The Canon EOS R5 C has been rejected for Netflix Certification

[adrian_bacon]

It's just a matter of quality control. Big broadcasters have been doing this for years now, in order to maximize their workflows and minimize quality gaps between productions.

As far as I know, they consider image quality (the technical standard, evaluating the signal to noise ratio, dynamic range, black levels, and the list goes on), codec (options, bitrate, color subsampling, bit depth) and also inout and output terminals. Cameras such as the C200 and Pocket 4K Cinema Camera were rejected due to the lack of timecode inputs, per example. And since the R5C does have a timecode inout and plenty of codecs, even a RAW format, my guess it that it was something regarding the image quality of the camera - and they could be spot on on the lack of Canon Log 2, since it's the required gamma for most of the certified Canon cameras on the Netflix PTA website.

Yes, but big broadcasters typically just list video specs any video they host has to conform to. They don't typically list cameras a production can or cannot use unless the broadcaster itself is the producer, and it's being edited in house by the broadcaster. If somebody makes a great show and a broadcaster wants to buy the rights, so they can broadcast or host it, they don't typically reject it because it wasn't shot on specific gear, no, they just go, "Hey, we need you to submit your content to us with these specs". To stipulate specific approved gear is to potentially dictate creative control. A DP or director or producer may be using a specific piece of gear for very specific technical or creative reasons, and to have Netflix (or any other broadcaster) come in and say "You can't shoot your show with that equipment because we don't approve of it" is ludicrous in my opinion, especially if the production is submitting finished video that they just have to distribute. No, they should just say finished video needs to conform to specs x, y, and z in order for us to host it. Again, if Netflix is the producer, that's a different story.

 

[bergstrom]

Wasn't the R5C supposed to have bad autofocus. The slanted lens on YT did a review comparison of it.

 

[Scenes]

Wasn't the R5C supposed to have bad autofocus. The slanted lens on YT did a review comparison of it.

Depends how you come at it. It has the best autofocus of any Canon Cinema Camera but works very differently to how the regular R5/R6 does so can see how people might call it 'bad' if coming from a DSLR.

For the purposes of this discussion It has the best autofocus of the Netflix approved Canon cameras, put it that way.

 

[rontele7]

I think the whole Netflix certification thing is a load of baloney.

100% agree. Broadcast TV has a minimum of 50mbps, which is very common and easy to achieve with any modern camera.

News, sports, shows on cable, etc., are all around 50mbps.

The R5c can shoot up to 2600mbps, which is insane.

Rejecting this camera seems a result of politics or ignorance, as the R5c is more than capable of producing world class content.

 

[rontele7]

Tim Laman, one of National Geographic's top photographers, has been shooting video on an R5C this month for a documentary. You can see it on his instagram.

You have to wonder: what does it say about Netlix that they'd turn down work from one of the most elite wildlife shooters on the planet?

To me it says much more about Netflix bureaucracy than it does about Canon.

 

[DBounce]

The Netflix camera certification has become a major industry standard and a guide by which many Hollywood producers operate. Even if you have no intention to shoot something for Netflix, if you work in the entertainment business in LA, having a Netflix-approved system increases the value and usability of your camera. How Canon managed to flunk the 4K Netflix standard with a brand new, 8K sensor that shoots raw, is beyond me. I'm guessing it's because of their stubborn refusal to put Clog2 in the R5C, which effectively reduces the camera's dynamic range, making it less acceptable for HDR content. That's the only thing I can think of. The prevention of Clog 2 in the R5C is the Canon cripple hammer in full force. I own both a C300 III and an R5C, and having to explain to post facilities that they need to use two different LUTs with the footage I'm handing them is really annoying. I wish they'd just give us CLog 2 on the R5C and stop being so stingy. But alas, it's Canon. And this sort of decision is on brand for them. I really hope the Netflix decision gives them a bit of a wake-up call, but I doubt it.

That’s just it… the R5C does not have a brand new sensor… it’s the same sensor as in the R5. The Canon camera with a brand new Canon sensor is the Eos R3, with the first stacked design sensor from Canon.

