Canon EOS R5 Mark II to arrive before EOS R1? [CR2]

[Michael Clark]

Oh dear... when are people going to recognise that it wasn't a fiasco. It was a beat up by reviewers and especially Sony owners that Canon out-engineered them at the time and Sony still can't provide 8k raw files even in a camera 50% more expensive.
Let's be very clear that thermal limits were only in 3 video modes: 8k raw, 4k120 and 4KHQ. All of which now have substantially better record times (and back-to-back times) after swift firmware updates.

Maybe and just maybe, Canon promised and delivered but still wasn't enough for complainers.
At the time (and to plagiarise an excellent historical commentary).

Somewhere in a galaxy not far from here, within 6 months of announcements…
Internet: Canon could never put 8K full frame in to a mirrorless camera. They don't have the technical capabilities to do that. The last time they innovated was when 5d mkii was born.
Canon: Our next 5 series will have 8K and demonstrate what we are capable of.
Internet: (spits coffee on screen) Yeah right. Maybe 8K timelapse mode
Canon: No, 8K video
Internet: Er no, 8K like 15 second movie burst mode then, because you know overheating would happen in such a small body. Do Canon engineers not know anything about physics? That's why refrigerators exist....
Canon: No full 8K video
Internet: Yeah right.... hahaha. It's not possible. So no AF or IBIS then. You won't be able to use the full technologies of the camera/
Canon: No. 8K Full frame, AF and IBIS enabled.
Internet: It's not possible, because you know.... overheating is a thing with technology in such a small package. If it was possible then Sony would have done it.
Canon: Hold our beer.....

Post launch
Internet: I demand a full unconditional apology from Canon. I demand immediately that they give us unlimited 8K full frame video for $4.99 and stop hiding behind this "overheating" scenario to protect their other cameras. I’ve never felt so personally insulted by a camera company as I have by Canon. To me honest behaviour is very important. I recognize that the only person that is perfect is me and people make mistakes. The important thing is to admit that and not to sell us totally unusable technology like this…

It was a fiasco. The fiasco was all of the YouTube reviewers crying they had been promised something they had not been promised and then moaning endlessly about how deceptive they wanted to portray Canon when the YouTubers were the ones being deceptive.

But Canon didn't respond in the best way and took a reputation hit in the marketplace as a result. In the marketplace, perception is reality, even when the perception is unfounded.

 

[padam]

What they've wanted was publicity, and they got that going continuously (for free).
The fact of the matter is, the R5 has been selling well without any discounts for a long time, so I don't think they are worried that all this have hurt them so much.
Negative reviews will be harder to find for the R5 II even though they barely have to change it.
It will be the 3rd party lenses, micro-HDMI, not the best dynamic range in video, disappearing histogram and level during recording, H.265 codec (computers can probably handle it these days and the file sizes are very good) etc.
Rivals won't have the same all-rounder feature set, there is just nothing that can compete with it directly, so these are almost moot points.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

but they were buried deep in the handbooks

There was and still is a table clearly displayed on the webpage.

EOS R5

High Image Quality featuring a New 45 Megapixel Full-frame CMOS Sensor. DIGIC X Image Processor with an ISO range of 100-51200; Expandable to 102400*1. High-Speed Continuous Shooting of up to 12 fps with Mechanical Shutter and up to 20 fps Electronic (Silent) Shutter. Dual Pixel CMOS AF II...

www.usa.canon.com

The overheating was also talked about by reviewers long before anyone had the camera.
The real surprises were the long cool-down times and that the overheating could not be circumvented in the initial firmware.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

disappearing histogram

People are still harping about that on the R6 II even though it has False Color.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

It was a fiasco. The fiasco was all of the YouTube reviewers crying they had been promised something they had not been promised and then moaning endlessly about how deceptive they wanted to portray Canon when the YouTubers were the ones being deceptive.

Sony took advantage of the opportunity and gave tons of YouTube influencers free a7S III cameras.
Panasonic has caught on to that strategy and given away tons of S5 II cameras but the timing is not so great.
The main advantage of the S5 II is that it can record 4K 60 indefinitely due to active cooling for $2K USD.
The problem is the 4K 60 is cropped.
The C200B is $2,500 USD with internal RAW and built-in ND, the R6 II is also $2,500 USD, the R6 is $2K on the street, and the R8 is $1,500.

