Do you think the 90D is superior to the 7DII?

AlanF

Canon 5DSR II
Aug 16, 2012
5,806
3,297
Unless Canon made another mistake in their material here, it is.....
Thanks for tracking it down. I remembered both figures being quoted and that it had definitely been upgraded. I hunted through the Canon site to find the figure as I always check every fact but I failed to find the Canon figure on the official specs page and so quoted both sources for either 120,000 or 200,000. The Canon 5DIV has a quoted life of 150,000 actuations so the 90D is getting closer to one of the favourite pro cameras.
The 90D may not be up to the Armoured Personnel Carrier (pace Talys) ruggedness of the 7DII but it will be tougher than the perfectly competent 80D. Looking forward to the lensrental tear down.
 

Aussie shooter

@brett.guy.photography
Dec 6, 2016
486
486
I would dare say that(subject to actual use not showing inherent failures) that the 90d is the best all round crop sensor DSLR ever made. The best 'Jack of all trades' so to speak. I can't think of anything that is better.
 

haggie

EOS 80D
May 11, 2016
150
47
I would dare say that(subject to actual use not showing inherent failures) that the 90d is the best all round crop sensor DSLR ever made. The best 'Jack of all trades' so to speak. I can't think of anything that is better.
Based on the specs (....) I tend to agree with this.

But the original question was "Do you think the 90D is superior to the 7DII?". And for several reasons the 90D, being a superb allrounder, cannot match a 5-years old specialist like the 7D Mk II.

The main reasons that the 90D cannot even match the 90D as an action camera have already been mentioned in several earlier posts:
-ergonomics of the controls on the body
-customization, in particular the AF-system
-properties of the AF-system (e.g. number of AF-points, AF Point Expansion)
-durability of the camera body
-shutter life
All these properties make a difference when shooting fast moving subjects in changing circumstances (light, weather).

Off course, lacking these do not suddenly make the 90D useless in such circumstances, but they sure help you get the most from each situation that is thrown at the photographer. And in action photography you generally cannot influence the environment (lighting etc) that much.

But I think it is relevant to add what is more important for many 7D Mk II owners: the 90D is no improvement over the 7D Mk II (except for the DR if recent rumors prove to be correct). And an improvement is what is wanted by at least some of them: although a capable camera by itself, it is not the best cropped action camera around.

For me, the 7D Mk III would have been a no-brainer to purchase. It should have been technically possible for Canon to improve the 7D Mk II on DR and some of its AF-specifications (mainly accuracy for fast moving subjects and with subjects with less than ideal contrast). But it has become clear that Canon wnats to 'push' its action photographers towards either Full Frame DSLR or the action-oriented mirrorless that will probably be rumored soon after the excitement about the 90D has subdued.
 

AlanF

Canon 5DSR II
Aug 16, 2012
5,806
3,297
... what is more important for many 7D Mk II owners: the 90D is no improvement over the 7D Mk II (except for the DR if recent rumors prove to be correct)..
32.5 Mpx vs 20 Mpx is not an improvement? For those 7DII users who are often struggling for every mm of reach, and there are many of those, it's a 27% increase in resolution - your 400mm lens will have the reach of a 500mm.
 
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Maximilian

The dark side - I've been there
Nov 7, 2013
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...
The main reasons that the 90D cannot even match the 90D as an action camera have already been mentioned
...
Sometimes I ask myself, how (action) photos could have been taken 10, 20, 30 or even 40 years ago....:rolleyes:

I think before the release of an 7DII anybody would have taken the 90D happily and gratefully as an action camera. (e.g. compared to the original 7D)

If one also takes the initial MSRP of both 7DII and 90D into account then those slight downgrades are less crucial.
If those are a deal breaker to somebody that's understandable. But nobody is forced to buy a camera that isn't wanted.
 
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Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
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32.5 Mpx vs 20 Mpx is not an improvement? For those 7DII users who are often struggling for every mm of reach, and there are many of those, it's a 27% increase in resolution - your 400mm lens will have the reach of a 500mm.
I have a 7D2 and love it. It has superior ergonomics in some areas over the 90D and is more robust. The 90D has articulated touchscreen, better and higher density sensor, and other improvements.

