Canon 70D vs. 6D - Which is the better "Do-It-All" camera?

neuroanatomist

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Jul 21, 2010
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MichaelHodges said:
I've read the 70D has major focus issues, too. It's all over the net, unfortunately. Sad to hear this, but I'm not surprised based on my 7D experience.
LOL. Sure, everything on the internet is true. Whatever you do, don't Google "<your make/model car> engine problems" or else instead of buying your next lens, you'll be buying a new car for fear that yours is about to die at any moment. Oops, did you just run that same search for the cars you were considering buying? Hope you like walking… ::)
 

MichaelHodges

EOS 7D MK II
Nov 7, 2012
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0
neuroanatomist said:
MichaelHodges said:
I've read the 70D has major focus issues, too. It's all over the net, unfortunately. Sad to hear this, but I'm not surprised based on my 7D experience.
LOL. Sure, everything on the internet is true. Whatever you do, don't Google "<your make/model car> engine problems" or else instead of buying your next lens, you'll be buying a new car for fear that yours is about to die at any moment. Oops, did you just run that same search for the cars you were considering buying? Hope you like walking… ::)
Well, that's an "appeal to extremes" logical fallacy if I ever saw one. ;)

Because the internet is the internet doesn't mean there isn't faulty gear.
 

Zlyden

EOS T7i
Nov 8, 2013
85
0
Well... the discussion is very interesting, but... we still do not have any information from OP about:

1) Why he does not like T2i anymore? (Why he wants to upgrade it?)

2) Why he needs "Do-It-All" camera? (I do not think such thing exists, unless it's some future "iPhone 7S".)

3) Why he uses this very strange/weird/crazy lens collection on APS-C camera (like 50 + 70-200)?
 

neuroanatomist

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Jul 21, 2010
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MichaelHodges said:
neuroanatomist said:
MichaelHodges said:
I've read the 70D has major focus issues, too. It's all over the net, unfortunately. Sad to hear this, but I'm not surprised based on my 7D experience.
LOL. Sure, everything on the internet is true. Whatever you do, don't Google "<your make/model car> engine problems" or else instead of buying your next lens, you'll be buying a new car for fear that yours is about to die at any moment. Oops, did you just run that same search for the cars you were considering buying? Hope you like walking… ::)
Well, that's an "appeal to extremes" logical fallacy if I ever saw one. ;)

Because the internet is the internet doesn't mean there isn't faulty gear.
The "major focusing issues" that you've read about "all over the Internet" seem to have come from two people who were able to demonstrate legitimate problems with their 70D, followed by a whole bunch of other people who performed inadequate and inconclusive testing, but still determined they had a problem with their cameras (which they may have, except the problem isn't with the hardware but rather with the person holding the camera). Of those two individuals, one of them subsequently reported that he had sent his camera in for service, and Canon found it to be effective.

Two people able to document a problem among the huge number of cameras produced, but it's "all over the Internet" and people should avoid buying the camera because of this 'huge problem'. But hey, if a few forum posts support your own bias, they must be true! Oh well, that's the Internet for you… ::)
 

MichaelHodges

EOS 7D MK II
Nov 7, 2012
423
0
neuroanatomist said:
The "major focusing issues" that you've read about "all over the Internet" seem to have come from two people who were able to demonstrate legitimate problems with their 70D, followed by a whole bunch of other people who performed inadequate and inconclusive testing, but still determined they had a problem with their cameras (which they may have, except the problem isn't with the hardware but rather with the person holding the camera). Of those two individuals, one of them subsequently reported that he had sent his camera in for service, and Canon found it to be effective.

Two people able to document a problem among the huge number of cameras produced, but it's "all over the Internet" and people should avoid buying the camera because of this 'huge problem'. But hey, if a few forum posts support your own bias, they must be true! Oh well, that's the Internet for you… ::)

So you know for certain that only two 70D's have focus issues? You must be extremely busy.
 

Don Haines

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Jun 4, 2012
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Zlyden said:
Well... the discussion is very interesting, but... we still do not have any information from OP about:

1) Why he does not like T2i anymore? (Why he wants to upgrade it?)

2) Why he needs "Do-It-All" camera? (I do not think such thing exists, unless it's some future "iPhone 7S".)

3) Why he uses this very strange/weird/crazy lens collection on APS-C camera (like 50 + 70-200)?
The 70-200 (any variant) is a far superior longer lens than any of the APS-C lenses. It's probably the most used lens with my 60D.... It gives great reach on a crop body and (the F4 IS version anyway) is light enough to be easily carried around and fits into a smaller sized pelican case.

Image is heavily cropped and taken from a canoe today with a 60D and 70-200F4IS.
 

