5d Mark iii sync speed

[martins982]

I wonder if they will put a built in ND filter like they have done in the G1x camera It is probably alot cheaper for them to do that than to put a very expensive high performance shutter in to to increase sync speed

 

[Flake]

Amazing that no one has mentioned High Speed Sync! (HSS) where the camera will sync at more or less any speed you like! I've had the 5D MkII sync at 1/4000th. OK there are are downsides, like the lack of power, and the fact it makes the flash gun work hard, but it is a feature included just for this specific purpose, and you can always use multiple guns to up the power if you need.

Alternatively there's static light which needs either mains or a generator, but will overcome daylight. And as a slightly different approach, this is a problem associated with focal plane shutters, so get an adaptor and a lens with a leaf shutter, set the DSLR in bulb mode and then fire the leaf shutter which will sync at much faster speeds.

Or you use a tripod expose the sky, move the subject in, and expose for them & either do an HDR or cut & shut.

Sometimes a camera will just not be capable of doing what you want, and you have to be prepared to do a work around.

 

[Emeyerphoto]

Haven't heard any rumors, but the 1D X only manages 1/250 s, same as the 1DsIII. I think the 5DIII will stay at 1/200 s.

Strange the 1d4 is 1/300 - usefull for the 70-200 on a 1.3

I remember reading the higher flash sync is better achieved on the crop sensors

I don't believe this argument. If it was better achieved on the crop sensors, then why did the EOS 1, EOS 1n, and 1V all have 1/250 sync speed? If I am mistaken, I apologize but these are film cameras so the full frame versus crop sensor frame reasoning seems odd to me. If the argument of crop sensors only achieving this sync speed, then they would all have sync speeds of 1/200 or possibly less. Could you explain further why 1/250 worked on a film camera but only full frame digital cameras only allow 1/200?

 

[smirkypants]

zCould you explain further why 1/250 worked on a film camera but only full frame digital cameras only allow 1/200?

The sync speed is the fastest speed at which the entire sensor is exposed at once. At faster than max sync speed, only parts of the sensor are exposed at a time so if the flash fires (when it's not HSS) it gets only part of the image, and thus banding. There are two curtains that travel over the sensor that must traverse a larger distance on a full frame camera. Smaller travel distances = higher possible sync speeds.

It's as simple as that.

 

[Loswr]

I don't believe this argument. If it was better achieved on the crop sensors, then why did the EOS 1, EOS 1n, and 1V all have 1/250 sync speed? If I am mistaken, I apologize but these are film cameras so the full frame versus crop sensor frame reasoning seems odd to me. If the argument of crop sensors only achieving this sync speed, then they would all have sync speeds of 1/200 or possibly less. Could you explain further why 1/250 worked on a film camera but only full frame digital cameras only allow 1/200?

Not necessarily better achieved, but easier to achieve.

Two things determine the max sync speed - the size of the sensor and the design of the shutter. The smaller the sensor, the shorter the distance the curtains must move, and thus the faster they can cover that distance. That means higher sync speeds are easier to achieve with smaller sensors. But the design of the shutter matters, too - if the curtains can move faster (lighter curtains, stronger motors), a higher sync speed is possible. That's why the 1-series models (film and digital) have higher sync speeds - they have better (and of course, more expensive) shutter mechanisms. You can see the effect of the distance the curtains need to travel when you compare the 1DIV vs. the 1DsIII - both have the highest-end shutter motors and lightest curtains (titanium, I believe), but the FF 1DsIII has 1/250 s like the film cameras you mentioned, whereas the APS-H 1D IV has a 1/300 s sync speed.

The crop bodies don't have a higher sync speed because they are consumer/prosumer models and Canon doesn't choose to put their best shutter mechanisms in those cameras. But by extrapolation from the 1DsIII to 1D IV, if that same pro-level shutter mechanism was put in an APS-C body, you'd expect a sync speed of 1/350 s or a little faster.

