5D Mark III (or other) Followup

[ro_n]

new left-handed camera. Apologies if anyone finds that argument too sinister. :

only those who are maladroit... (argh, argh)

More smites for this?! C'mon guys- sinister is latin for left-handed, maladroit is a commonly-borrowed french term for the same attribute. Sheesh, have a sense of humour...

For sure, these smites are for NOT changing your avatar to that pink thingy you suggested elsewhere. ;D

btw: long time lurker, first time poster...

 

[motorhead]

I am hearing a lot of Nikon users saying that they are not going to upgrade to the D4, still more have concerns over the file sizes which will result from a 36MP sensor in a possible D800, so large that stock libraries will not accept them without downsizing.
[/quote]

From my own experience, as MP numbers climb, so do picture library requirements. No names, no pack drill, but I know of more than one that unless a contributor uses a 1DS3 or 5D2, even an uncropped image is not big enough.

So decisions made on current picture library requirements is a bit silly.

 

[necator]

It doesn't make any sense for Canon to develop a another full frame sensor in addition to the 18MP sensor of the 1D X. Using the same sensor as the 1D X is the only thing that makes sense from a cost point of view. Canon is not a charity, they are in the market to make money.

To all who are thinking that the next 5D will inevitable have the same sensor, since everything else will be canons ruin:
None of the 5D sensors have ever been the same as those from the 1Ds line.

• The 5d had 12.8MP while the 1DsMK2 had 16.6MP.
• The 5dMK2 has a similar sensor like the 1DsMK3, but not the same: DPReview says:

  21.1 megapixel full frame CMOS sensor
  The EOS 5D Mark II delivers an 8.3 megapixel jump in pixel count from the original 5D. This new sensor is said to be based on that of the EOS-1Ds Mark III (indeed it has exactly the same pixel count) but has several small changes, the hint being that it's actually slightly better.

So, alltogether, history convinces me more that the 5dMKwhatever will have a different sensor.

What, to be honest, I never understood within canons policy was the 7D. The 3rd cropped line sharing the same sensor. I'd hve awited that canon would bring a 7D with 1.3 crop back then, but they didn't. Now I don't understand what the xxD-Line is good for. But hey, canon knows how to make money

 

[EYEONE]

It doesn't make any sense for Canon to develop a another full frame sensor in addition to the 18MP sensor of the 1D X. Using the same sensor as the 1D X is the only thing that makes sense from a cost point of view. Canon is not a charity, they are in the market to make money.

To all who are thinking that the next 5D will inevitable have the same sensor, since everything else will be canons ruin:
None of the 5D sensors have ever been the same as those from the 1Ds line.

• The 5d had 12.8MP while the 1DsMK2 had 16.6MP.
• The 5dMK2 has a similar sensor like the 1DsMK3, but not the same: DPReview says:

  21.1 megapixel full frame CMOS sensor
  The EOS 5D Mark II delivers an 8.3 megapixel jump in pixel count from the original 5D. This new sensor is said to be based on that of the EOS-1Ds Mark III (indeed it has exactly the same pixel count) but has several small changes, the hint being that it's actually slightly better.

So, alltogether, history convinces me more that the 5dMKwhatever will have a different sensor.

What, to be honest, I never understood within canons policy was the 7D. The 3rd cropped line sharing the same sensor. I'd hve awited that canon would bring a 7D with 1.3 crop back then, but they didn't. Now I don't understand what the xxD-Line is good for. But hey, canon knows how to make money

I agree that the 5DIII won't have the same sensor as the 1Dx. Perhaps I should revise that. I think the 5DIII shouldn't have the same sensor, but I'm not convinced that it won't anyway. The 1DsIII and the 5DII's sensors were close enough to be counted as "the same" IMO. But that was a bit of a problem for Canon wasn't it? Canon did not give people enough reason to buy a 1DsIII over the 5DII. I would think they would want to avoid that in the future. Though in this case the 1Dx has the speed of the 1D which will give more do distinguish it.

 

[Axilrod]

ATTENTION: I'm tired of reading through pages and pages of wish lists, "oh if it has better dynamic range and better high ISO performance I'm getting it." That's pretty much the stupidest and most obvious thing you could hope for in this camera (or any upcoming camera). Of course EVERYTHING that Canon is releasing is going to have better dynamic range and lower noise at high ISO, that's just a given and it's a waste of bandwidth to even mention inevitable upgrades such as these.

Like Canon is going to forget to improve the dynamic range and iso performance if you don't mention it here on the boards, they are a multi-billion dollar company people where is the trust? Some of you guys act like Canon is just a group of retards that don't know what they are doing, they don't need your advice.

