1DX - Ai Servo Issue - Low light focus failure! Final Update 05/09/12
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justaphotographer
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Re: 1DX (possible) Ai Servo Issue - Sort of - Fixed! UPDATE 27/07
Hi Sycotek,
I am having exactly the same problem. I mean EXACTLY the same problem. In low(ish) (not even really that low light actually) when in AF-SERVO mode the camera just goes to infinity and back and does not lock focus at all. In ONE-SHOT it locks on very very quickly. Back to AF-SERVO...AF craps out again. It is 100% repeatable. Below you wrote that if you leave the AF setting at stock default it works properly. Well not for me. After I made a backup of all my current settings I reset everything back to default (including the custom function setting). The camera was in "out of the box" state. Yet, the AF-SERVO in low(ish) light problem is still there. This tells me that it isn't a settings issue, but something else that is going on with the camera.
I tested this with every single one of my lenses and they all have exactly the same problem. ONE-SHOT nails focus, but AF-SERVO (go to infinity and back and never locks focus).
The troubling thing about this is that this is not even that low of a light setting. Clearly ONE-SHOT has no problem. Even my older 5D2 with center focus on AF-SERVO can lock on just fine. There is definitely something strange going on here. Please keep this thread updated as to what Canon says.
Hi Sycotek,
I am having exactly the same problem. I mean EXACTLY the same problem. In low(ish) (not even really that low light actually) when in AF-SERVO mode the camera just goes to infinity and back and does not lock focus at all. In ONE-SHOT it locks on very very quickly. Back to AF-SERVO...AF craps out again. It is 100% repeatable. Below you wrote that if you leave the AF setting at stock default it works properly. Well not for me. After I made a backup of all my current settings I reset everything back to default (including the custom function setting). The camera was in "out of the box" state. Yet, the AF-SERVO in low(ish) light problem is still there. This tells me that it isn't a settings issue, but something else that is going on with the camera.
I tested this with every single one of my lenses and they all have exactly the same problem. ONE-SHOT nails focus, but AF-SERVO (go to infinity and back and never locks focus).
The troubling thing about this is that this is not even that low of a light setting. Clearly ONE-SHOT has no problem. Even my older 5D2 with center focus on AF-SERVO can lock on just fine. There is definitely something strange going on here. Please keep this thread updated as to what Canon says.
Sycotek said:
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justaphotographer
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Re: 1DX (possible) Ai Servo Issue - Sort of - Fixed! UPDATE 27/07
I just now tested a 5D classic in AF-SERVO mode (center point) on the same object in the same light and was ABLE to track focus perfectly.
Again the 5D2 and 5D Classic on the same object in AF-SERVO mode can lock on no problem.
I just now tested a 5D classic in AF-SERVO mode (center point) on the same object in the same light and was ABLE to track focus perfectly.
Again the 5D2 and 5D Classic on the same object in AF-SERVO mode can lock on no problem.
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Re: 1DX (possible) Ai Servo Issue - Sort of - Fixed! UPDATE 27/07
One more update. I actually think this isn't a low light AF-SERVO problem, but rather a low contrast AF-SERVO problem. I just tested in bright light trying to focus using AF-SERVO on a low contrast object and this is what happened...
1Dx...fail
5D2...perfect tracking
5D Classic...perfect tracking
Remember this is in bright light. So my current conclusion is that the new 61 AF system in AF-SERVO mode cannot lock on to or track low contrast objects. This make sense, because the other day (in daylight no less) I was trying to track someone in AF-SERVO, but the 1Dx kept failing. I just tossed it up to the fact that it was a fluke, but now I think about it he had a solid black shirt with hardly any contrast.
If all cameras failed under these conditions we can just say well Phase Detection AF can't track low contrast objects and just live with it, but as I have tested on the 5D2 and 5D classic in AF-SERVO, it shows that those older cameras can track without a problem, the exact same objects that the 1Dx and 5D3 fails to track.