 

[padam]

Sony took advantage of the opportunity and gave tons of YouTube influencers free a7S III cameras.
Panasonic has caught on to that strategy and given away tons of S5 II cameras but the timing is not so great.
The main advantage of the S5 II is that it can record 4K 60 indefinitely due to active cooling for $2K USD.
The problem is the 4K 60 is cropped.
The C200B is $2,500 USD with internal RAW and built-in ND, the R6 II is also $2,500 USD, the R6 is $2K on the street, and the R8 is $1,500.

Yes, but this is from a video-only perspective. Once R5 II has the video side sorted out, it will blow these away as a hybrid/stills camera.

 

[ata bora]

There is no doubt that the Canon Eos R5 Mark II will be a more mature and stable series than the R5. Makes me think about the price. I'd like to hear anyone who has an opinion on what the price will be.

 

[Michael Clark]

There is no doubt that the Canon Eos R5 Mark II will be a more mature and stable series than the R5. Makes me think about the price. I'd like to hear anyone who has an opinion on what the price will be.

In which countries and currencies?

 

[ata bora]

In which countries and currencies?

USA and Europa,

 

[TracyBurchPhotos]

I just don't see how there could be a mark 2 for the R5. Not sure what else could be upgraded about the R5. I feel like cameras have hit a ceiling. Unless they randomly make a camera that always has perfect white balance I don't see a reason to ever upgrade from the R5 or even R6 Mark 2.
-Tracy
Wedding photographer in Maryland

 

[entoman]

I just don't see how there could be a mark 2 for the R5. Not sure what else could be upgraded about the R5. I feel like cameras have hit a ceiling. Unless they randomly make a camera that always has perfect white balance I don't see a reason to ever upgrade from the R5 or even R6 Mark 2.
-Tracy
Wedding photographer in Maryland

The R5, is IMO one of the very best cameras produced by any manufacturer. As is typical of complex modern cameras, there were a few bugs at first, but with 1.6.0 these all seem to have been fixed. I wouldn't want to swap my R5 for any other model I can think of, regardless of brand or price.

But there are plenty of very useful things which could be upgraded on a R5 Mkii including:

Variable burst rates with electronic shutter.
Exposure bracketing with electronic shutter.
Faster and more accurate subject recognition.
Stickier AF tracking.
AF initiated within any chosen zone, and tracked across entire frame.
Elimination of EVF lag from standby.

All of the above could probably be fixed via a firmware update, but will probably wait until the R5 Mkii is launched.
I'd expect the R5 Mkii to also include:

Hybrid Panasonic-style tilting/flippy screen.
Higher resolution EVF.
Better sensor (more DR, less noise).
Faster burst speeds.
Separate interfaces for video and stills.
Better cooling.

I don't think we'll see a R5 Mkii until 2024, the long-rumoured hi-res R5s will probably arrive first. It's quite possible that even the R1 will arrive before the R5 Mkii.

 

[kaihp]

That assumes one does not get eaten by a tiger after "investing" in that safari in Kenya...

I'm quite certain that you won't get eaten by any tigers in Kenya. Lions and hyenas on the other hand, though ...

 

[entoman]

There is no doubt that the Canon Eos R5 Mark II will be a more mature and stable series than the R5. Makes me think about the price. I'd like to hear anyone who has an opinion on what the price will be.

The R5 was a bargain at launch, and now that the price has dropped and the bugs have been fixed, it's even more of a bargain. To put it another way, Canon underpriced it, IMO. If Canon agree with that, they'll likely put a premium of circa $300 on the R5ii. And given that the R5ii is unlikely to appear for another year, and that inflation will have some impact, you can add another $200. It won't be cheap. But it will be worth every cent.