 

[Loswr]

I agree that the 5DIII won't have the same sensor as the 1Dx. Perhaps I should revise that. I think the 5DIII shouldn't have the same sensor, but I'm not convinced that it won't anyway. The 1DsIII and the 5DII's sensors were close enough to be counted as "the same" IMO. But that was a bit of a problem for Canon wasn't it? Canon did not give people enough reason to buy a 1DsIII over the 5DII. I would think they would want to avoid that in the future. Though in this case the 1Dx has the speed of the 1D which will give more do distinguish it.

But...will speed be enough? Consider...the 5D which came out after the 1DsII had fewer MP. The 5DII which camera out after the 1DsIII has the same MP. A 5DIII which comes out after the 1D X and has more MP? As I stated earlier, Canon might be ok with that, essentially throwing the 1D X under the bus in favor of huge profits from a much-improved 5DIII. But it's also possible that they'd level the playing field in other ways, perhaps ISO performance no better than that in the 5DII.

In fact...what if they just use the same sensor as in the 5DII in a new 5DIII? No one seems to be complaining about the performance of that sensor - so why not leave it alone and improve other features? We've heard rumors of a 22 MP sensor, right? Guess what - the 5DII already has a 22 MP sensor, with 21.1 MP effective pixels. Check the specs...

 

[Kernuak]

Canon did not give people enough reason to buy a 1DsIII over the 5DII. I would think they would want to avoid that in the future. Though in this case the 1Dx has the speed of the 1D which will give more do distinguish it.

Actually, a number (I don't actually know how many) of the big name wildlife photographers (i.e.those who could afford and justify the expense) had both the 1d and 1Ds lines. The idea was that the 1D would be for times when pure speed and extra reach was needed and the 1Ds for when better image quality was more important and the frame rate less so or when a larger size image was required. The focus and frame rate were significantly better on the 1Ds than the 5D line, plus the weather proofing meant they weren't driven by the weather. Professionals simply can't afford to stop shooting, simply because their cameras might get wet. I would think those reasons were good enough to differentiate. Before his switch, Ole Liodden posted a number of blog articles when the 7D came out about the weather proofing of that camera specifically, but also Canon cameras in general, stating that a number of 40Ds and 5Ds failed in the cold arctic conditions, yet the 7D (although with limited experience) carried on. He also told a story of him dropping his 1DsMkIII in the water and it carried on working without problems.

 

[astrocrab]

3x3 oversampling is more a curse than a blessing in RGB sensor with Bayer filter matrix.
Let's consider 6x6 block of pixels that will be downsampled to 2x2 pixels for video:

GRG RGR
BGB GBG
GRG RGR

BGB GBG
GRG RGR
BGB GBG

hm, no. your example is for 3x3 pixels block, not for 6x6. 1 pixel is:
GR
BG

so 6x6 block downsampled to 2x2 block looks like

GRGRGR GRGRGR
BGBGBG BGBGBG
GRGRGR GRGRGR
BGBGBG BGBGBG
GRGRGR GRGRGR
BGBGBG BGBGBG

GRGRGR GRGRGR
BGBGBG BGBGBG
GRGRGR GRGRGR
BGBGBG BGBGBG
GRGRGR GRGRGR
BGBGBG BGBGBG

so, each pixel for HD video has same number of subpixels: 18 G, 9 R and 9 B.
and there is no problems with downsampling.

 

[EYEONE]

But...will speed be enough? Consider...the 5D which came out after the 1DsII had fewer MP. The 5DII which camera out after the 1DsIII has the same MP. A 5DIII which comes out after the 1D X and has more MP? As I stated earlier, Canon might be ok with that, essentially throwing the 1D X under the bus in favor of huge profits from a much-improved 5DIII. But it's also possible that they'd level the playing field in other ways, perhaps ISO performance no better than that in the 5DII.

I'm not sure. I've considered a 5DIII with more MP than the 1Dx but I'm not sure it would be "throwing it under the bus". I think there is a market for high MP studio work and there are people that don't care as much about high ISO performance as I do. So there could be a place for the 5DIII being a higher MP camera aimed at a different market. But there is of course the fact that a very high MP 5DIII would not appeal to wedding photogs like the 5DII did. Where would they go then?

In fact...what if they just use the same sensor as in the 5DII in a new 5DIII? No one seems to be complaining about the performance of that sensor - so why not leave it alone and improve other features? We've heard rumors of a 22 MP sensor, right? Guess what - the 5DII already has a 22 MP sensor, with 21.1 MP effective pixels. Check the specs...

I'd be fine with that actually. I'd like a tweaked and reworked sensor a little bit. But honestly I'm fine with the 5DII right now except for the AF. Which is why I bought a 7D in the first place. I wanted a 5DII but there were rumors of a 5DIII floating around and I wanted to wait and see if it would have better AF (this was over a year ago mind you).