One more update. I actually think this isn't a low light AF-SERVO problem, but rather a low contrast AF-SERVO problem. I just tested in bright light trying to focus using AF-SERVO on a low contrast object and this is what happened...
1Dx...fail
5D2...perfect tracking
5D Classic...perfect tracking
Remember this is in bright light. So my current conclusion is that the new 61 AF system in AF-SERVO mode cannot lock on to or track low contrast objects. This make sense, because the other day (in daylight no less) I was trying to track someone in AF-SERVO, but the 1Dx kept failing. I just tossed it up to the fact that it was a fluke, but now I think about it he had a solid black shirt with hardly any contrast.
If all cameras failed under these conditions we can just say well Phase Detection AF can't track low contrast objects and just live with it, but as I have tested on the 5D2 and 5D classic in AF-SERVO, it shows that those older cameras can track without a problem, the exact same objects that the 1Dx and 5D3 fails to track.
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Re: 1DX (possible) Ai Servo Issue - Sort of - Fixed! UPDATE 27/07
Okay I've made a very helpful discovery on the 1Dx that could be a slight workaround until Canon fixes this problem. In an attempt to solve this problem I discovered something pretty interesting.
If you go to C.Fn3
rive and then the Continuous Shooting Speed setting and change High Speed from 12 (default) to anything 10 or less you will get a boost in AI-SERVO tracking in low light. As soon as I bump that back up to 12fps the camera cannot track in low light very. Change back down to 10 or slower and tracking is definitely better. This is 100% repeatable.
Even at 10fps setting the tracking isn't nearly as good in low light as an older 5D2, but still better (without question) than when the camera is set to 12fps.
I am wondering if Canon traded off low light tracking to get that high rate of 12fps and that is why at 14fps the autofocus stops all together. Interesting.
In the meantime what I have done as a workaround is to set the Low Speed setting to 10fps and left the High Speed setting to 12fps. This way when I'm in good contrast/good light I can get the benefit of the full 12fps and when I am in low light I can just quickly switch the AF Drive mode to Low and get greatly increased tracking ability under that lighting condition.
Could you guys report this to Canon (I will when I get back from my 2 week assignment---I leave tomorrow so I don't have time) so that they can be aware of this in case they can adjust this in the next firmware?
Okay I've made a very helpful discovery on the 1Dx that could be a slight workaround until Canon fixes this problem. In an attempt to solve this problem I discovered something pretty interesting.
If you go to C.Fn3
rive and then the Continuous Shooting Speed setting and change High Speed from 12 (default) to anything 10 or less you will get a boost in AI-SERVO tracking in low light. As soon as I bump that back up to 12fps the camera cannot track in low light very. Change back down to 10 or slower and tracking is definitely better. This is 100% repeatable.Even at 10fps setting the tracking isn't nearly as good in low light as an older 5D2, but still better (without question) than when the camera is set to 12fps.
I am wondering if Canon traded off low light tracking to get that high rate of 12fps and that is why at 14fps the autofocus stops all together. Interesting.
In the meantime what I have done as a workaround is to set the Low Speed setting to 10fps and left the High Speed setting to 12fps. This way when I'm in good contrast/good light I can get the benefit of the full 12fps and when I am in low light I can just quickly switch the AF Drive mode to Low and get greatly increased tracking ability under that lighting condition.
Could you guys report this to Canon (I will when I get back from my 2 week assignment---I leave tomorrow so I don't have time) so that they can be aware of this in case they can adjust this in the next firmware?
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Re: 1DX (possible) Ai Servo Issue - Sort of - Fixed! UPDATE 27/07
Okay last update for now. The settings change totally improves AI-SERVO tracking in low light, but it is still definitely not even close to as good as the 5D2 (center point) for low light/low contrast tracking.
Still though, there is definite improvement for low light AI-SERVO tracking by simply changing the max FPS from 12 to 10. I just hope Canon can tweak things so that it is as good as the 5D2 center point focus tracking in low light/contrast (yeah I know strange that I have to even write that sentence).
