TS-E 17 for tilt on 5DsR?

[Zeidora]

I'm thinking of pulling the plug on a TS-E 17 mm for my 5DsR. Purpose: landscapes and environmental portraits of plants, so mainly tilt, not shift as in architecture. I am familiar with movements from doing 4x5 LF. My other lenses are mainly Zeiss primes, and I like to use the Zeiss 21 ZE a lot for that purpose. Possibly my third-most used lens after makroplanar 100 and MP-E 65. I have the Zeiss 15 and 25/2.

Given that I like the 21 a lot, I suspect that the TS-E 24 will be too narrow. The TS-E 17 has slightly lower IQ ratings compared to the TS-E 24. Cropping the 17 mm with 104 degrees to 24 mm angle of 84 degrees should only reduce the image size by about 20% linear (44% area/file size), and I assume that lens errors are more pronounced towards the periphery. Apparently, it is possible to use a 1.4xTC, but that sounds a bit scary. Ergo, given the file sizes of the 5DsR, cropping is an option. MF and checking focal plane position in live view with magnifier is just like LF.

Given my likings of Zeiss primes, will the TS-E 17 be disappointing? Is there anything special to consider when tilting the TS-E 17 on a 5DsR? Price-wise, it is only slightly more than an average Zeiss lens, quite a bit less than several others.

Thanks for any experiences you can share!

 

[NWPhil]

Can you rent it first?
not sure what you call environmental portraits of plants, but indeed the shift feature of this lens is indeed often used for landscapes, more than the tilt.
Would you consider the canon 11-24 instead?
I don't have a 5Dsr neither the 11-24, but I can tell you that I like more the color rendition with the zeiss 15mm than with the tse-17
well, search for Ben Egbert on Fred Miranda site - I believe he has a 5DSr with either the 17mm or the 11-24mm, and he is a landscape photographer

(brown)- corrections due to lack of coffee

 

[GMCPhotographics]

I'm thinking of pulling the plug on a TS-E 17 mm for my 5DsR. Purpose: landscapes and environmental portraits of plants, so mainly tilt, not shift as in architecture. I am familiar with movements from doing 4x5 LF. My other lenses are mainly Zeiss primes, and I like to use the Zeiss 21 ZE a lot for that purpose. Possibly my third-most used lens after makroplanar 100 and MP-E 65. I have the Zeiss 15 and 25/2.

Given that I like the 21 a lot, I suspect that the TS-E 24 will be too narrow. The TS-E 17 has slightly lower IQ ratings compared to the TS-E 24. Cropping the 17 mm with 104 degrees to 24 mm angle of 84 degrees should only reduce the image size by about 20% linear (44% area/file size), and I assume that lens errors are more pronounced towards the periphery. Apparently, it is possible to use a 1.4xTC, but that sounds a bit scary. Ergo, given the file sizes of the 5DsR, cropping is an option. MF and checking focal plane position in live view with magnifier is just like LF.

Given my likings of Zeiss primes, will the TS-E 17 be disappointing? Is there anything special to consider when tilting the TS-E 17 on a 5DsR? Price-wise, it is only slightly more than an average Zeiss lens, quite a bit less than several others.

Thanks for any experiences you can share!

I've not used one on a 5DsR. But the TS-e lenses are not casual use lenses. To get the best out of them, use a tripod and really learn how the movements are to be used carefully. It's not and easy lens to master.
I would be surprised if you could see any difference in image quality between the TSe 24IIL and the TSe 17L.
The IQ drops for both lenses when the shift , tilt or swing functions are used to their maximum.
The lack of flare on the 17L is very impressive, but that element really sticks out so it's more likely to pick up flare than a regular lens. Metering has to be done before any adjustments (best to dial in M settings) as even a slight shift or swing will cause the camera to meter to be way way off.
Most people who buy these lenses get very frustrated by them and either over use the effect or blatantly miss use them.
The TSe 17L is a great optic but the movement mechanism can cause a lot of copy variation and even cause some inconsistency between shoots with the same lens.
I have seen a number of guys using the 24 and 17 as primes-replacement...ie not using any of their movement functions (locking them all down) so that they make stellar 24 and 17mm lenses. Which is fine, but it's kind of missing the whole point of this type of lens and trying to lever an advantage of the larger format area to get around typical lens design drawbacks. I think anyone who would pop for a £2.5K lens to by pass a bit of vignetting and field curvature....needs their head examined. Correct verticals, DOF and convergences....that's what this lens is for.