Honestly, I'd take a 5DIII that is exactly like the current if it had an up to date AF system. I think that would be marketing suicide for Canon, however.

 

[astrocrab]

Yeah, as even Canon has said they want ideal video to be done from either 2x2 or 4x4 sampling only.

3x3 would be ok too. why not?

 

[ksuweh]

Did anyone else notice the paint brush button & the "RATE" button on the left side of the camera? I'm wondering if it will have a frame rate that is selectable like the 1DX?!? Also, it looks like the CF card door isn't wide enough to enclose dual cards.

 

[astrocrab]

OK. First 3x3 has 5 greens and then 2 reds and 2 blues, next 3x3 has 4 reds 4 greens and 1 blue...

first 3x3 has 18 greens, 9 reds and 9 blues, next has same number and so on:
RG RG RG
GB GB GB

RG RG RG
GB GB GB

RG RG RG
GB GB GB

 

[Tov]

In fact...what if they just use the same sensor as in the 5DII in a new 5DIII? No one seems to be complaining about the performance of that sensor - so why not leave it alone and improve other features? We've heard rumors of a 22 MP sensor, right? Guess what - the 5DII already has a 22 MP sensor, with 21.1 MP effective pixels. Check the specs...

A very good idea. They have only up the frame rate a little and the AF( a lot more) and they have another winner.

You could be working for Canon.

 

[maciej.urbanski]

3x3 oversampling is more a curse than a blessing in RGB sensor with Bayer filter matrix.
Let's consider 6x6 block of pixels that will be downsampled to 2x2 pixels for video:

GRG RGR
BGB GBG
GRG RGR

BGB GBG
GRG RGR
BGB GBG

hm, no. your example is for 3x3 pixels block, not for 6x6. 1 pixel is:
GR
BG

so 6x6 block downsampled to 2x2 block looks like

GRGRGR GRGRGR
BGBGBG BGBGBG
GRGRGR GRGRGR
BGBGBG BGBGBG
GRGRGR GRGRGR
BGBGBG BGBGBG

GRGRGR GRGRGR
BGBGBG BGBGBG
GRGRGR GRGRGR
BGBGBG BGBGBG
GRGRGR GRGRGR
BGBGBG BGBGBG

so, each pixel for HD video has same number of subpixels: 18 G, 9 R and 9 B.
and there is no problems with downsampling.

Hmm no.
Let's go back to basics.
Each cell in RGB sensor with Bayer filter samples one wavelength coresponding to one basic color channel: red, green or blue. The two missing colors are extrapolated from surrounding samples (this process is often called "demosaicing").
Thus - one cell after demosaicing becomes full RGB triplet. One channel is sampled, other two - interpolated.
This is called pixel (picture element) and it's a basis for further processing.
Most digital cameras work that way.

Next, if we use 2x2 matrix of cells we'll have 2 greens, one blue and one red. After combining this in one pixel we'll get image with half width, half height. Each pixel of this image has all channels are sampled (but with slightly different spatial resolution). There's no interpolation, and with correct anti-alias filter we'll get near-alias-free reconstruction. This is what Canon C300 is doing internally.

If we get 3x3 matrix of cells we'll have pixels with 3 different kinds of R/G/B ratios i've described before. This is a very bad situation, because after averaging noise levels will wary depending on pixel position and channel.
There are cameras that do this but they are mostly toys (USB webcams). It's very easy to spot when you do any image analysis on such images. In high-noise situations noise has has a checkboard pattern.

From reconstruction standpoint any number of N*M cells that produce one pixel is OK as long as both M & N are even.

 

[fotoray]

ATTENTION: I'm tired of reading through pages and pages of wish lists, "oh if it has better dynamic range and better high ISO performance I'm getting it." That's pretty much the stupidest and most obvious thing you could hope for in this camera (or any upcoming camera). Of course EVERYTHING that Canon is releasing is going to have better dynamic range and lower noise at high ISO, that's just a given and it's a waste of bandwidth to even mention inevitable upgrades such as these.

Like Canon is going to forget to improve the dynamic range and iso performance if you don't mention it here on the boards, they are a multi-billion dollar company people where is the trust? Some of you guys act like Canon is just a group of retards that don't know what they are doing, they don't need your advice.

Sorry we spoiled your day!