If my 7D2 died, I would get a 90D.
 

bichex

EOS M50
Dec 9, 2014
35
53
As the owner of both 80D and 7D2 cameras, I believe that 80D does not come near 7D2. Obviously I have not tried the 90D but it seems a good evolution of the 80D, getting a little closer in some aspects to the 7D2, beyond a better sensor. I think the question should be "do you think 90D is approaching what a 7D3 could have been" and for me the answer is a resounding "NO"
 

AlanF

Canon 5DSR II
Aug 16, 2012
5,806
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I have a 7D2 and love it. It has superior ergonomics in some areas over the 90D and is more robust. The 90D has articulated touchscreen, better and higher density sensor, and other improvements.

If my 7D2 died, I would get a 90D.
Then, it's just a question of what dies first - you or your 7DII.
 

haggie

EOS 80D
May 11, 2016
150
47
Sometimes I ask myself, how (action) photos could have been taken 10, 20, 30 or even 40 years ago....:rolleyes:

That is not the issue I (implicitely) raised. Even at present there are a lot of situations that are a big challenge for the best action cameras. Specific combinations of lighting, high speed and very manouevrable subjects, etc. . And on the other hand, several situations that are more or less standard to shoot nowadays certainly were not so "10, 20, 30 or even 40 years ago".
The point is that advancements in technology allow photographing situations that were almost impossible before that.
And I have run into situations where my camera/lens combo was the limiting factor.

For some, an acknowledged general purpose camera may be an imprvement enough for what they do and want.
But in the broader sense, the 90D is no improvement for me who is looking for a better cropped action camera than the 7D Mk II (although I understand AlanF's long standing argument for higher pixel-count). And I am not the only one with this.



But nobody is forced to buy a camera that isn't wanted.

Indeed. It is a matter of personal requirements and priorities.
So if the brand I have been using for a few decades now does not bring me the improvemed DSLR that I look for, than all options to at least get a better DSLR than my present 7D Mk II are open.
 
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Maximilian

The dark side - I've been there
Nov 7, 2013
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... Even at present there are a lot of situations that are a big challenge for the best action cameras. ...
To me - and in the past - challenging situations are mostly a challenge to the photographer and not to the equipment.
Of course, the better suited the equipment the less prepared the photographer has and had to be.
I prefer to be prepared - no matter how good my equipment is.
This allows me to even do BIF with a 200D/SL2. Although I admit that the hitrate would have been better with a 90D AF and FPS ;)
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
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It does have spot AF according to the official Canon site. I experimented earlier this year with 4 and 8 point expansion vs 9-point zone and decided to use the 9-points for birds in flight including hummingbirds, which I have been recently posting, and flying dragonflies. The shutter durability has been upgraded. According to Photography Life it is now rated at 200,000 cycles https://photographylife.com/canon-80d-vs-90d although TDP has it at 120,000.
The wings of hummingbirds and dragonflies move so fast that I doubt any AF system could focus on the wings instead of the main body of either.

It's good to see that they added Spot AF to the 90D. That was not listed in any of the "leaked' specs prior to the official release.

As far as the shutter durability rating goes, I'd place my bet on TDP being correct vs. PL. YMMV.
 

AlanF

Canon 5DSR II
Aug 16, 2012
5,806
3,297
The wings of hummingbirds and dragonflies move so fast that I doubt any AF system could focus on the wings instead of the main body of either.

It's good to see that they added Spot AF to the 90D. That was not listed in any of the "leaked' specs prior to the official release.

As far as the shutter durability rating goes, I'd place my bet on TDP being correct vs. PL. YMMV.
TDP was correct. Rudy Winston had the info, which wasn't on the Canon official specs page. I gave both values as I didn't know which was correct. At least 120,000 is getting closer to the 150,000 actuations of the 5DIV. I thank Joules for getting the info.
 

AlanF

Canon 5DSR II
Aug 16, 2012
5,806
3,297
The wings of hummingbirds and dragonflies move so fast that I doubt any AF system could focus on the wings instead of the main body of either.

It's good to see that they added Spot AF to the 90D. That was not listed in any of the "leaked' specs prior to the official release.

As far as the shutter durability rating goes, I'd place my bet on TDP being correct vs. PL. YMMV.
The AF of the 5DSR does seem to work for hummingbirds and dragonflies using the central zone.

3Q7A9388-DxO_White-necked+jacobin-flying_Small.jpg
3Q7A2766-DxO_emperor_dragonfly_flying.jpg
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
1,105
543
Based on the specs (....) I tend to agree with this.

But the original question was "Do you think the 90D is superior to the 7DII?". And for several reasons the 90D, being a superb allrounder, cannot match a 5-years old specialist like the 7D Mk II.