I hope this is fixable in firmware rather than it being a tradeoff for having 12fps shooting.
Okay last update for now. The settings change totally improves AI-SERVO tracking in low light, but it is still definitely not even close to as good as the 5D2 (center point) for low light/low contrast tracking.
Still though, there is definite improvement for low light AI-SERVO tracking by simply changing the max FPS from 12 to 10. I just hope Canon can tweak things so that it is as good as the 5D2 center point focus tracking in low light/contrast (yeah I know strange that I have to even write that sentence).
I hope this is fixable in firmware rather than it being a tradeoff for having 12fps shooting.
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Re: 1DX (possible) Ai Servo Issue - Sort of - Fixed! UPDATE 27/07
Hi justaphotographer,
I haven't had any issues using the reset config I got from canon - I have now reconfigured my own without touching the af settings and it worked fine last-night at another runway tracking black subjects at 1/250 f4 iso 10K <- this was not fun...)
I believe like you its a contrast issue. But the default configuration doesn't exhibit the same issues that I had with my tweaked config.
eg. single 60w equivalent cfl room light trying to track my gf face - the broken config wont lock on anything. The reset config locks on Her eye brows and eyes, under her nose and lips as if it was nothing.
The test with canon was well below -2ev (i could not see the other reps eyes yet the camera locked on as if it was nothing and focussed accurately) broken config just hunted - canon rep couldn't believe it.
---
As annoying as it is if you haven't tried it - i would recommend making a backup of your current config and send it to me, then testing out the config i got from canon - i'll pass your broken one to canon so they have a second point of reference.
I will also test out your finding tomorrow and get back you if i can replicate it
Hi justaphotographer,
I haven't had any issues using the reset config I got from canon - I have now reconfigured my own without touching the af settings and it worked fine last-night at another runway tracking black subjects at 1/250 f4 iso 10K <- this was not fun...)
I believe like you its a contrast issue. But the default configuration doesn't exhibit the same issues that I had with my tweaked config.
eg. single 60w equivalent cfl room light trying to track my gf face - the broken config wont lock on anything. The reset config locks on Her eye brows and eyes, under her nose and lips as if it was nothing.
The test with canon was well below -2ev (i could not see the other reps eyes yet the camera locked on as if it was nothing and focussed accurately) broken config just hunted - canon rep couldn't believe it.
---
As annoying as it is if you haven't tried it - i would recommend making a backup of your current config and send it to me, then testing out the config i got from canon - i'll pass your broken one to canon so they have a second point of reference.
I will also test out your finding tomorrow and get back you if i can replicate it
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justaphotographer
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Re: 1DX (possible) Ai Servo Issue - Sort of - Fixed! UPDATE 27/07
Thank you so much for you reply Sycotek. I just sent you a private message.
Thank you so much for you reply Sycotek. I just sent you a private message.
Sycotek said:Hi justaphotographer,
I haven't had any issues using the reset config I got from canon - I have now reconfigured my own without touching the af settings and it worked fine last-night at another runway tracking black subjects at 1/250 f4 iso 10K <- this was not fun...)
I believe like you its a contrast issue. But the default configuration doesn't exhibit the same issues that I had with my tweaked config.
eg. single 60w equivalent cfl room light trying to track my gf face - the broken config wont lock on anything. The reset config locks on Her eye brows and eyes, under her nose and lips as if it was nothing.
The test with canon was well below -2ev (i could not see the other reps eyes yet the camera locked on as if it was nothing and focussed accurately) broken config just hunted - canon rep couldn't believe it.
---
As annoying as it is if you haven't tried it - i would recommend making a backup of your current config and send it to me, then testing out the config i got from canon - i'll pass your broken one to canon so they have a second point of reference.
