4 stop push: 5DS vs 5D Mk III

[Eldar]

When you lift shadow +100 in LR, you have lifted about 2-2.5 stops.

Doesn't work quite like that, how much it pushes depends on how deep the shadows are to begin with. If they are relatively bright in the first place it does almost nothing. So you can't really compare it to a global push of the image.

Yes, you got it. The way I understand the numbers on the shadow and highlight sliders are that they are subjective and vary photo to photo, dependent on complicated matters such as msm described.

I am fully aware of this. I have compared a number of images and checked how much I need to increase EC to get the same deep shadow lift. There is not one correct answer, since the areas you lift shadow will have more or less shadow. So when we compare, we need to take this into account. When I say 2-2.5 stops, it is based on those comparisons I did. You can get more and you can get less.

 

[romanr74]

The proof of the pudding ...

The exposure for this one was set to get the buildings to the left and the sky properly exposed. The histogram for the raw image is packed from left to right. For those of you who never lift more than 2 stops and never lift shadows to +100. Tell me what I have done here.

You have done something that makes the picture look quite unnatural... Not every "light situation" should be used for a photo, only because sensor tech allows to flatten the picture. It's still called "photography"...

 

[jprusa]

The 5Ds is really a niche camera for a special purpose. Most of us are better off with another model.

I hear this all the time and it is just rubbish. The only issue you have with the 5DS/5DSR, compared to a 5DIII, or any other DSLR, is file size. Everything else is same same or better. Currently I only use my 1DX for high fps and low light. Everything else is now shot with the 5DSR, because it is That good and That versatile.

And for those who say they have never pushed more than 2 stops, I simply don't believe you, unless you live in a flat light environment all the time. When you lift shadow +100 in LR, you have lifted about 2-2.5 stops. How many have done that, plus some additional adjustments? I did not beleive I had ever gone as far as 3 stops, until I realized how much push shadow lifiting represent, I realize I have passed 4 stops numerous times. Not for the entire frame, but for areas. And for the record, I do read histograms and I do pay attention to exposure, so save the condesending "they don't know what thery're doing.." statements, because it might be that you get them in return.

+1

 

[Eldar]

The 5Ds is really a niche camera for a special purpose. Most of us are better off with another model.

I hear this all the time and it is just rubbish. The only issue you have with the 5DS/5DSR, compared to a 5DIII, or any other DSLR, is file size. Everything else is same same or better. Currently I only use my 1DX for high fps and low light. Everything else is now shot with the 5DSR, because it is That good and That versatile.

And for those who say they have never pushed more than 2 stops, I simply don't believe you, unless you live in a flat light environment all the time. When you lift shadow +100 in LR, you have lifted about 2-2.5 stops. How many have done that, plus some additional adjustments? I did not beleive I had ever gone as far as 3 stops, until I realized how much push shadow lifiting represent, I realize I have passed 4 stops numerous times. Not for the entire frame, but for areas. And for the record, I do read histograms and I do pay attention to exposure, so save the condesending "they don't know what thery're doing.." statements, because it might be that you get them in return.

Wow. I would not call the 5dsr versatile by any means. Low frame rate and limited in ISO. This has no real use in my bag. The removal of antialiasing has some merits and this is a good pilot model. Though not good for sports, not good for wildlife unless you are shooting birds on a stick. Perhaps it's most useful purpose is for landscapes on a tripod. Versatility is more than just what you can do with it in Lightroom.

I am more interested in where they take this on the 2nd and 3rd generation.

One big difference; I have it, you don´t! Consequence: You don´t have a clue what this camera can do, I do!
This first is an ISO2500 BIF, which is impossible ...

 

[Eldar]

This second one is an ISO6400, straight from the camera, zero noise reduction. Even an amateur like me can fix this in post ...

 

[East Wind Photography]

The 5Ds is really a niche camera for a special purpose. Most of us are better off with another model.

I hear this all the time and it is just rubbish. The only issue you have with the 5DS/5DSR, compared to a 5DIII, or any other DSLR, is file size. Everything else is same same or better. Currently I only use my 1DX for high fps and low light. Everything else is now shot with the 5DSR, because it is That good and That versatile.

And for those who say they have never pushed more than 2 stops, I simply don't believe you, unless you live in a flat light environment all the time. When you lift shadow +100 in LR, you have lifted about 2-2.5 stops. How many have done that, plus some additional adjustments? I did not beleive I had ever gone as far as 3 stops, until I realized how much push shadow lifiting represent, I realize I have passed 4 stops numerous times. Not for the entire frame, but for areas. And for the record, I do read histograms and I do pay attention to exposure, so save the condesending "they don't know what thery're doing.." statements, because it might be that you get them in return.

Wow. I would not call the 5dsr versatile by any means. Low frame rate and limited in ISO. This has no real use in my bag. The removal of antialiasing has some merits and this is a good pilot model. Though not good for sports, not good for wildlife unless you are shooting birds on a stick. Perhaps it's most useful purpose is for landscapes on a tripod. Versatility is more than just what you can do with it in Lightroom.