 

[J.R.]

If you want to use 'tilt' on a 17mm, is zeiss even an option? Zeiss is not available where I live so not sure whether it does offer tilt functionality.

That being said, the 17mm works fine with a 1.4x extender and gives high IQ of a 24mm prime - there is nothing scary about it.

 

[Zeidora]

Thanks for the replies.
NWPhil: interesting re color between Zeiss 15 and TS-E 17. Environmental portraits is a flowering herb with flower in focus in the larger natural landscape with infinity in focus -> Tilt/Swing.
GMC: I saw the surprisingly low flare tendency given the bulging front lens.
Re settings, tripod etc. that is no problem. I almost always shoot on tripod, frequently shoot in M mode. I do shoot LF, so am familiar with movements, and doing all the settings manually. For me it is not as much corrections of straight lines, but having focal plane at angle to sensor plane (Tilt/Swing, not shift/rise/fall).
Interesting comment on copy-to-copy variation. Will have to keep that in mind.
JR: Zeiss does not offer a TS lens, don't think they ever had. It is more the question of how does IQ of a Zeiss 15/21 compare to a TS-E 17, particularly on a high MP body. The image degradation with more extreme movements is duly noted. Same is true for LF WA (have a Schneider 72XL).

 

[NWPhil]

Thanks for the replies.
(...)
JR: Zeiss does not offer a TS lens, don't think they ever had. It is more the question of how does IQ of a Zeiss 15/21 compare to a TS-E 17, particularly on a high MP body. The image degradation with more extreme movements is duly noted. Same is true for LF WA (have a Schneider 72XL).

well, sort of does, but not directly:
http://www.hartbleilens.com/
http://diglloyd.com/articles/Hartblei-pub/Main.html

 

[GMCPhotographics]

Thanks for the replies.
NWPhil: interesting re color between Zeiss 15 and TS-E 17. Environmental portraits is a flowering herb with flower in focus in the larger natural landscape with infinity in focus -> Tilt/Swing.
GMC: I saw the surprisingly low flare tendency given the bulging front lens.
Re settings, tripod etc. that is no problem. I almost always shoot on tripod, frequently shoot in M mode. I do shoot LF, so am familiar with movements, and doing all the settings manually. For me it is not as much corrections of straight lines, but having focal plane at angle to sensor plane (Tilt/Swing, not shift/rise/fall).
Interesting comment on copy-to-copy variation. Will have to keep that in mind.
JR: Zeiss does not offer a TS lens, don't think they ever had. It is more the question of how does IQ of a Zeiss 15/21 compare to a TS-E 17, particularly on a high MP body. The image degradation with more extreme movements is duly noted. Same is true for LF WA (have a Schneider 72XL).

If you use the Live view level and then do the shift...it's a lot easier than trying it by eye

 

[LDS]

It is more the question of how does IQ of a Zeiss 15/21 compare to a TS-E 17, particularly on a high MP body.

The 17 TS-E allows you to obtain images that are impossible with the Zeiss. Thereby if you plan to use it most of the time tilted and/or shifted, you "can't" compare it with the Zeiss really

Even if there is a difference in IQ, is it so large to offset the advantages of a TS lens?

 

[jprusa]

I really love my TS-E 17 for tilt on 5DsR although I must say it was the most difficult lens to get the hang of. I found a refurbished lens from the Canon store and saved a lot of money.

 

[Zeidora]

NWPhil: thanks for the Hartblei [= German for "solid lead" as in the chemical symbol Pb] lens link. Medium format is not something I keep taps on. Still interesting.
The in-camera level certainly is helpful. Tripod also has a bubble level, so covered form all angles there. I do understand Scheimpflug.
LDS: well understood. The question is, is IQ so disappointing that I would not use the TS-E. There's also the lens baby for similar effects, but IQ is a whole other topic. From what I gather, IQ is quite good and the added TS-feature make it a very worth-while lens.

I'll see whether there may be some deals at the Los Angeles Photoexpo on May. Otherwise, I'll just get it and have some fun with it.

Thanks again everybody for input and thoughts.