I will also test out your finding tomorrow and get back you if i can replicate it
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justaphotographer
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Re: 1DX (possible) Ai Servo Issue - Sort of - Fixed! UPDATE 27/07
Okay Sycotek,
I had a chance to load and play around with your "canon fixed" config version. It totally confirmed my finding actually. As soon as I loaded your fixed config I noticed that it put the camera into multi-shot L drive mode. It tracked wonderfully in low(ish) light. Do you know why? Because in the C.Fn3rive setting section, the multi-shot L drive mode puts the camera into 3 frames per second (fps). As soon as I changed to multi-shot H drive mode (which is set for 12 fps) you're fixed camera craps out again in AI-SERVO in low light/contrast. As soon as I go back to 3 fps (in multi-shot L drive mode) the camera performs much better in low light/contrast.
That is the only setting I changed on your fixed version and it totally affected the tracking ability (or a lack there of) of the camera in low light/contrast. This confirms my finding. All that the fix version is doing is putting your camera into 3 frames per second mode.
Can you test it yourself and confirm? Thank again for all the great work you are doing to help try and solve this. I am now convinced mostly that Canon needs to tweak this camera for better tracking in low light/contrast when it is in 12 fps mode.
Okay Sycotek,
I had a chance to load and play around with your "canon fixed" config version. It totally confirmed my finding actually. As soon as I loaded your fixed config I noticed that it put the camera into multi-shot L drive mode. It tracked wonderfully in low(ish) light. Do you know why? Because in the C.Fn3
rive setting section, the multi-shot L drive mode puts the camera into 3 frames per second (fps). As soon as I changed to multi-shot H drive mode (which is set for 12 fps) you're fixed camera craps out again in AI-SERVO in low light/contrast. As soon as I go back to 3 fps (in multi-shot L drive mode) the camera performs much better in low light/contrast.That is the only setting I changed on your fixed version and it totally affected the tracking ability (or a lack there of) of the camera in low light/contrast. This confirms my finding. All that the fix version is doing is putting your camera into 3 frames per second mode.
Can you test it yourself and confirm? Thank again for all the great work you are doing to help try and solve this. I am now convinced mostly that Canon needs to tweak this camera for better tracking in low light/contrast when it is in 12 fps mode.
Sycotek said:Hi justaphotographer,
I haven't had any issues using the reset config I got from canon - I have now reconfigured my own without touching the af settings and it worked fine last-night at another runway tracking black subjects at 1/250 f4 iso 10K <- this was not fun...)
I believe like you its a contrast issue. But the default configuration doesn't exhibit the same issues that I had with my tweaked config.
eg. single 60w equivalent cfl room light trying to track my gf face - the broken config wont lock on anything. The reset config locks on Her eye brows and eyes, under her nose and lips as if it was nothing.
The test with canon was well below -2ev (i could not see the other reps eyes yet the camera locked on as if it was nothing and focussed accurately) broken config just hunted - canon rep couldn't believe it.
---
As annoying as it is if you haven't tried it - i would recommend making a backup of your current config and send it to me, then testing out the config i got from canon - i'll pass your broken one to canon so they have a second point of reference.
I will also test out your finding tomorrow and get back you if i can replicate it
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Re: 1DX (possible) Ai Servo Issue - Sort of - Fixed! UPDATE 27/07
Hi Mate,
Just tested your theory out - in my configuration where i know the camera will fail if i used the bugged out config - my fixed version works regardless of being on L or H.
Scratch that - I can confirm similar findings!!!
Is it possible to upload an image regarding the scene/target that you are testing on? And please add what lenses you are using (as canon will ask)
-Alex
Hi Mate,
Just tested your theory out - in my configuration where i know the camera will fail if i used the bugged out config - my fixed version works regardless of being on L or H.
Scratch that - I can confirm similar findings!!!