 

[davidhfe]

I just don't see how there could be a mark 2 for the R5. Not sure what else could be upgraded about the R5. I feel like cameras have hit a ceiling. Unless they randomly make a camera that always has perfect white balance I don't see a reason to ever upgrade from the R5 or even R6 Mark 2.
-Tracy
Wedding photographer in Maryland

I can think of so many things. This is a random, off the cuff list:
- There's still loads of ceiling in the autofocus performance. We've gotten very spoiled by good autofocus but I suspect we're nowhere near what's feasible
- Updated autofocus modes, and autofocus handling improvements. I personally find the R5 to be a little fussy with AF modes
- Stacked sensor or improved readout speeds. I would like to be able to shoot tennis with the ES w/o bent rackets
- Resolution bump / incremental DR gains
- Top end electronic FPS that matches the R6II
- No bit depth readout penalty for the ES - or even better the ability to make the tradeoff in camera (readout vs depth)
- Revised IBIS with separate behaviors for video and photo, to finally fix the wobble problem, overall improved control of the IS function between lens and body
- Variable frame rate control via custom function
- Matched card slots
- AF select nub from the R3
- 1-2 extra programmable buttons (eg a split button on for the DOF preview) or some other ergonomic improvements
- Computational photography tools that still give you a form of RAW (stacking, pixel shift, etc)
- Stability improvements to match their DSLR quality. My R5 freezes far more than my 5D4 ever did.
- All the video quirks removed: Time limit, overheat, etc
- Multifunction shoe
- Higher MP EVF
- Better battery performance - I would even tolerate a new battery design here

Edit: forgot the big one. Eye AF. It was on the elan line, no need to keep it an R3 exclusive!

Most of that is photo based. I don't do much video, but on top of all that I know there are a LOT of nice to haves that folks want on the video side.

I am personally really hoping for a stacked sensor. That's probably the only "instant buy" feature on that list for me, and it's the one that would be the biggest segmentation challenge for the canon product group. My hope is that the R3 is differentiated more on robustness (gripped body, higher voltage battery for long glass) and handling speed than on sensor performance.

OTOH if Canon can pull off a 45mp stacked sensor under $4000 it'd make the A1 look like a joke.

 

[entoman]

I can think of so many things. This is a random, off the cuff list:
- There's still loads of ceiling in the autofocus performance. We've gotten very spoiled by good autofocus but I suspect we're nowhere near what's feasible
- Updated autofocus modes, and autofocus handling improvements. I personally find the R5 to be a little fussy with AF modes
- Stacked sensor or improved readout speeds. I would like to be able to shoot tennis with the ES w/o bent rackets
- Resolution bump / incremental DR gains
- Top end electronic FPS that matches the R6II
- No bit depth readout penalty for the ES - or even better the ability to make the tradeoff in camera (readout vs depth)
- Revised IBIS with separate behaviors for video and photo, to finally fix the wobble problem, overall improved control of the IS function between lens and body
- Variable frame rate control via custom function
- Matched card slots
- AF select nub from the R3
- 1-2 extra programmable buttons (eg a split button on for the DOF preview) or some other ergonomic improvements
- Computational photography tools that still give you a form of RAW (stacking, pixel shift, etc)
- Stability improvements to match their DSLR quality. My R5 freezes far more than my 5D4 ever did.
- All the video quirks removed: Time limit, overheat, etc
- Multifunction shoe
- Higher MP EVF
- Better battery performance - I would even tolerate a new battery design here

Edit: forgot the big one. Eye AF. It was on the elan line, no need to keep it an R3 exclusive!

Most of that is photo based. I don't do much video, but on top of all that I know there are a LOT of nice to haves that folks want on the video side.

I am personally really hoping for a stacked sensor. That's probably the only "instant buy" feature on that list for me, and it's the one that would be the biggest segmentation challenge for the canon product group. My hope is that the R3 is differentiated more on robustness (gripped body, higher voltage battery for long glass) and handling speed than on sensor performance.

OTOH if Canon can pull off a 45mp stacked sensor under $4000 it'd make the A1 look like a joke.

Yes, certainly improvements and advances can be made, but to be honest, there is nothing in your list, or in my list (above) that would make an R5ii an "instant buy" for me. In fact even if *all* of those improvements found their way into an R5ii, I doubt if I'd get one, as the R5 is already such a great camera. The only thing that will make me buy a new camera this year or next, is if my R5 breaks or is stolen, although admittedly it would be good to have another FF back-up body.

 

[Michael Clark]

USA and Europa,

Based on recent trends (e.g. the R6 vs R6 Mark II), the R5 Mark II will be the same price as the R5 was at introduction in the U.S., and considerably more expensive than the R5 was in Europe as well as more expensive than the R5 II will be in the U.S., based on current exchange rates and accounting for VAT.

