Birdsasart migrates to Nikon

Nov 8, 2011
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Well I believe that using either Canon or Nikon we can have a sharp and a blurry picture of a bird in flight at the same time as long as we do not check the result ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
 

neuroanatomist

Spends Too Much Time on This Forum
Jul 21, 2010
23,501
535
tron said:
Well I believe that using either Canon or Nikon we can have a sharp and a blurry picture of a bird in flight cat at the same time as long as we do not check the result ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Fixed that for ya.

;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
 

Don Haines

posting cat pictures on the internet since 1986
Jun 4, 2012
7,515
619
Canada
tron said:
Well I believe that using either Canon or Nikon we can have a sharp and a blurry picture of a bird in flight at the same time as long as we do not check the result ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Actually, it's not birds in flight, it is cats in boxes....

Schrödinger's cat is a thought experiment, sometimes described as a paradox, devised by Austrian physicist Erwin Schrödinger in 1935. It illustrates what he saw as the problem of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics applied to everyday objects. The scenario presents a cat that may be simultaneously both in focus and out of focus, a state known as a quantum superposition, as a result of being linked to a random subatomic event that may or may not occur. The thought experiment is also often featured in theoretical discussions of the interpretations of quantum mechanics.

Schrödinger was a brilliant theoretical physicist, but had problems performing practical experiments and often forgot to set the aperture properly to get the desired depth of field.
 

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Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
5,696
261
Alberta, Canada
I did uncheck this thread but in a moment of boredom returned to peruse the previous 2 or 3 pages. I'm also curious about Ari's description of the equality more or less of Canon and Nikon and then the switch to Nikon minus the 400 DO.

I also have unsubscribed from Birdsasart. I just can't stomach some of the over the top pickiness about such things as AF point choices and histograms (Ari brushes histograms off for bird photos and recommends blinkies). Personally my opinion of Artie is not negative but he's slowing becoming out of touch, which is normal as we age. There is a time when the young and energetic need to take over.

PBD, if only. I do believe even I could get some BIF as you describe, where you live! But perhaps they would eventually become repetitious and boring just like ... ;)

Jack
 
Aug 16, 2012
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Ari has come back to explain. He used the wrong settings when he first tested the D5. Yes, there is no equivalent of the 400mm DO II, the Nikon 2xTC is so bad he wouldn't buy it and even their 1.7xTC isn't sharp. Big birds are easy as are seagulls etc. But, for that extra 5% of BIF that real men need to capture, he will sacrifice everything. Good news for me as little birds wheeling in flight camouflaged against background are less than 5% of my goals and so breathing a huge sigh of relief I can continue with my 2xTC on my 400mm DO and my 100-400mm and not sell up for Nikon. Phew.
 

neuroanatomist

Spends Too Much Time on This Forum
Jul 21, 2010
23,501
535
Speaking of birds in flight, that 'explanation' stinks like something that would have vultures flying around it in slow, lazy circles that even a Canon camera could track.
 
Jul 28, 2015
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neuroanatomist said:
Speaking of birds in flight, that 'explanation' stinks like something that would have vultures flying around it in slow, lazy circles that even a Canon camera could track.
Neuro... I never took you for being cynical..... ::)
 
Sep 17, 2010
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I am not interested in changing systems. I am interested in seeing more pictures. As an understatement, Art seems prone to hyperbole. I do not have an opinion about Ari yet. But if I got particularly passionate about one specific thing, I can see flipping gear if I thought it was a bit better. And while I want to see pictures, getting better pictures than what Ari has may not be what happens, he may just get more keepers. I'll be most interested in his ongoing impressions.

But, question was answered, Aug to Jan switch was learning more about Nikon's equivalent to the zone AF system, which he finds better for BIF (as Alan already quoted, but bottom of the comment section):

http://arihazeghiphotography.com/blog/switch-to-the-dark-side/
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
1,985
239
Vancouver, BC
@docsmith - thanks for the link.

Ari's answers are a perfectly reasonable reason for him to switch bodies, in my opinion. Per his explanation, it wouldn't make any sense for me, nor, do I think, most casual birders.


Q: Why are you switching to Nikon now?
A. In the past 13 years, I have been exclusively shooting with Canon gear, I briefly tried Nikon gear, that is the D3s and the Nikon 500VR for a few months in 2010 and it didn’t meet my expectations. After Nikon’s latest release, the picture has changed. Nikon has gained the upper hand in the AF department for such subject as birds in flight.

Q: Is the AF the only reason? Is it that much better?
A. Yes, that’s the only reason. The Canon AF system is and has been great, it has produced many exceptional and dynamic images for me, however it does have some shortcomings. At this point, more than before, I find myself after that top 5% action frames where AF makes or breaks my day, and for this particular subject the difference is clear and measurable.

...

Q. Do you believe that Canon gear is inferior to Nikon?
A. Not at all, Canon continues to be a strong performer with excellent lenses such as 600mm II that is equally great with the extender 2X III and the superb 400 DO II (missing from the equivalent Nikon kit). In my opinion for general bird photography, Canon still has the upper hand with their excellent selection of lenses and extenders. Nikon excels when capturing complex action frames due to their excellent AF system.