Is it possible to upload an image regarding the scene/target that you are testing on? And please add what lenses you are using (as canon will ask)
-Alex
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justaphotographer
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Re: 1DX (possible) Ai Servo Issue - Sort of - Fixed! UPDATE 27/07
Hi Alex,
Hmmm this is very strange indeed. I loaded your config file and AI-SERVO was great! Then the only single thing I changed was to go from L to H and as soon as I did that AI-SERVO was horrible again. I then changed back to L and once again it was near perfect. I kept going back and forth and it was reproducible 100% of the time. Yes let me give you more detail about my gear (don't have time just yet for uploading pictures though)
I tested this on multiple lenses. 50 1.2, 50 1.4, and 24 1.4 II. I have yet to try my other lenses. All behaved exactly the same in terms of how responsive the AI-SERVO was.
This might suggest something else is going on. Although I still don't think it's hardware because clearly when I switch to L the AI-SERVO works great and when I switch back to H the AI-SERVO is bad again. I am not sure why you are not seeing that or why I am not see what you are getting. Hmmmm
Hi Alex,
Hmmm this is very strange indeed. I loaded your config file and AI-SERVO was great! Then the only single thing I changed was to go from L to H and as soon as I did that AI-SERVO was horrible again. I then changed back to L and once again it was near perfect. I kept going back and forth and it was reproducible 100% of the time. Yes let me give you more detail about my gear (don't have time just yet for uploading pictures though)
I tested this on multiple lenses. 50 1.2, 50 1.4, and 24 1.4 II. I have yet to try my other lenses. All behaved exactly the same in terms of how responsive the AI-SERVO was.
This might suggest something else is going on. Although I still don't think it's hardware because clearly when I switch to L the AI-SERVO works great and when I switch back to H the AI-SERVO is bad again. I am not sure why you are not seeing that or why I am not see what you are getting. Hmmmm
Sycotek said:Hi Mate,
Just tested your theory out - in my configuration where i know the camera will fail if i used the bugged out config - my fixed version works regardless of being on L or H.
Is it possible to upload an image regarding the scene/target that you are testing on? And please add what lenses you are using and/or have available to use so we can test with similar gear if possible
-Alex
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Re: 1DX (possible) Ai Servo Issue - Sort of - Fixed! UPDATE 27/07
Mate I chucked everything on a tripod to make sure there was no funny business and You are correct L is fine H hunts...
I will report this on Monday.
justaphotographer said:Hi Alex,
Hmmm this is very strange indeed. I loaded your config file and AI-SERVO was great! Then the only single thing I changed was to go from L to H and as soon as I did that AI-SERVO was horrible again. I then changed back to L and once again it was near perfect. I kept going back and forth and it was reproducible 100% of the time. Yes let me give you more detail about my gear (don't have time just yet for uploading pictures though)
I tested this on multiple lenses. 50 1.2, 50 1.4, and 24 1.4 II. I have yet to try my other lenses. All behaved exactly the same in terms of how responsive the AI-SERVO was.
This might suggest something else is going on. Although I still don't think it's hardware because clearly when I switch to L the AI-SERVO works great and when I switch back to H the AI-SERVO is bad again. I am not sure why you are not seeing that or why I am not see what you are getting. Hmmmm
Sycotek said:Hi Mate,
Just tested your theory out - in my configuration where i know the camera will fail if i used the bugged out config - my fixed version works regardless of being on L or H.
Is it possible to upload an image regarding the scene/target that you are testing on? And please add what lenses you are using and/or have available to use so we can test with similar gear if possible
-Alex
Mate I chucked everything on a tripod to make sure there was no funny business and You are correct L is fine H hunts...
I will report this on Monday.
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Re: 1DX (possible) Ai Servo Issue - Sort of - Fixed! UPDATE 27/07
Oh not great, but great in that at least we are seeing the same thing. This brings us closer to a possible cause and hopefully a solution by Canon. Thank you so much for reporting this to Canon. I would report it myself on Monday, but I will be traveling on assignment for couple of weeks. If I can get a break in-between I too will report this. I will however have access to the internet from my phone so I will check back in here in case you or anyone else has any updates on this issues. Of course if I find out anything new myself I will report here so that everyone can benefit from this dialog. Thanks Alex again for all your great help.