 

[Michael Clark]

The R5, is IMO one of the very best cameras produced by any manufacturer. As is typical of complex modern cameras, there were a few bugs at first, but with 1.6.0 these all seem to have been fixed. I wouldn't want to swap my R5 for any other model I can think of, regardless of brand or price.

But there are plenty of very useful things which could be upgraded on a R5 Mkii including:

Variable burst rates with electronic shutter.
Exposure bracketing with electronic shutter.
Faster and more accurate subject recognition.
Stickier AF tracking.
AF initiated within any chosen zone, and tracked across entire frame.
Elimination of EVF lag from standby.

All of the above could probably be fixed via a firmware update, but will probably wait until the R5 Mkii is launched.
I'd expect the R5 Mkii to also include:

Hybrid Panasonic-style tilting/flippy screen.
Higher resolution EVF.
Better sensor (more DR, less noise).
Faster burst speeds.
Separate interfaces for video and stills.
Better cooling.

I don't think we'll see a R5 Mkii until 2024, the long-rumoured hi-res R5s will probably arrive first. It's quite possible that even the R1 will arrive before the R5 Mkii.

I think it may be possible that the long awaited R5s and R1 are the same camera?

That is, the R1 will be the high resolution monster leaving the R3 as the more sports/photojournalism oriented model.

Sports and PJ ain't what it used to be in terms of camera sales volumes to agencies and press organizations.

 

[Michael Clark]

I can think of so many things. This is a random, off the cuff list:
- There's still loads of ceiling in the autofocus performance. We've gotten very spoiled by good autofocus but I suspect we're nowhere near what's feasible
- Updated autofocus modes, and autofocus handling improvements. I personally find the R5 to be a little fussy with AF modes
- Stacked sensor or improved readout speeds. I would like to be able to shoot tennis with the ES w/o bent rackets
- Resolution bump / incremental DR gains
- Top end electronic FPS that matches the R6II
- No bit depth readout penalty for the ES - or even better the ability to make the tradeoff in camera (readout vs depth)
- Revised IBIS with separate behaviors for video and photo, to finally fix the wobble problem, overall improved control of the IS function between lens and body
- Variable frame rate control via custom function
- Matched card slots
- AF select nub from the R3
- 1-2 extra programmable buttons (eg a split button on for the DOF preview) or some other ergonomic improvements
- Computational photography tools that still give you a form of RAW (stacking, pixel shift, etc)
- Stability improvements to match their DSLR quality. My R5 freezes far more than my 5D4 ever did.
- All the video quirks removed: Time limit, overheat, etc
- Multifunction shoe
- Higher MP EVF
- Better battery performance - I would even tolerate a new battery design here

Edit: forgot the big one. Eye AF. It was on the elan line, no need to keep it an R3 exclusive!

Most of that is photo based. I don't do much video, but on top of all that I know there are a LOT of nice to haves that folks want on the video side.

I am personally really hoping for a stacked sensor. That's probably the only "instant buy" feature on that list for me, and it's the one that would be the biggest segmentation challenge for the canon product group. My hope is that the R3 is differentiated more on robustness (gripped body, higher voltage battery for long glass) and handling speed than on sensor performance.

OTOH if Canon can pull off a 45mp stacked sensor under $4000 it'd make the A1 look like a joke.

Put that entire list in one camera body, add much higher resolution than the R5, and you're probably getting awful close to the R1.

 

[neuroanatomist]

I think it may be possible that the long awaited R5s and R1 are the same camera?

That is, the R1 will be the high resolution monster leaving the R3 as the more sports/photojournalism oriented model.

I doubt it. But if true, and it has a 1-series form factor…

 

[ata bora]

Yes, certainly improvements and advances can be made, but to be honest, there is nothing in your list, or in my list (above) that would make an R5ii an "instant buy" for me. In fact even if *all* of those improvements found their way into an R5ii, I doubt if I'd get one, as the R5 is already such a great camera. The only thing that will make me buy a new camera this year or next, is if my R5 breaks or is stolen, although admittedly it would be good to have another FF back-up body.

I agree with you. I started to think of Canon Eos R8 as the second body (which does not tire a bit of budget). The thing that bothered me about this camera and made it difficult for me to decide was the battery preference. Of course, there are reasons for this, but if there was a body with an LP-E6NH battery, its sales rates would increase significantly.