Q. In what ways is the Nikon AF better? Is it faster?
A. It is not faster, to the contrary, I feel the servo drive in Nikon lenses is slower than that of Canon. The Nikon 600 FL far focus limit is 10m-infinity compared to 16m-infinity for the Canon EF 600m IS II, perhaps the greater travel distance is the reason why Nikon feels slower. What pushes Nikon ahead is the overall stability of the AF system and consistency in tracking the subject once the initial lock has been achieved. Canon system in contrast is is a bit unstable or “nervous” when tracking a complex subject against a varied background. For over a decade and in the course of working with many different Canon bodies, I have, rather successfully, developed a number of techniques such as late acquisition and AF bumping as well a matrix of AI-servo settings to overcome this issue (as outlined in detail in my BIF guide). However even with the perfect technique, there are still a number of shots that are going to be soft. I want to emphasize, this is not an issue for an average photographer, those who shoot perched birds or even those who have repeat opportunities at setup action. But as I mentioned, for capturing that top 5% of the shots in the wild, and when one and only one chance exists, it becomes an issue.
 
Jan 6, 2014
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This has been an interesting thread to follow, as a wildlife (and bird) photographer and a Canon shooter. Whilst I don't own any Nikon gear I frequently shoot the newest Nikon cameras and lenses when I swop out gear with some of the folk who travel with us on photographic safaris. I like to shoot with the Nikon gear for many reasons. It is very important for me to have a good idea of the Nikon's setup and controls as I often have to assist photographers using Nikon equipment that are traveling with us. I also like to know the Nikon's capabilities, to the limit of my own abilities, and have an idea of the respective strengths and weaknesses for when somebody may ask my opinion on choosing gear for wildlife photography. I also would like to know which cameras are the best tools for the job, for my own shooting. In the course of leading photo safaris, I get to see the images from the Nikon and Canon systems displayed side by side all the time when we are processing, evaluating, critiquing our images with our groups of photographers.
From what I can tell, I would agree with some posters above that the Nikon D5 does a better job of holding onto a fast-moving subject like a bird in the air, whether using one AF point or the group of 5, or D21, than any Canon body, if one tries to track that subject when it moves against a dark background or a strongly structured background. I have seen that result with the Nikon 200-400 f4 VR lens as well as the Nikon 400 f2.8 VR v2 lens and also with the Nikon 200-500f5.6 VR lens and the Nikon 300 f4 VR PF lens.

On the other hand, the Canon 1DX and 1DX Mk 2 as well as the 5Dmk4, when used with the Canon EF 100-400L IS ii, the EF 400 f4 DO IS ii and the EF 500L f4 IS ii will all lock onto strongly backlit subjects (that my older Canon lens and body combinations would fail on) that are moving quite quickly, when the Nikon D5 fails to do so, mounted onto the Nikon 200-400 f4 VR and the Nikon 200-500 f5.6 VR. I have not had a chance yet to see how the newest Nikon fixed lenses fare in this regard as it may be the lenses and not the camera AF that are the trouble, but the end result is the same for the user.
For sure there are some differences in the autofocus capabilities of the two camera systems and their highest performing bodies for AF (1DX mk2, 1DX, 5Dmk4, 5Dmk3, 7Dmk2) and the D5, D4s, D850, D500 but I feel that they are fairly close to one another and the differences are not great in my opinion.
Lenses play a big role too in photographing fast action and up until now, Canon's EF 100-400L IS ii and the EF 200-400L f4 1.4x extender focus faster and deliver sharper overall image quality than their Nikon counterparts - the Nikon 200-400 f4 VR and the Nikon 80-400 VR, as well as the Nikon 200-500 VR. The new high-end Nikon zooms may change this a bit - the 180-400 f4 1.4 converter lens that is upcoming, and the newest Nikon 70-200 f2.8 - which is too short for most of the wildlife that we photograph.
Whilst it is fun to compare the high end of the two systems for action photography, I feel like they are closer to one another in autofocus performance than they have been in the past :).
All our serious action shooting is usually done using either a Single manually selected AF point, or AF Expansion (One plus 4) or One plus 8 AF points, not AF Zone or the automatic AF settings. My wife Helena and I get to photograph a lot of wildlife in many different situations. We are mostly happy with the results we get from our gear but our own technique and application of skills is not always perfect, that we know for sure. We also don't expect that autofocus will manage to focus every super fast action shot that we attempt though we look forward to continuing improvements in AF.
 
From Art's 1-26-18 famous pelican landing post -"I couldn't get this shot with a canon post."

"I tried and failed for decades to create images like this with my Canon gear. Do understand that many others, more skilled than I, have made images like this with their Canon gear. With my new Nikon gear I now feel that I at least have a good chance."