I am more interested in where they take this on the 2nd and 3rd generation.

One big difference; I have it, you don´t! Consequence: You don´t have a clue what this camera can do, I do!
This first is an ISO2500 BIF, which is impossible ...

Now you are the big kid in the house trying to show off your toys shooting seagulls and bookshelves. Moving on here. Nothing else to see.

 

[zim]

When you lift shadow +100 in LR, you have lifted about 2-2.5 stops.

Would anyone know if that shadow lift (+100) = stops (2-2.5) is the same in DxO Optics Pro Selective tones?

and would you have to include the Blacks Selective tone with shadow to equate to an actual stop of exposure?

Thanks

You could try an experiment: process the same image with shadows in two different ways: once by +100 in shadows and secondly by +2 in overall exposure and then compare.

Just did it: +100 is closer to +4 stops.+50 is close to +2 stops

Cheers Alan, not sure I trust my eyes that much but I'll give it a bash!

I've never used +100 I think I used +75 once but never actually did anything with the image in the end. From your numbers I do lift shadows about 1 stop quite regularly, I think (hope!) that's probably more preference than error correction.

Regards

 

[zim]

Thirlmere Reservoir , Allerdale, Lake District, Cumbria by Tom Scott, on Flickr

Superb, love everything about this photograph

 

[tomscott]

Thank you Zim

 

[Eldar]

Now you are the big kid in the house trying to show off your toys shooting seagulls and bookshelves. Moving on here. Nothing else to see.

He he, you´re a funny guy. I just gave you a couple of examples of things you can do with this camera, that you claim it can´t do. No, unlike you, I want people on CR to understand what they can do with this camera, whereas you are trying to convince them of its lack of capability without the faintest clue of what it can do. You should consider staying off your keyboard until you have something to offer.

I was very sceptical to this camera when it was announced and I made the decision not to get it. After a few thousand shots, I am very impressed.

In general, people with strong opinions about equipment they have never used, very often reside somewhere between ignorant, arrogant and stupid ...

 

[bdunbar79]

Maybe he missed the FACT that it had the same AF system as the 1Dx.

 

[Sporgon]

Wow. I would not call the 5dsr versatile by any means. Low frame rate and limited in ISO. This has no real use in my bag. The removal of antialiasing has some merits and this is a good pilot model. Though not good for sports, not good for wildlife unless you are shooting birds on a stick. Perhaps it's most useful purpose is for landscapes on a tripod. Versatility is more than just what you can do with it in Lightroom.

I am more interested in where they take this on the 2nd and 3rd generation.

One big difference; I have it, you don´t! Consequence: You don´t have a clue what this camera can do, I do!
This first is an ISO2500 BIF, which is impossible ...
[/quote]

Now you are the big kid in the house trying to show off your toys shooting seagulls and bookshelves. Moving on here. Nothing else to see.
[/quote]

?

I think that's one nil to Eldar. I'm finding his posts on the 5Dsr informative.

 

[Viggo]

Wow. I would not call the 5dsr versatile by any means. Low frame rate and limited in ISO. This has no real use in my bag. The removal of antialiasing has some merits and this is a good pilot model. Though not good for sports, not good for wildlife unless you are shooting birds on a stick. Perhaps it's most useful purpose is for landscapes on a tripod. Versatility is more than just what you can do with it in Lightroom.

I am more interested in where they take this on the 2nd and 3rd generation.

One big difference; I have it, you don´t! Consequence: You don´t have a clue what this camera can do, I do!
This first is an ISO2500 BIF, which is impossible ...

Now you are the big kid in the house trying to show off your toys shooting seagulls and bookshelves. Moving on here. Nothing else to see.
[/quote]

?

I think that's one nil to Eldar. I'm finding his posts on the 5Dsr informative.
[/quote]
+1

 

[scyrene]

I already have 7d2 so I will probably pick up 5ds when price drops. Should be cool combo.

I dunno where you are, but in the UK the price has already dropped a lot! I've seen it for £1999. Exciting

The 5Ds is really a niche camera for a special purpose. Most of us are better off with another model.

I hear this all the time and it is just rubbish. The only issue you have with the 5DS/5DSR, compared to a 5DIII, or any other DSLR, is file size. Everything else is same same or better. Currently I only use my 1DX for high fps and low light. Everything else is now shot with the 5DSR, because it is That good and That versatile.

Yeah, I'm still thinking of getting it as my next camera, and I do a lot of (mostly perched) bird work. Almost the same in every way as the 5D3 except much more resolution. And I crop a lot, so that's the most important thing to me right now!

Wow. I would not call the 5dsr versatile by any means. Low frame rate and limited in ISO. This has no real use in my bag. The removal of antialiasing has some merits and this is a good pilot model. Though not good for sports, not good for wildlife unless you are shooting birds on a stick. Perhaps it's most useful purpose is for landscapes on a tripod. Versatility is more than just what you can do with it in Lightroom.

(My bold). I shoot wildlife all the time. I use the 5D3 on silent shutter mode 98% of the time, and it's fast enough. I think that's a lower frame rate than the 5Ds/r's maximum, right?