 

[WhatDoesMStandsFor]

Yes, but big broadcasters typically just list video specs any video they host has to conform to. They don't typically list cameras a production can or cannot use unless the broadcaster itself is the producer, and it's being edited in house by the broadcaster. If somebody makes a great show and a broadcaster wants to buy the rights, so they can broadcast or host it, they don't typically reject it because it wasn't shot on specific gear, no, they just go, "Hey, we need you to submit your content to us with these specs". To stipulate specific approved gear is to potentially dictate creative control. A DP or director or producer may be using a specific piece of gear for very specific technical or creative reasons, and to have Netflix (or any other broadcaster) come in and say "You can't shoot your show with that equipment because we don't approve of it" is ludicrous in my opinion, especially if the production is submitting finished video that they just have to distribute. No, they should just say finished video needs to conform to specs x, y, and z in order for us to host it. Again, if Netflix is the producer, that's a different story.

But here's the thing: if it's a Netflix original, Netflix  is the producer. This certification only counts towards Netflix original productions.

 

[WhatDoesMStandsFor]

Tim Laman, one of National Geographic's top photographers, has been shooting video on an R5C this month for a documentary. You can see it on his instagram.

You have to wonder: what does it say about Netlix that they'd turn down work from one of the most elite wildlife shooters on the planet?

To me it says much more about Netflix bureaucracy than it does about Canon.

If he's shooting for NatGeo, you can be 100% sure that it will go to Disney+ first. It won't be a Netflix original production by any stretch of imagination.

 

[Scenes]

That’s just it… the R5C does not have a brand new sensor… it’s the same sensor as in the R5. The Canon camera with a brand new Canon sensor is the Eos R3, with the first stacked design sensor from Canon.

True, but there are changes as it's proven to have more stops of dynamic range than the R5 and R3.

 

[WhatDoesMStandsFor]

I was talking to a really, really geek friend of mine that ran some lab tests on the R5 C, and here's his theory:

"The signal to noise ratio of the EOS R5 C sensor is not up to standard with other cameras that I've tested. There's simply too much noise on the black levels. And my bet is due to the sensor resolution (8K).

They've made improvements over the original R5, but it's not nowhere near the C70, C300 Mk III or C500 Mk II. Heck, it's not near as close as the original C500, which is a decade old camera at this point.

It looks like a Blackmagic Ursa Mini Pro 12K type of situation, which was another camera with extremely high resolution that has also been rejected by Netflix without a real explanation whatsoever.

I also don't know what Canon could do about the issue in order to make it passable by Netflix standards, if my theory turns out correct. It's not a matter of firmware update, like the FX3, which had the image quality but lacked the input and output for TC."

 

[2 cents]

I don't do video, and wish it wasn't even an option on my cameras - so I don't know what you guys are talking about.

Having said that, I find Canon's response rather concerning. Looks like they couldn't care less. Just like they could't care less about, us, the users of their products, perhaps?

Canon have changed lately.

 

[dolina]

I don't do video, and wish it wasn't even an option on my cameras - so I don't know what you guys are talking about.

Having said that, I find Canon's response rather concerning. Looks like they couldn't care less. Just like they could't care less about, us, the users of their products, perhaps?

Canon have changed lately.

I am thankful Canon included video into EF bodies as it helped economies of scale thus lowering the price per unit to what we are paying then rather than nearly doubling the per unit price because far less people would be using them.

It increased the utilization of the camera.

It is like how the inclusion of a back & front camera on the smartphone drove the sales of each to more than a billion per year.

Largely fueled by people wanting better cameras on their smartphone every 2-3 years or longer.

 

[Scenes]

I don't do video, and wish it wasn't even an option on my cameras - so I don't know what you guys are talking about.

Having said that, I find Canon's response rather concerning. Looks like they couldn't care less. Just like they could't care less about, us, the users of their products, perhaps?

Canon have changed lately.

We don’t actually know Canon’s response, we’re taking these rumours and implied responses as fact. But assuming it’s true, I don’t feel offended as an R5C user. Would it be nice, sure! But Canon have multiple Netflix approved cameras if that’s a need. The R5C was never sold as one.

 

[peters]

Wasn't the R5C supposed to have bad autofocus. The slanted lens on YT did a review comparison of it.