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Marsu42 said:
David_in_Seattle said:
Did you read the original post? The guy is debating on purchasing the 70D or the 6D and cannot afford the 5Dmk3.
Did you read the original post? The guy is thinking about shooting video and sports and is trying to decide between a 70d and a 6d, the latter can only be called "very mediocre" for these purposes.
That's why I pointed out the 70D for his needs in videography and sports while I recommended the 6D for his wife's wedding and portrait photography.

Here's the first paragraph of my original response:
"If your wife is getting more serious about wedding and portraiture photography then the 6D is the better choice. However, if you're getting paid for recording dance and sports then the 70D's dual pixel AF system for video is a huge improvement over any previous DSLR."

My point was that given his budget, he has to decide whether his wife's need or his own needs in a camera are a higher priority.
 

neuroanatomist

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traingineer said:
MichaelHodges said:
The 7d is notorious for the imprecise af system
And where does it say the 7D is commonly known for an imprecise AF system? ???
All over the Internet, obviously. ;) The 40D was a better camera anyway, everyone on the Internet said so when the 7D came out. Now...my 7D, which I used for years to shoot birds, wildlife, and other subjects with which my 5DII's AF (which performs much like the 6D's AF) couldn't keep up, that camera didn't have a notoriously imprecise AF. My Subaru's engine is just fine, too. Could something 'all over the Internet' possibly be wrong?

Obviously, any manufacturing/QC process lets a few defective units out – the cost of manufacturing perfection is unsupportable. But the vast majority of people who get a properly functioning product don't inundate multiple forums with posts about how perfect their cameras are. Advising against purchasing a product because of a few (relative to units sold) complaints on the Internet is foolish.
 

Zlyden

EOS T7i
Nov 8, 2013
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Don Haines said:
Image is heavily cropped and taken from a canoe today with a 60D and 70-200F4IS.
Wow! Cool!

Is this scene a 'sporting event' or a 'wedding'? ;D
(Why wedding can not be classified as sporting event, anyway?)
 

Marsu42

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Feb 7, 2012
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traingineer said:
And where does it say the 7D is commonly known for an imprecise AF system? ???
See Lensrentals, other than "all over the net" this is one source I trust... scroll down to the 50d vs 7d vs 60d graph. Subjectively, this squares with my experience that the 60d af works just fine (it just has too few points and zero af tracking fw configuration) while I now and again read about 7d users struggling with their 7d.

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/autofocus-reality-part-3b-canon-cameras

In their test the newest t4i is the most precise, that's why I assumed this trend to continue with the 70d - but as I wrote above, I didn't research this and Canon might have also just put the very same 7d af module into the newer camera.
 

neuroanatomist

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Marsu42 said:
traingineer said:
And where does it say the 7D is commonly known for an imprecise AF system? ???
See Lensrentals, other than "all over the net" this is one source I trust... scroll down to the 50d vs 7d vs 60d graph. Subjectively, this squares with my experience that the 60d af works just fine (it just has too few points and zero af tracking fw configuration) while I now and again read about 7d users struggling with their 7d.

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/08/autofocus-reality-part-3b-canon-cameras

In their test the newest t4i is the most precise, that's why I assumed this trend to continue with the 70d - but as I wrote above, I didn't research this and Canon might have also just put the very same 7d af module into the newer camera.
The difference between the T3i and T4i might approach significance, but there's really no significant difference between the 50D, 7D, 60D, and T3i, and 5DII. About all you can conclude from those graphs is that the 1D X and 5DIII are significantly better.

Also, bear in mind that Roger states, "We then tested it in our Imatest lab using one copy of each Canon camera we carry." I didn't notice that the first time I read the article. One copy? Knowing what Roger knows about variability, I'm surprised he tested only one copy of each camera.
 

MichaelHodges

EOS 7D MK II
Nov 7, 2012
423
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neuroanatomist said:
Advising against purchasing a product because of a few (relative to units sold) complaints on the Internet is foolish.
That's a bit presumptuous, isn't it? I'm assuming you're making that statement because you are privy to Canon's repair center data?

As users outside of Canon's internal workings we can only judge product satisfaction through feedback of our peers. And, accordingly, the "noise" out there for the 70D and 7D seems to be much higher than their other camera bodies.

I sympathize with many who complain about the 7D/70D focus issues as my experience mirrors the inconsistency.