I am inserting my snark into this quote:


"I tried and failed for decades to create images like this with my Canon gear. Do understand that many others, more skilled than I [who am a professional bird photographer and have been in the field almost every day for the past 20 years and so have had more chances to capture birds in every aspect of their lives than maybe all but 100 people in the world] , have made images like this with their Canon gear. With my new Nikon gear I now feel that I at least have a good chance."

I think it is called damning with faint praise.
 
Jan 3, 2018
70
0
Yorkshire
applecider said:
From Art's 1-26-18 famous pelican landing post -"I couldn't get this shot with a canon post."

"I tried and failed for decades to create images like this with my Canon gear. Do understand that many others, more skilled than I, have made images like this with their Canon gear. With my new Nikon gear I now feel that I at least have a good chance."

I am inserting my snark into this quote:


"I tried and failed for decades to create images like this with my Canon gear. Do understand that many others, more skilled than I [who am a professional bird photographer and have been in the field almost every day for the past 20 years and so have had more chances to capture birds in every aspect of their lives than maybe all but 100 people in the world] , have made images like this with their Canon gear. With my new Nikon gear I now feel that I at least have a good chance."

I think it is called damning with faint praise.
Yup - you're not wrong ! ;)
 
Aug 16, 2012
4,418
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I have been doing some reading about the difference between Nikon 3D and Canon iTR for tracking. Canon uses colour and the RGB detection to lock onto subjects. Nikon detects horizontal, vertical and diagonal movement. Nikon does have the edge for tracking movement against a background.
 
Jan 6, 2014
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AlanF said:
I have been doing some reading about the difference between Nikon 3D and Canon iTR for tracking. Canon uses colour and the RGB detection to lock onto subjects. Nikon detects horizontal, vertical and diagonal movement. Nikon does have the edge for tracking movement against a background.
Hi Alan
I have gotten my best results tracking fast birds/mammals moving against non-sky backgrounds using a Single AF point, or AF Expansion (One pt plus 4) or (AF Surround (One pt plus 8). Using the Canon iTR system on the 5d4, 1dx, 7d2 I do much worse as it seems to be overcome by speed. It tracks birds in a clear sky quite well though. The Nikon D5 that did better than my Canon bodies tracking birds against the non-sky background did so in One Point, or D9 or D21 point mode, not using 3 -D Tracking, with the user making a continued effort to keep that point on the moving subject. So far neither 3D Tracking nor iTR seems to be the best at holding onto a subject against a structured or dark background..if the subject is going fast, that is..slow subjects it works of course :)
 
Nov 8, 2011
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On Feb the 8th' Art discovered (or "discovered" I am not in a position to know) how to take successful BIF pictures with Canon equipment and he sells this guide for 10$ !

Quoting from From it's blog dated February 8th, 2018
...
New Canon AF Settings for Birds in Flight/Free to all BAA Canon Camera User's Guide Owners
...
New Canon AF Settings for Birds in Flight
As I mentioned previously here, it is somewhat ironic that right before I switched to Nikon a third of the way into my San Diego trip I started getting my best-ever results with birds in flight with my Canon gear. That included images made with the 1DX II and the 5D Mark IV. I made one major change in the settings and for the first time, it made a world of difference (as you can see in the sharp-on-the-eyes image above, that with the bird flying right at me).
...
AI Servo/Shutter button AF as originally framed. The AF information including and especially the AF Area selection mode and the Case settings for this image are classified.
...

Canon AF Settings for Birds in Flight … an illustrated e-mail: $10. Free with proof of purchase for any BAA Camera Users Guide.

http://www.birdsasart-blog.com/2018/02/08/new-canon-af-settings-for-birds-in-flight-free-to-all-baa-canon-camera-users-guide-owners/

And my comment:

I wonder what you think/how you feel about all that...
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
1,985
239
Vancouver, BC
tron said:
On Feb the 8th' Art discovered (or "discovered" I am not in a position to know) how to take successful BIF pictures with Canon equipment and he sells this guide for 10$ !

...

I wonder what you think/how you feel about all that...
I just about spewed coffee laughing. It's so fortuitous that he figured this out just before he switched to Nikon!
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
1,985
239
Vancouver, BC
ethanz said:
And now charges $10 to us Canon Luddites to know what his secret sauce is.
Secret sauce: point camera at bird more better!

By the way, he took that shot with a big tripod and a pro gimbal (Induro GIT304L + Mongoose M3.6). Guess what. I can get awesome, accurate autofocus ratios on big, slow-moving waterfowl when my camera is on a tripod and a gimbal, too. If you can't get a sharp photo of a pelican with a gimbal-mounted 5D4 or 1DXII, the solution is pretty simple: spend more time taking pictures.
 
Nov 8, 2011
3,802
162
Talys said:
tron said:
On Feb the 8th' Art discovered (or "discovered" I am not in a position to know) how to take successful BIF pictures with Canon equipment and he sells this guide for 10$ !

...

I wonder what you think/how you feel about all that...
I just about spewed coffee laughing. It's so fortuitous that he figured this out just before he switched to Nikon!
;D And he switched to Nikon never the less. Maybe to ... punish Canon for not working so nice before ... his discovery ;D ;D ;D