There may be a higher-end APS-C mirrorless announced in late 2020, early 2021 [CR2]

jolyonralph

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The appeal of the RF mount in this context is in the size of the body - more real estate for buttons, knobs, multi-controllers, the things that make quick setting changes possible.

Again, you can put the EF-M mount on any size body. Just because existing EF-M mount bodies are compact doesn't mean you can't do something much bigger with the same mount.
 
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zim

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There would not be as much benefit as you seem to think there might be.

The way CMOS sensors work, the entire width of the lines in the crop area would have to be read out and the ends could only be discarded in the digital processing stage.

So to get a 1.6X crop that gives 1/2.55 as many pixels, you still have to read and do ADC on 1/1.6X as many lines. That only yields a 37% lower readout time for 61% reduction in image size.

Soooo.... Your telling me there's a chance?

Hope you don't mind the wee joke. Thanks for the info, does sound pretty pointless
 
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Keith_Reeder

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Again, you can put the EF-M mount on any size body. Just because existing EF-M mount bodies are compact doesn't mean you can't do something much bigger with the same mount.
I say much the same elsewhere myself.
 
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I think forum users - who seem to need to very specifically define things - have decided that the R series is FF and the M series is APS-C. I'm not sure Canon has made that specific a distinction. Perhaps they are looking at it as the R series is for enthusiasts and pros looking for larger cameras and the M series is more for consumers looking for the most compact cameras. Having a crop sensor R series camera makes sense to me for those wanting something in the 7D line. 7D users are already used to using FF EF lenses - and there is no reason that Canon can't come out with RF lenses that will serve as wide angle on FF and standard on crop. No need for another line of lenses because that would be confusing.
 
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Keith_Reeder

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I think forum users - who seem to need to very specifically define things - have decided that the R series is FF and the M series is APS-C. I'm not sure Canon has made that specific a distinction. Perhaps they are looking at it as the R series is for enthusiasts and pros looking for larger cameras and the M series is more for consumers looking for the most compact cameras.
Canon refers to the M Line as being (my emphasis):
Big on quality, small in size
So it's probably a reasonable assumption.
 
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Steve Balcombe

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AS I said, give it another year or two and you might see an APS-C R5 variant at a lower price. The 7D2 was launched 2 and a half years after the 5D III.
No, what you actually said was "People would be expecting it to be half the price of the R5, and there's no way swapping out the FF sensor for an APS-C sensor will reduce canon's costs *that* much." Please don't try to rewrite history.
 
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Steve Balcombe

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RF lenses are heavy and expensive - why use them on a crop camera?
When I have an R5 and an "R7", plus RF lenses and legacy EF lenses, I will have one fully compatible and very versatile system. The moment you introduce EF-M into the equation it all falls apart.
 
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RF lenses are heavy and expensive - why use them on a crop camera?
Well, current 7D owners use EF lenses that are heavy and expensive. Which is why, it seems to me, that a R series crop camera makes much more sense than an M series successor to the 7D. And, in case you hadn't noticed, Canon just announced a few telephoto lenses that are lighter and/or less expensive.
 
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jolyonralph

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When I have an R5 and an "R7", plus RF lenses and legacy EF lenses, I will have one fully compatible and very versatile system. The moment you introduce EF-M into the equation it all falls apart.

I get this, but with respect this is only one part of the 7D market. Exactly how much of the market I can't be sure, but when I had my 7D mark 1 I was using EF-S lenses more often than EF lenses, even though I had a good select of EF lenses at the time. How much of the 7D market use the 7D as their *second* camera and keep a FF camera as well?

Only Canon will know whether it's commercially viable now to build an APS-C RF camera. Maybe they'll rely on people using EF-S lenses with it. They used to bundle the EOS-RP with an EF 24-105 lens before the cheap RF 24-105 was available, maybe they'll keep EF-S lenses around for this too.
 
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jolyonralph

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No, what you actually said was "People would be expecting it to be half the price of the R5, and there's no way swapping out the FF sensor for an APS-C sensor will reduce canon's costs *that* much." Please don't try to rewrite history.

Well, I stand by that statement. There's no way that the FF sensor is 50% of the cost of the camera in 2020.
 
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IMHO, lenses aren't going to be an issue.

