also some examples of illegally testing and reaching a car's max speed on lengths of road which will support it, but naturally I would never condone trying such a thing.

You would need an absolutely impeccable track (like the salt flats) to do a top speed run

You're destroying your claim to 'be in the high performance car scene' here. Salt flats are large and flat, but actually present more safety challenges than a nice stretch of modern freeway or runway. The big one being less traction. Salt flats are infamous for speed runs, but cars are also modded for those runs.

and even then it probably wouldn't be for 20 min because you would probably still run out of track.

That was my point. Much shorter top speed runs are thermally stressful on motors and run the risk of damage. 20m...if we could setup a track to test cars at 20m max rpm/speed...would damage a lot of cars. Yet you claimed it's possible to run a car pedal to the metal, all day, every day until warranty expiration yet suffer no damage and have no warranty issues if you do. That's nonsense even with a rev limited vehicle.

Also, Ford refuses warranty service on hard run mustangs because they spun out, trashed the transmission, or took other actions that were out of spec for the car.

Ford will refuse warranty service on a Mustang or any car that you overheated through racing. They're tracking enough information in the ECU to determine that.

I did caveat my statement that if you stay within the operating specs of the vehicle you would still get warranty service.

Pedal to the metal max rpm for extended periods is not within the operating specs of any commercially available car or truck.

If you took a modern car and put it on a lift rack and put a fan in front of it to simulate the airflow that the car would get when driving it at top speed then put the gas pedal all the way to the floor for 20min while it is in drive and has a rotational drag equivalent to the drag the car would experience at top speed on a roadway guess what.....it would not overheat.

Whether a car will actually get so hot as to blow something and fail mid run...on pavement or in a test with a fan...depends entirely on ambient air temperature. But even at low temperatures the motor will run temps above normal and there will be excessive wear and potential damage. At high temps...kiss it goodbye. And yes, for most cars the ECU will record enough info for the manufacturer to void the warranty. But if you think a manufacturer is going to honor a warranty on a car you've run pedal to the metal for days...go right ahead and test that theory. Just not with my car :LOL:
 

Baron_Karza

EOS RP
Feb 17, 2019
343
412
As Bokeh said, sounds like you want an external recording device. The money you'll spend on a capable CFExpress card for 4k60 using an ALL-I codec will be at least $300 for a 256MB card. To be safe, you'll want to buy the $600 512MB card. Wanna record for in 4k60 for 90mins+ with room to spare? Pup out $1500 for the 1TB CFExpress card.

THEN, have fun editing 4k60 in that very robust yet unfortunately clunky codec. You'll be sending that through Media Encoder and letting your computer run over night to put it into ProResHQ so you can manipulate it without having any constant stutter in playback.

-OR-

Instead of spending all that money for ONE card, you could buy a $600 recorder that does 4k60 natively in ProResHQ with Canon C-Log 10bit 422 while using a cheap $130, 1TB SSD. (make sure you get the fastest SSD drives, not the cheapest ones). Then you also have a MUCH nicer monitor with all the bells and whistles for video recording and monitoring. Plus you don't have to wait hours and hours to re-encode your footage into a far more editing friendly format. PLUS - you can shoot on a single LPE6N battery for 90-120 mins vs recording internally at that 4k60 speed and having a battery only last a fraction of that, making you stop and reload 2-3 times IF you have the spares charged up to do it. Otherwise you may want to invest a few bucks in an AC adapter for the camera.

No, that's not at all what I want.
If you read my post again, I said
I want to know the exact amount of time in minutes.
 

Jordan23

EOS M50
Sep 13, 2014
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Kit.

EOS 5D Mark IV
Apr 25, 2011
2,208
1,524
I actually already have two cameras that will shoot unlimited 4K60 for hours and will not overheat.
I know. Although, in your described conditions(*), I wouldn't be so sure about GH5. Its autofocus may also be not up to the task.

My point all along is that people make it seem like it is completely unreasonable to expect a product with advertised features to be able to provide those features without thermal shutdown concerns just because it has the Canon logo on it.
My point is that if we are talking about R5 as a product of engineering, it's completely unreasonable to expect Canon's first attempt at mirrorless 5D-series camera to produce unlimited 8K, and quite reasonable to not expect it to produce unlimited 4K60.

If we are talking about Canon's misrepresentation of this product in its press releases as a product of marketing, then I can agree with you.

I know its not a popular opinion on a Canon forum, and I'm ok with that, but when people come back with a counter argument or state flat out wrong information like "it will only overheat if you try to record 20min of 8K" or "its perfectly acceptable to release a camera that can go into thermal shutdown when using its features" then yea I feel the urge to point out that that doesn't align with people's expectations for pretty much any other product.
Except that it's not "pretty much any other product". It's a 45Mpixel FF stills camera with DPAF, AI AF, 12/20 fps shutter - and some video functionality based on this stills functionality and complementing it.

*) Edit: sorry, it wasn't yours. It was Baron_Karza's.
 
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herein2020

Run | Gun Shooter
Mar 13, 2020
267
364
What are you talking about? There are YouTube videos of people testing sports cars to their top speeds for crying out loud. I expressed that it is rare for lack of sufficient road length, and that is true, but it does happen. Clubs sometimes get access to closed freeways or really long runways. And yes, there are sections of the Autobahn where you can test most car's max speed.