The complaints of the 70D are especially interesting (many from Germany, it seems) which uses the same AF as the 7D:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUUxpneyGsY

A petition to Canon with 400 signatures:

https://www.openpetition.de/petition/online/canon-70d-autofokus-maengel-fuer-eine-ehrliche-stellungnahme-von-canon


Now, does this mean every Canon 70D is bad? Of course not. But that doesn't matter when you're one of the customers who got a bad one, and you lose great shots, and suddenly find yourself beyond the return date.
 

neuroanatomist

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MichaelHodges said:
The complaints of the 70D are especially interesting (many from Germany, it seems) which uses the same AF as the 7D:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUUxpneyGsY

A petition to Canon with 400 signatures:

https://www.openpetition.de/petition/online/canon-70d-autofokus-maengel-fuer-eine-ehrliche-stellungnahme-von-canon

Now, does this mean every Canon 70D is bad? Of course not. But that doesn't matter when you're one of the customers who got a bad one, and you lose great shots, and suddenly find yourself beyond the return date.
Thanks for supporting my point, albeit unintentionally. That video was linked earlier in this thread, and based on the information provided in the clip, the 'problem' being demonstrated – sharp images with live view, OOF images with viewfinder AF – is exactly what AFMA is designed to correct. How many of those 400 petition signers know what AFMA is, and have properly calibrated their lenses? I suspect the number of petitioin signers with a camera that's actually defective is much smaller than 400, as many of those people quite likely read about it on the Internet, and decided they have a problem unit despite not checking appropriately. So, you have a few people in Germany with cameras that are actually defective…and it's the second best selling dSLR in the country according to Amazon.

Why Germany? Most likely beacuse someone there got a defective camera and posted about it on a German-language forum.

Sure, it's unfortunate that some people get defective products, but as I stated, defective units are unavoidable in any mass-produced item. In the case of the 70D, the camera came out less than one year ago, meaning everyone who owns one still has warranty coverage provided by Canon.

When a problem is documented and widespread, Canon issues a Product Advisory and provides free repair for the problem, even after warranty coverage has expired. Among EOS Bodies, there have been service notices for lots of them, including the 7D. The 7D's documented issues were a residual image (corrected by firmware update) and an issue the off-center points non functioning as cross-type with a few very old Canon lenses (also affected 40D-60D, and probably affects the 70D, and the newer Rebel/xxxD bodies that inherited the 40-60D AF; more significant was that the problem also affected a few 3rd party lenses, like the fairly popular Tamron 17-50/2.8…but that's not Canon's problem, is it?). No where on the list of Product Advisories is there an issue listed for inconsistency/imprecision of the 7D's or 70D's AF system.
 

Don Haines

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neuroanatomist said:
MichaelHodges said:
The complaints of the 70D are especially interesting (many from Germany, it seems) which uses the same AF as the 7D:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUUxpneyGsY

A petition to Canon with 400 signatures:

https://www.openpetition.de/petition/online/canon-70d-autofokus-maengel-fuer-eine-ehrliche-stellungnahme-von-canon

Now, does this mean every Canon 70D is bad? Of course not. But that doesn't matter when you're one of the customers who got a bad one, and you lose great shots, and suddenly find yourself beyond the return date.
Thanks for supporting my point, albeit unintentionally. That video was linked earlier in this thread, and based on the information provided in the clip, the 'problem' being demonstrated – sharp images with live view, OOF images with viewfinder AF – is exactly what AFMA is designed to correct. How many of those 400 petition signers know what AFMA is, and have properly calibrated their lenses? I suspect the number of petitioin signers with a camera that's actually defective is much smaller than 400, as many of those people quite likely read about it on the Internet, and decided they have a problem unit despite not checking appropriately. So, you have a few people in Germany with cameras that are actually defective…and it's the second best selling dSLR in the country according to Amazon.

Why Germany? Most likely beacuse someone there got a defective camera and posted about it on a German-language forum.

Sure, it's unfortunate that some people get defective products, but as I stated, defective units are unavoidable in any mass-produced item. In the case of the 70D, the camera came out less than one year ago, meaning everyone who owns one still has warranty coverage provided by Canon.

When a problem is documented and widespread, Canon issues a Product Advisory and provides free repair for the problem, even after warranty coverage has expired. Among EOS Bodies, there have been service notices for lots of them, including the 7D. The 7D's documented issues were a residual image (corrected by firmware update) and an issue the off-center points non functioning as cross-type with a few very old Canon lenses (also affected 40D-60D, and probably affects the 70D, and the newer Rebel/xxxD bodies that inherited the 40-60D AF; more significant was that the problem also affected a few 3rd party lenses, like the fairly popular Tamron 17-50/2.8…but that's not Canon's problem, is it?). No where on the list of Product Advisories is there an issue listed for inconsistency/imprecision of the 7D's or 70D's AF system.
I think that some of the problem is an expectation that "my new camera" that I paid so much for will nail the autofocus every time.... and when it doesn't, it's the camera that is to blame.