Yes, this is correct. It was the reason I sold my R5C and switched back to a second R5. (This, and the aweful battery drain). The R5 AF is noteable better and the R5C does not even offer tracking AF in 4k120, which the R5 does.
But this cant be the reason its not Netflix approved. Most Cinema Cameras have no AF at all.

Clog 2 missing - thats also a weird reason - the R5C got internal RAW. The RAW Footage can be set to Clog 2 in post....

 

[Scenes]

Everyone disappointed with the R5C really wants an R3. Something that they’re used too but bigger and better. People are jumping to it thinking it’s a bigger better R5 but it’s not, it’s a smaller C70 that takes pictures.

 

[WhatDoesMStandsFor]

Everyone disappointed with the R5C really wants an R3. Something that they’re used too but bigger and better. People are jumping to it thinking it’s a bigger better R5 but it’s not, it’s a smaller C70 that takes pictures.

Not really. I have a R5 C. The idea of getting a R3 went through my mind and I dropped after the announcement of the R5 C.

My line of thinking was: get a R5. I've rented one and the overheat was a major issue for me. I let go.

Then the R3 was announced, but the camera did have some issues with overheating in slow motion. I was about to pull the plug on regardless, then Canon announced the R5 C and I got it instead.

The biggest difference between the R5 C and all of the Canon's mirrorless cameras is control. When shooting slowmotion, I can choose the project frame rate (24, 30 or 60) and also how many frames I'm shooting (up to 120). On the R5 and R3 I'm stuck in project with 30 frames and shooting 120. This is far from ideal.

The other thing was the IBIS. IBIS is a major plague when rigging a camera to a vehicle, so we use fixed sensor cameras. The R5 C solves that by getting rid of the IBIS.

Again, these things are minor, but it works seamless for me and the work that I do.

 

[Scenes]

Not really. I have a R5 C. The idea of getting a R3 went through my mind and I dropped after the announcement of the R5 C.

My line of thinking was: get a R5. I've rented one and the overheat was a major issue for me. I let go.

Then the R3 was announced, but the camera did have some issues with overheating in slow motion. I was about to pull the plug on regardless, then Canon announced the R5 C and I got it instead.

The biggest difference between the R5 C and all of the Canon's mirrorless cameras is control. When shooting slowmotion, I can choose the project frame rate (24, 30 or 60) and also how many frames I'm shooting (up to 120). On the R5 and R3 I'm stuck in project with 30 frames and shooting 120. This is far from ideal.

The other thing was the IBIS. IBIS is a major plague when rigging a camera to a vehicle, so we use fixed sensor cameras. The R5 C solves that by getting rid of the IBIS.

Again, these things are minor, but it works seamless for me and the work that I do.

It sounds like you're coming at it from a filmmaking point of view. In which case I'd say you're the target market. Since I got an R5C and joined a ton of 'cinema' forums half the posters are unhappy and didn't know what they were getting themselves in for.

The video OS is different, auto focus different, no IBIS, battery drain, traditional buttons on the back of the camera you've built up memory muscle for using over years the R5C isn't even aware of in video mode. If you're showing stuff to a client you can't even display photos in video mode or videos in photo mode. They'd all have been better off with an R3 that works the way they expected.

That said, if you embrace the R5C for what it is.. a small cinema camera that takes photos.. and you're used to that way of working its a different experience altogether.

 

[DBounce]

True, but there are changes as it's proven to have more stops of dynamic range than the R5 and R3.

I have yet to see it proven to have more dynamic range than the R3. Where did you see that review? Link please.

 

[josephandrews222]

This thread is an example of one of the times when reading CR makes me smarter. Thanks to all of the posters here with real-world experience and the desire to share that experience, in small, easily digestible bites.

 

[Scenes]

I have yet to see it proven to have more dynamic range than the R3. Where did you see that review? Link please.

Gerald undone video review and DP Reviews web review spring to mind. It has two stops extra usable dynamic range compared to the R5. It’s pretty well established it’s why the footage cuts so well with C70 and Red Komodo comparisons.

Edit- attaching a still from CineD going in depth on usable range tests. It's 2 stops better than the R5.
https://www.cined.com/canon-eos-r5-c-lab-test-rolling-shutter-dynamic-range-and-latitude/