There are also some examples of illegally testing and reaching a car's max speed on lengths of road which will support it, but naturally I would never condone trying such a thing.



You're destroying your claim to 'be in the high performance car scene' here. Salt flats are large and flat, but actually present more safety challenges than a nice stretch of modern freeway or runway. The big one being less traction. Salt flats are infamous for speed runs, but cars are also modded for those runs.



That was my point. Much shorter top speed runs are thermally stressful on motors and run the risk of damage. 20m...if we could setup a track to test cars at 20m max rpm/speed...would damage a lot of cars. Yet you claimed it's possible to run a car pedal to the metal, all day, every day until warranty expiration yet suffer no damage and have no warranty issues if you do. That's nonsense even with a rev limited vehicle.



Ford will refuse warranty service on a Mustang or any car that you overheated through racing. They're tracking enough information in the ECU to determine that.



Pedal to the metal max rpm for extended periods is not within the operating specs of any commercially available car or truck.



Whether a car will actually get so hot as to blow something and fail mid run...on pavement or in a test with a fan...depends entirely on ambient air temperature. But even at low temperatures the motor will run temps above normal and there will be excessive wear and potential damage. At high temps...kiss it goodbye. And yes, for most cars the ECU will record enough info for the manufacturer to void the warranty. But if you think a manufacturer is going to honor a warranty on a car you've run pedal to the metal for days...go right ahead and test that theory. Just not with my car :LOL:

I said safely test a car's top speed...street racing on YouTube is not even close to doing anything safely. My salt flat example was the fact that there is one place where you could actually safely test a car's top speed and that's where top speed runs are usually safely tested by the experts who do those sorts of things. Sure they are doing it with modded vehicles due to traction issues but it was simply an example of one of the few places in the world where it can be safely done, just like it could be safely done on a rack with simulated street conditions.

Ford and I am sure every other car maker has exceptions in their warranties stating that racing will void their warranty...once again racing is outside the acceptable use for their cars and they state that clearly.

Show me anywhere in any car warranty that states if you drive the car at top speed every single day until the warranty runs out that if it overheats they will not cover it. You keep referring to racing which is clearly a use of a car that is not covered by the warranty.

To be honest with you I actually would like to test my theory and see what would happen if the engine did blow. Would they want to cover it? Definitely not, do I think I could get it covered under the Magnuson-Moss Act, yes I do, is it even possible to safely find out, probably not. :)

We are very much veering off of the topic of the R5 and R6.... so I'll put out a much simpler challenge.....show me a single common household product in anyone's house on this forum that will overheat if that owner uses the features that the product advertises it can support and is a use that is within the acceptable use for that product.
 
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BakaBokeh

EOS 90D
CR Pro
May 16, 2020
199
429
No, that's not at all what I want.
If you read my post again, I said
I want to know the exact amount of time in minutes.
You provided your use case. 4K60 shooting surfers. Both PureClassA and I thought a good solution is to use an external recorder. Sorry, if providing a workable solution is not what you wanted.

Not sure if you are just trying to make a point to bash the camera or not, but I don't see how you expect to get an answer to that specific question on a Canon Rumors forum.

As mentioned in my edit, the camera will provide you an estimated run time based on whatever shooting scenario you are in.

 

yeahright

EOS 90D
Aug 28, 2014
131
97
Many of the disappointed comments here make me critically reflect my own disappointment over the omission of GPS from the R5 because my 5D4 has it, even though I have not used this feature even once so far, and even though I am not even planning on buying the R5 anyway, because my current camera works just fine. Complaints about an unpurchased product at a level that sound like people feel personally insulted by the manufacturer because of the omission or perceived inadequacy of certain features are completely irrational.
 

Ramage

EOS R5
CR Pro
Aug 27, 2019
589
1,192
Just got a call from my pre-order camera shop asking for my CPS #.

It seems that Canon wants to get the Camera in the hands of their CPS Members first. My Camera shop says they are expecting only 40-50% of pre-orders will be filled on the first shipment. They have 33 Pre-orders and I am #16 so I am hoping it is 50% if I do not get the CPS bump.

Good news for Canon as it appears they have a sales hit on their hands, bad new for all of us as the wait might be longer than end of July(We all knew it was coming but hoped it was not true.)

I am sure Canon is ramping up production as we speak but moving the components providers to exceed the agreed order quickly can be tricky when they world is not grip with an pandemic so in these times it will be interesting to see how fast they can fill orders.
 
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Kit.

EOS 5D Mark IV
Apr 25, 2011
2,208
1,524
We are very much veering off of the topic of the R5 and R6.... so I'll put out a much simpler challenge.....show me a single common household product in anyone's house on this forum that will overheat if that owner uses the features that the product advertises it can support and is a use that is within the acceptable use for that product.
Any kind of consumer grade electrical product that works through applying a rotational force and can do it indefinitely long as far as a button is pressed or a switch is turned on. Mixers, grinders, drills, you name it.