 

[cmac]

3x3 oversampling is more a curse than a blessing in RGB sensor with Bayer filter matrix.
Let's consider 6x6 block of pixels that will be downsampled to 2x2 pixels for video:

GRG RGR
BGB GBG
GRG RGR

BGB GBG
GRG RGR
BGB GBG

hm, no. your example is for 3x3 pixels block, not for 6x6. 1 pixel is:
GR
BG

maciej.urbanski > ;D - My point! Let the others check the basics for the bayer demosaic.
astrocrab > :-[ > WRONG! a pixel has only on of the basics R or G or B data in it. That is why sensors like Foveon say that they have the only "TRUE" RGB sensor - because they have a layered sensor that produces a RGB data from a single pixel. Everyone else - CCD, CMOS etc. are bayer structured, or You want to say that Canon 5D Mark II has actually 5.x MP, because he has 21 Million bayer light sensors - 10.5 Million Greens and 5.x REDs and 5.x BLUE.

 

[Loswr]

Of course EVERYTHING that Canon is releasing is going to have better dynamic range and lower noise at high ISO, that's just a given and it's a waste of bandwidth to even mention inevitable upgrades such as these.

EVERYTHING? So...the T3i/600D has better DR and less ISO noise than the T2i/550D...or the 7D or 60D? Oh wait, they use the same sensor, so those parameters are essentially unchanged. If Canon uses the 5DII sensor in the 5DIII, then what? Oh, they can claim lower noise in the marketing effort, attributed to Digic5 and applicable to JPG only.

 

[mkln]

ATTENTION: I'm tired of reading through pages and pages of wish lists, "oh if it has better dynamic range and better high ISO performance I'm getting it." That's pretty much the stupidest and most obvious thing you could hope for in this camera (or any upcoming camera). Of course EVERYTHING that Canon is releasing is going to have better dynamic range and lower noise at high ISO, that's just a given and it's a waste of bandwidth to even mention inevitable upgrades such as these.

Like Canon is going to forget to improve the dynamic range and iso performance if you don't mention it here on the boards, they are a multi-billion dollar company people where is the trust? Some of you guys act like Canon is just a group of retards that don't know what they are doing, they don't need your advice.

I'm sorry but that is not true. Canon has not been a strong innovator in terms of DR.

Let's look at DR measure on DxO. I found DxO to be a close match with what I see in pics from my 5d2 and nex 5n.

2003 300D 10.8
2005 350D 10.8
2005 5D 11.1
2006 400D 11
2006 30D 10.8
2007 40D 11.3
2008 450D 10.8
2008 50D 11.4
2009 500D 11.5
2009 7D 11.7
2010 550D 11.5
2010 60D 11.5
2011 600D 11.5

This is for APS-C bodies. In 8 years a 0.7 improvement in DR. Not really that much huh?
Now a quick look at full frame

2003 1Ds 11
2005 1Ds2 11.3
2007 1Ds3 12
2008 5D2 11.9

basically a 1 stop improvement in 5 years.

and that is just not enough! There are cameras based on sony sensors out there with a 2-stop dynamic range advantage over the 5D2, and they are APS-C!

In strong contrast scenes my nex 5n (with a rated 12.7 stops of dynamic range, released 2011) is just better than the 5D2.

The 5D2 is nice becuase it is full frame, it's nice because of the added features from Magic Lantern, it's nice because it can produce really detailed pics. But its sensor is outdated and Canon does not seem to have a good track record on DR improvements.
I mean, I know that there's a high probability of the new 5D X of having more DR.
I just hope there is A LOT more. Other manufacturers have proven it's possible to have 14 stops of DR. I want Canon to at least match that.
So no, it's not a waste of bandwith.

And of course it'd be nice to have better AF, better iq at high iso, and so on. Everyone has different hopes about this. no discussion is meaningless.


( let me add APS-H data, which proves the same point )

2005 1D2n 11.2
2007 1D3 11.7
2009 1D4 12

 

[astrocrab]

Canon 5D Mark II has actually 5.x MP, because he has 21 Million bayer light sensors - 10.5 Million Greens and 5.x REDs and 5.x BLUE.

oh, i see now. =(
so, shall we ever see ideologically right foveon type sensor from canon?

 

[Axilrod]

Of course EVERYTHING that Canon is releasing is going to have better dynamic range and lower noise at high ISO, that's just a given and it's a waste of bandwidth to even mention inevitable upgrades such as these.

EVERYTHING? So...the T3i/600D has better DR and less ISO noise than the T2i/550D...or the 7D or 60D? Oh wait, they use the same sensor, so those parameters are essentially unchanged. If Canon uses the 5DII sensor in the 5DIII, then what? Oh, they can claim lower noise in the marketing effort, attributed to Digic5 and applicable to JPG only.

This thread is about the 5DIII, that's what I was talking about. The 5DII is almost 4 years old, it would be foolish of Canon not to improve the high ISO performance and dynamic range. It just seems like those changes are inevitable. There have been a flood of people on CR in the last week because of these posts, it's annoying going through pages and pages of nonsense.