In a way, the statement is true. The 70D does not nail every shot every time. Even in a studio setup on a tripod with good lighting and a printed target, there will be variations in autofocus from shot to shot. What is missing from the understanding is that this problem is common to ALL cameras from ALL manufacturers. As systems get better and AF technology advances, the hit rate will get higher and the variation will get lower, but it will never reach 100% and no variation.
 

Marsu42

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neuroanatomist said:
When a problem is documented and widespread, Canon issues a Product Advisory and provides free repair for the problem, even after warranty coverage has expired.
They do?! I believe you since you're a long time around, but out of interest: When did Canon offer free hardware repair after warranty on non-1d cameras?

MichaelHodges said:
And, accordingly, the "noise" out there for the 70D and 7D seems to be much higher than their other camera bodies.
That is also my impression, but in all fairness this really doesn't mean anything: It could be simply because buyers of a "premium camera" like 7d or at least a "premium af system" like 70d expect better performance and complain more while the rest of us with Rebels and xxd simply says "well, you get what you pay for".

I know the effect because I'm much more critical with my €1600 6d than my (former €900) 60d, obviously often to the dismay of 6d fanbois or - probably a better description - people who cannot find anything wrong with the 6d af system :-}
 

neuroanatomist

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Jul 21, 2010
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Marsu42 said:
neuroanatomist said:
When a problem is documented and widespread, Canon issues a Product Advisory and provides free repair for the problem, even after warranty coverage has expired.
They do?! I believe you since you're a long time around, but out of interest: When did Canon offer free hardware repair after warranty on non-1d cameras?
Click on some of the service notices, where the problem is a fixable hardware issue, it's fixed for free regardless of timing. For example, the rubber grip issue for the T4i - "Affected cameras that exhibit this phenomenon will be inspected and the rubber grips will be replaced free of charge," or the original 5D's mirror falling out - "We will repair and reinforce the mirror portion of the affected products free of charge." Worth noting that the 5D mirror advisory was issued in 2009 - the 5DII had been released and the 5D was discontinued by that point.
 

MichaelHodges

EOS 7D MK II
Nov 7, 2012
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neuroanatomist said:
is exactly what AFMA is designed to correct. How many of those 400 petition signers know what AFMA is, and have properly calibrated their lenses? I suspect the number of petitioin signers with a camera that's actually defective is much smaller than 400, as many of those people quite likely read about it on the Internet, and decided they have a problem unit despite not checking appropriately. So, you have a few people in Germany with cameras that are actually defective…and it's the second best selling dSLR in the country according to Amazon.

In this scenario, you're presuming things you have no way to check upon unless you work for Canon, or have the skills of a great prophet.

One person could make the case this online noise means only a few duds exist, while another could claim the noise represents a much larger number, like statistical polling does.

Either way is presumptuous unless you have the actual raw data. The only way for non-Canon employees to gauge product satisfaction is from their peers ,or, as you say below, a product recall. But as you and I both know, mega-corporations are not exactly models of self-regulation.

Sure, it's unfortunate that some people get defective products, but as I stated, defective units are unavoidable in any mass-produced item. In the case of the 70D, the camera came out less than one year ago, meaning everyone who owns one still has warranty coverage provided by Canon.
Unfortunately, that means nothing. My 7D had the dreaded focus issue. I shall not go into the details here.
 

neuroanatomist

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MichaelHodges said:
In this scenario, you're presuming things you have no way to check upon unless you work for Canon, or have the skills of a great prophet.

One person could make the case this online noise means only a few duds exist, while another could claim the noise represents a much larger number, like statistical polling does.

Either way is presumptuous unless you have the actual raw data. The only way for non-Canon employees to gauge product satisfaction is from their peers ,or, as you say below, a product recall. But as you and I both know, mega-corporations are not exactly models of self-regulation.




Unfortunately, that means nothing. My 7D had the dreaded focus issue. I shall not go into the details here.
The fact that there was no recall for the 7D's 'dreaded focus issue' (cue Darth Vader theme song) is evidence that it is not a widespread problem (I certainly didn't experience it, nor did any of several friends who use/used a 7D).

If Canon issues a recall for the 70D's AF 'problem that is all over the Internet' (or if China televises an exposé and bans sale of the camera in their country, like they did for the Nikon D600), I'll happily come back here to eat my words. Until then, no matter how much frustration a small number of users feel nor how many posts/polls/petitions they make on the internet to express their frustration, the fact remains that they represent only a tiny fraction of users, and their best recourse is to send their cameras in to Canon for service.
 

AlanF

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Aug 16, 2012
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My experience is 1 7D and 1 70D. My 7D had the same variability in AF as reported by lensrentals, and the AF with the 300mm f/2.8 II + 2xTCIII could be very, very slow, which is why I sold it. My 70D is as consistent as my 5DIII, which is superb, and focusses fast with the 300mm f/2.8 at 600mm.