The main reasons that the 90D cannot even match the 90D as an action camera have already been mentioned in several earlier posts:
-ergonomics of the controls on the body
-customization, in particular the AF-system
-properties of the AF-system (e.g. number of AF-points, AF Point Expansion)
-durability of the camera body
-shutter life
All these properties make a difference when shooting fast moving subjects in changing circumstances (light, weather).

Off course, lacking these do not suddenly make the 90D useless in such circumstances, but they sure help you get the most from each situation that is thrown at the photographer. And in action photography you generally cannot influence the environment (lighting etc) that much.

But I think it is relevant to add what is more important for many 7D Mk II owners: the 90D is no improvement over the 7D Mk II (except for the DR if recent rumors prove to be correct). And an improvement is what is wanted by at least some of them: although a capable camera by itself, it is not the best cropped action camera around.

For me, the 7D Mk III would have been a no-brainer to purchase. It should have been technically possible for Canon to improve the 7D Mk II on DR and some of its AF-specifications (mainly accuracy for fast moving subjects and with subjects with less than ideal contrast). But it has become clear that Canon wnats to 'push' its action photographers towards either Full Frame DSLR or the action-oriented mirrorless that will probably be rumored soon after the excitement about the 90D has subdued.
In all fairness, the 90D is much closer to the 7D Mark II than the 80D in terms of ergonomics. It has a joystick, a "Q" button, a second wheel (albeit smaller than the one on the 7D Mark II) on the back, pretty much identical controls on the top right of the camera, etc. Everything you use with the right hand on the 7D Mark II during shooting is there on the 90D.

Again, in all fairness the 90D does allow the three customizable AF settings previously unseen in the x0D line: tracking sensitivity, accel/decel tracking, and AF point auto-switching are customizable with the 90D.

Your other three points are valid.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
1,105
543
To me - and in the past - challenging situations are mostly a challenge to the photographer and not to the equipment.
Of course, the better suited the equipment the less prepared the photographer has and had to be.
I prefer to be prepared - no matter how good my equipment is.
This allows me to even do BIF with a 200D/SL2. Although I admit that the hitrate would have been better with a 90D AF and FPS ;)
OK. Let's see you take an 8X10 view camera and go shoot the next Super Bowl?

The truth about whether gear matters or not is this:

Gear doesn't matter... until it does.

The photographer always matters, but sometimes gear also matters. No matter how good the photographer is sometimes the limitations of the gear will prevent the photographer from being able to get a shot that the photographer is capable of getting with gear up to the task.
 
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haggie

EOS 80D
May 11, 2016
150
47
To me - and in the past - challenging situations are mostly a challenge to the photographer and not to the equipment.
Of course, the better suited the equipment the less prepared the photographer has and had to be.
I prefer to be prepared - no matter how good my equipment is.
This allows me to even do BIF with a 200D/SL2. Although I admit that the hitrate would have been better with a 90D AF and FPS ;)

There obviously is more to it than you want to acknowledge.

Perhaps you are that good or perhaps you just do not need any advanced equipment for your photography. Then you are one of those people that could even uffice with the equipment from "10, 20, 30 or even 40 years ago" that you yourself mentioned earlier. Why get anything more advanced then?

If your arguments would be complete, then nobody would need a Canon 1DX or Nikon D5. And Canon and Nikon would not make them, because there is no need for them. Then we all would have your 200D/SL2 and perhaps the 90D you are so keen to promote for those that have too much money to spend.
 

AlanF

Canon 5DSR II
Aug 16, 2012
5,806
3,297
That's exactly my point. The wings are moving too fast to distract the AF system from the central body. With other targets, such as large raptors, that is not the case when they are soaring.
Michael, here are 3 shots taken at random from my birds-in-flight in the last fortnight in Ecuador focussing using the central 9 points. Would I use if they didn't work?
3Q7A6134-DxO_galapagos_hawk_flying_small.jpg
3Q7A5077-DxO_brown_pelican_flyingsmall.jpg
3Q7A5407-DxO_brown_noddy_flyingSmall.jpg
 
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Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
1,105
543
TDP was correct. Rudy Winston had the info, which wasn't on the Canon official specs page. I gave both values as I didn't know which was correct. At least 120,000 is getting closer to the 150,000 actuations of the 5DIV. I thank Joules for getting the info.
120,000 is still a lot closer to the 80D's 100,000 rating than the 7D Mark II's 200,000 rating.

In real world usage, the gap between the 60D/70D/80D shutter life and the 7D Mark II shutter life is even larger. Check out the Camera Shutter Life Expectancy Database.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
1,105
543