The only negatives I can see from the 5DS is that you have to be very careful to ensure you don't introduce blur by shooting at a higher shutter speed, the file size and the buffer is smaller (understandably). Other than that its like a supercharged 5DMKIII.

It's worth remembering that this is only noticeable at 100% magnification - normalised it should be the same.

Ive been working on a set of images for a british company called United Utilities, I was shooting some long exposures of Thirlmere reservoir. It can be quite difficult to shoot the lakes as quite a lot of them run north to south and are deep V and U shaped valleys. So to get a sunrise or sunset you have to get up really high to get an overview to be able to see the sun. If you don't and you sit at the waterside waiting for the light the sun won't ever rise over the mountains and light the valley, you will never get to see it going down either, very hard in that golden hour. Problem with reservoirs is that they are designed to filter water so the water doesn't need as much treatment so they create dense forrest and encourage moss growth. So a lot of the time footpaths don't venture too far and if you do make the effort to hike through the forrest and undergrowth you disturb the hard work that has been achieved so it is an ethical decision, in the is case as I was working for the company who do all this work it was unethical to do so.

The answer is to wait until the sun has set and the valley is in even light and then catch the end of the sunset with the colours produced by the sunset. Add a long exposure and you get the silky movement of the sky and water.

This was shot as ISO 100 for 3 1/2 minutes using a 10 stop ND. If the exposure was any more than 3 1/2 minutes the highlights would blow and be unrecoverable. So at this length of time you get a lot of hot spots and pushing the sensor quite far. Out of the camera the image looked good but the shadows were underexposed. In lightroom I brought the exposure up to +1.65 +88 on the shadows and -100 highlight. This amazingly didn't give me a banding but I usually find I struggle with colour noise so in this case my noise reduction was set on 35 as the noise wasn't too bad for this type of increased exposure but my colour reduction is set to 45, detail at 50 and smoothness at 100. I find smoothness quite a misguiding slider as it doesn't smooth detail but red green and blue colour noise, brought it into photoshop and added 100 in the smart sharpen tab made a mask and selectively sharpened.

It then looked brilliant. I made an A1 print looks incredible and the image is below.

Thirlmere Reservoir , Allerdale, Lake District, Cumbria by Tom Scott, on Flickr

This is IMO pushing quite far and its very very rare I shoot and push the camera this far and the image still looks great, clients were thrilled and its being made into a wall print for their headquarters. Even tho the current Canon sensors aren't quite as good as the Nikon equivalent for that sort of shot similar post would have been needed and a HDR not useful because of moving elements like the sky and water so this is the only option.

Sweet gig! And great shots. How does one get to be photographer for UU?

 

[Eldar]

For those who wonder, you can also shoot at ISO12800. On this one I have applied 39 i Luminance NR. Everything else is default LR. I actually find it difficult to understand why Canon did´t also allow ISO25600.

 

[Luds34]

For those who wonder, you can also shoot at ISO12800. On this one I have applied 39 i Luminance NR. Everything else is default LR. I actually find it difficult to understand why Canon did´t also allow ISO25600.

Excuse my ignorance/laziness, but is 12800 native to the sensor? Or is it one of those digitally pushed, post processed in camera expanded modes.

Assuming it is native, that is good to know. I don't like to go past 6400 on my 6D if I can help it, but will use 12800 if needed and know that I can usually get a workable photo out of it with a little love in LR.

 

[unfocused]

Eldar and TomScott: I'm curious about your assessment of the 5DS vs. 5D III at higher ISOs. I assumed that the 5DIII still performs better at higher ISOs in terms of noise. Do you disagree? It sounds to me like the 5DIII is still slightly better, but not as significantly better as one might expect, given the higher resolution (smaller pixels).

Because of the subjects I have to shoot, dynamic range is much less important to me than high ISO performance. I'm just curious how you guys would characterize the differences.

It also sounds as though, from your experience, the improved performance of the 5DS may mean the 5DIV could be a real beast if they keep the megapixel count at 24 or so.

 

[ritholtz]

When you lift shadow +100 in LR, you have lifted about 2-2.5 stops.

Would anyone know if that shadow lift (+100) = stops (2-2.5) is the same in DxO Optics Pro Selective tones?

and would you have to include the Blacks Selective tone with shadow to equate to an actual stop of exposure?

Thanks

You could try an experiment: process the same image with shadows in two different ways: once by +100 in shadows and secondly by +2 in overall exposure and then compare.

Just did it: +100 is closer to +4 stops.+50 is close to +2 stops

Hi Alan,
Any idea why Canon doesn't allow +100 to -100 level adjustments in DPP. Is it very difficult to implement. Even with DDP 4 upgrade they still kept the levels to +5 to -5.

 

[Famateur]

I think that's one nil to Eldar. I'm finding his posts on the 5Dsr informative.

+1

+1

 

[unfocused]

I think that's one nil to Eldar. I'm finding his posts on the 5Dsr informative.

+1

+1

+ Another. I'm afraid he is going to have to be banned from Canon Rumors Forum unless he shapes up and starts opining on things he doesn't know anything about.