Also, computer CPUs and SSDs, while they normally do not stop working during "normal" overheating, can switch into a less performing (and less power consuming) mode.
 

herein2020

Run | Gun Shooter
Mar 13, 2020
267
364
Any kind of consumer grade electrical product that works through applying a rotational force and can do it indefinitely long as far as a button is pressed or a switch is turned on. Mixers, grinders, drills, you name it.

Also, computer CPUs and SSDs, while they normally do not stop working during "normal" overheating, can switch into a less performing (and less power consuming) mode.

I completely like that response and I agree 100% that drills, grinders, etc. can definitely overheat during normal use. Computers will not overheat as long as the ambient temps are within the manufacturers acceptable use (the fans just ramp up) but I'm not going to nitpick, I will readily admit you are correct; there are common household items that will overheat during normal use and people have come to accept that fact; mind you for $4 drill bits, not so much for $4000 camera gear, but nonetheless those were great examples.

So yea, I'm going to sit back and see how bad the overheating is during real world use and hope that they add backup video recording to the R6.
 

herein2020

Run | Gun Shooter
Mar 13, 2020
267
364
Does the thermal limit apply if writing to an external recorder?

I think that's a great question and if I were you I'd email Canon support and ask them. Everyone assumes an external recorder will fix the issues (as do I) but I haven't seen Canon say that. Also, most of the time the HDMI port is more limited than internal recording so while you may be dodging the heat bullet you may still have unacceptable limitations. Personally I hate external recorders and find them impractical to lug around, keep charged, etc. but many people use them with great success.

If the heat buildup is due to the sensor vs the compression an external recorder may not fix the issue.
 

privatebydesign

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jan 29, 2011
10,529
5,798
I'll be recording a surfing competition using 4K60. Camera is rated for 25 minutes in 73F weather. But it will be 95F with no clouds at noon. How long do I have before it shuts down? How long to do I need to wait for it to cool down? If I wait 10 minutes to cool down, how long will I be able to shoot again for (it's 10 minutes @73 but it's 95F). Anyone can answer me right now?, in exact minutes?
R5, 95°F no shade, 4K60 has recording time of 19min 37sec before thermal safety shutdown.
Sony A7sIII 95°F no shade, 4K60 has recording time of 21min 18sec before thermal safety shutdown.

If you need to record over 25mins of 4K60 in 95°F heat you need an actively cooled video camera, Canon, Sony, etc all make models capable of those specs but nobody makes a stills orientated MILC capable of performing what you need. Whatever you get I’d suggest a $5 umbrella to help you and your camera out.
 

dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,743
1,307
I said safely test a car's top speed...street racing on YouTube is not even close to doing anything safely. My salt flat example was the fact that there is one place where you could actually safely test a car's top speed and that's where top speed runs are usually safely tested by the experts who do those sorts of things.

I'm not talking about 'street racing.' And I would pick a modern freeway or runway over a salt flat any day for a legal and closed off speed run. It would absolutely be safer, and 'safe enough' for a car in proper condition with a driver who is not an idiot. That's not to say you're going to live if a tire or suspension piece fails at 200 mph in your new Corvette or Porsche. But the odds of that happening are very low, and all you have to do is maintain a straight line until you've reached your top speed and can say you did it.

Show me anywhere in any car warranty that states if you drive the car at top speed every single day until the warranty runs out that if it overheats they will not cover it.

Warranty exceptions are not nearly so specific in their wording.

You keep referring to racing which is clearly a use of a car that is not covered by the warranty.

No, I am explicitly telling you that a sustained, max rpm, max speed run will likely cause thermal damage, up to and potentially including blowing the motor mid-run. And that manufacturers will not honor their warranties if you do this. Which is an example of a thermal limit on a product in an entirely separate industry from Canon.

We live in a universe governed by thermodynamics whether we want to film unlimited FF 8k in a fan-less camera or not.

To be honest with you I actually would like to test my theory and see what would happen if the engine did blow.

Like I said: just not with my car :LOL:

We are very much veering off of the topic of the R5 and R6.... so I'll put out a much simpler challenge.....show me a single common household product in anyone's house on this forum that will overheat if that owner uses the features that the product advertises it can support and is a use that is within the acceptable use for that product.

Notebook computers and smart phones can and do overheat and go into thermal protection. It's less evident because the first stage is to throttle down the chipset as opposed to giving a warning and shutting down. And most users performing most tasks aren't aware enough to recognize the down throttle. But they will also go into a warning/shutdown mode if throttling isn't sufficient given the task load and ambient temperatures. And there have been PLENTY of complaints about this over the years from people who push their computers.

If you think the complaining about Canon's thermal limits are bad now, just wait for the angry YT videos that come when millennial influencers try to edit 8k footage on their 13" MacBook Pros. APPLE IS *******.
 
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Kit.

EOS 5D Mark IV
Apr 25, 2011
2,208
1,524
Computers will not overheat as long as the ambient temps are within the manufacturers acceptable use
NVMe SSDs will switch into reduced performance (thermal throttling) mode if you do full speed read or write on them for too long. For some types of workloads, it might be better to select SSDs based on their thermal throttling speed, not on their max speed.
 
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