On the long side, Canon doesn't offer any EF-S lenses longer than 250mm, and I doubt the EF-S 55-250mm was made with 7D owners in mind. On the wide side, the EF-S 10-18/22mm is a wee wider than the EF 11-24mm. Canon never made any fisheye lenses in EF-S and presented the EF 8-15mm as a fiseye lens for all its sensor sizes. So I wouldn't be surprised if Canon made a crop RF camera to replace the 7D, without any crop RF lenses for it.
 
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slclick

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I get this, but with respect this is only one part of the 7D market. Exactly how much of the market I can't be sure, but when I had my 7D mark 1 I was using EF-S lenses more often than EF lenses, even though I had a good select of EF lenses at the time. How much of the 7D market use the 7D as their *second* camera and keep a FF camera as well?

Only Canon will know whether it's commercially viable now to build an APS-C RF camera. Maybe they'll rely on people using EF-S lenses with it. They used to bundle the EOS-RP with an EF 24-105 lens before the cheap RF 24-105 was available, maybe they'll keep EF-S lenses around for this too.
It's the larger part, the part with people who spend more money.
 
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jolyonralph

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It's the larger part, the part with people who spend more money.

If that's true (and it may well be, I simply don't know!) then the chances of an APS-C mount R are much higher.

I wonder if there's any point in Canon going back to APS-H instead of APS-C?
 
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But then you lose a stop of light, not to mention optical image quality and usually AF speed, with every lens you put on it. That's the reason a 70-200/2.8 + 1.4X on a FF camera doesn't work nearly as well as a 70-200/2.8 on a 1.6X crop body does for anyone shooting sports/action under artificial lighting.
I agree with you, I am just trying to guess at what Canon is thinking and or planning to do. I hope they build a killer sensor for the M series and stick it in a very tough R body.
 
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unfocused

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Of course, no one knows what Canon's strategy or plans may be. I'm still leaning toward an M7 rather than an R7. I get that people want to use some RF glass on a crop sensor camera, but I don't see that as sufficient reason for Canon to muck up the clear segmentation of APS-C and Full Frame in their mirrorless lineup. I'm guessing they'd like to get out of the mixing and matching sensor size business and have a clear differentiation between full frame and APS-C.

As Nikon demonstrated with the D500, you only need one lens to sell a high end APS-C body. Canon could easily make a long zoom in the M mount, a 100-500 or maybe even something odd, like a 150-550 f6.3. They already have M mount lenses available for shorter focal lengths, so no pressure to add anything new at that end.

If Canon goes ahead with a higher megapixel R body, then there is even less reason to put an APS-C sensor in an R body -- not when cropping in-camera is so easy.

Time will tell, but my money is on an M7 that sits at the top of the lineup.
 
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Michael Clark

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There may be. But on the other hand, how many of those 7D II shooters would not buy an M7, if it ticks off the right boxes? My guess is that despite some grumbling, almost all would take an M series if that's what Canon offers.

If it is as small as the largest previous M-series body, with the resulting lack of space for enough direct control buttons, that would be enough to eliminate many of them.
 
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Michael Clark

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I don't know. The 7D series is seriously larger than most of the Rebels, but that didn't stop Canon. I guess it comes down to which would be more confusing, having a larger bodied M or having just one R body with an APS-C sensor, no lenses that match the sensor and a whole lineup of APS-C lenses (small, limited lineup of 61mm in diameter APS-C lenses aimed at a specific market sector) that can't be used on the most expensive APS-C body.

I'm leaning toward the larger body M as the most likely solution. Others will disagree, but mostly that's just because they are lusting after the R series and want it all. But for them, Canon might offer a 90 mpx full frame body and just expect people to pay more.

Obviously the easiest solution for Canon would just be to release a 7DIII and I'm not totally counting that out either.

That's the whole point! M-series bodies and their limited number of lenses, all with the same 61mm diameter, are aimed at a specific market that was typically occupied by Rebels in the past. The 7D series has never been aimed at those buyers!
 
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Michael Clark

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I keep envisioning the M equivalent of the Olympus E-M1X. But in my mind that would need equivalent lenses as well as well, like the Olympus 300/4, so maybe an EF-M 300/5.6 to adjust for the larger sensor while keeping the size/weight the same.
I really like the 'reach' and performance the M6II gives me over the RP, but lenses like the 180mmL and 100-400L really need a larger grip to be comfortable to use.
I tried the 180mm on my 1D last week and that's a joy to use, but the 4MP is a bit small nowadays :)

How well did the E-M1X go over as the body that was going to rescue Olympus?
 
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