-Alex
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[/quote]
Mate I chucked everything on a tripod to make sure there was no funny business and You are correct L is fine H hunts...
I will report this on Monday.
[/quote]
Oh not great, but great in that at least we are seeing the same thing. This brings us closer to a possible cause and hopefully a solution by Canon. Thank you so much for reporting this to Canon. I would report it myself on Monday, but I will be traveling on assignment for couple of weeks. If I can get a break in-between I too will report this. I will however have access to the internet from my phone so I will check back in here in case you or anyone else has any updates on this issues. Of course if I find out anything new myself I will report here so that everyone can benefit from this dialog. Thanks Alex again for all your great help.
-Alex
[/quote]
[/quote]
Mate I chucked everything on a tripod to make sure there was no funny business and You are correct L is fine H hunts...
I will report this on Monday.
[/quote]
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Re: 1DX (possible) Ai Servo Issue - Sort of - Fixed! UPDATE 27/07
Great question Neuro. Yes I have ID a threshold (I tested each frames per second until I ran into the problem). First of all though, the camera will not let you set L above H and vice versa. However using H I have discovered the threshold is 10 fps. That is to say 10 fps and lower seems to work well, but anything above that causes the AI-SERVO to have a melt down (ha!) in low light/contract.
Great question Neuro. Yes I have ID a threshold (I tested each frames per second until I ran into the problem). First of all though, the camera will not let you set L above H and vice versa. However using H I have discovered the threshold is 10 fps. That is to say 10 fps and lower seems to work well, but anything above that causes the AI-SERVO to have a melt down (ha!) in low light/contract.
neuroanatomist said:
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Re: 1DX (possible) Ai Servo Issue - Sort of - Fixed! UPDATE 27/07
So logically the sampling rate that the light meter feeds scene information to the servo isn't large/fast enough under low light to sufficiently provide data to the AF. I can't get anyone at canon to explain how the light meter is tied to the new af let alone the sampling rates, however going by the findings tonight that would be my initial thought as to what is going on
justaphotographer said:
So logically the sampling rate that the light meter feeds scene information to the servo isn't large/fast enough under low light to sufficiently provide data to the AF. I can't get anyone at canon to explain how the light meter is tied to the new af let alone the sampling rates, however going by the findings tonight that would be my initial thought as to what is going on
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Re: 1DX (possible) Ai Servo Issue - Sort of - Fixed! UPDATE 27/07
By the way, so everyone knows...I HATE this kind of stuff. I never come online unless I have a problem I need to solve. Like all of you I'm sure, I would totally rather be just doing my job as a photographer, but when you come across a problem like this that actually affects your work and how you work, it causes me to want to find a solution. Hence my search here where I discovered others who saw the same exact problem as I. I know nothing is perfect, but I just wish this wasn't such a big problem. I'm a photojournalist who shoots in very low light very very often so this is a problem that I actually ran into while on assignment so it has real world consequences.
Just wanted to let everyone know I sure wish we could just forget all this and just focus on picture making. However, this is a pretty big issue that has to be addressed. I can let go of a great deal and accept a number of faults, but this seems like something Canon need to address for a camera of this class and price.
By the way, so everyone knows...I HATE this kind of stuff. I never come online unless I have a problem I need to solve. Like all of you I'm sure, I would totally rather be just doing my job as a photographer, but when you come across a problem like this that actually affects your work and how you work, it causes me to want to find a solution. Hence my search here where I discovered others who saw the same exact problem as I. I know nothing is perfect, but I just wish this wasn't such a big problem. I'm a photojournalist who shoots in very low light very very often so this is a problem that I actually ran into while on assignment so it has real world consequences.
Just wanted to let everyone know I sure wish we could just forget all this and just focus on picture making. However, this is a pretty big issue that has to be addressed. I can let go of a great deal and accept a number of faults, but this seems like something Canon need to address for a camera of this class and price.
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