 

[Flake]

Just to stir the mud a little more, the G12 will sync without using HSS at 1/4000th although for some odd reason not with the ST-E2 where it's a little slower. It's left me wondering the kind of shutter the G1X is going to have, focal plane as per the NEX or electronic like the G12.

 

[Loswr]

Just to stir the mud a little more, the G12 will sync without using HSS at 1/4000th although for some odd reason not with the ST-E2 where it's a little slower. It's left me wondering the kind of shutter the G1X is going to have, focal plane as per the NEX or electronic like the G12.

Does the G1X have a focal plane shutter? My guess based on the above is no - a 1/4000 sync speed means electronic 'curtains'.

 

[Viggo]

Just to stir the mud a little more, the G12 will sync without using HSS at 1/4000th although for some odd reason not with the ST-E2 where it's a little slower. It's left me wondering the kind of shutter the G1X is going to have, focal plane as per the NEX or electronic like the G12.

Does the G1X have a focal plane shutter? My guess based on the above is no - a 1/4000 sync speed means electronic 'curtains'.

I used to have a Sony compact that also synced at 1/1000s and froze action like nothing else. I understand how the shutter of an SLR works, but I have never thought of what the negative sides to an electronic "curtain" is? Can someone fill me in? Why doesn't the slr's use electronic "curtains"? You could still have the mirror and everything, right?

 

[7enderbender]

Just to stir the mud a little more, the G12 will sync without using HSS at 1/4000th although for some odd reason not with the ST-E2 where it's a little slower. It's left me wondering the kind of shutter the G1X is going to have, focal plane as per the NEX or electronic like the G12.

Does the G1X have a focal plane shutter? My guess based on the above is no - a 1/4000 sync speed means electronic 'curtains'.

I used to have a Sony compact that also synced at 1/1000s and froze action like nothing else. I understand how the shutter of an SLR works, but I have never thought of what the negative sides to an electronic "curtain" is? Can someone fill me in? Why doesn't the slr's use electronic "curtains"? You could still have the mirror and everything, right?

I'm sure others will provide more detail on this but I believe it has to do with the sensor type. The G12 has a CCD sensor while the Canon SLRs have CMOS sensors. From all I know there are pros and cons to both types but what you describe is one difference where it's easier to accomplish different behaviors in one way or another.

Leaf shutters like on medium format cameras would be another option to increase sync speed.

In any case, neither have anything to do with freezing action since you can do that even at slow shutter speeds. Things like high speed sync (or high shutter sync speeds) are more important to control ambient light.

 

[Viggo]

Just to stir the mud a little more, the G12 will sync without using HSS at 1/4000th although for some odd reason not with the ST-E2 where it's a little slower. It's left me wondering the kind of shutter the G1X is going to have, focal plane as per the NEX or electronic like the G12.

Does the G1X have a focal plane shutter? My guess based on the above is no - a 1/4000 sync speed means electronic 'curtains'.

I used to have a Sony compact that also synced at 1/1000s and froze action like nothing else. I understand how the shutter of an SLR works, but I have never thought of what the negative sides to an electronic "curtain" is? Can someone fill me in? Why doesn't the slr's use electronic "curtains"? You could still have the mirror and everything, right?

I'm sure others will provide more detail on this but I believe it has to do with the sensor type. The G12 has a CCD sensor while the Canon SLRs have CMOS sensors. From all I know there are pros and cons to both types but what you describe is one difference where it's easier to accomplish different behaviors in one way or another.

Leaf shutters like on medium format cameras would be another option to increase sync speed.

In any case, neither have anything to do with freezing action since you can do that even at slow shutter speeds. Things like high speed sync (or high shutter sync speeds) are more important to control ambient light.

Thanks, yeah, I was out with my son shooting wirless flash, and even in a normal minus daylight, I had the 580 on full power, and it wasn't exactly all I needed...

 

[Flake]

Just to stir the mud a little more, the G12 will sync without using HSS at 1/4000th although for some odd reason not with the ST-E2 where it's a little slower. It's left me wondering the kind of shutter the G1X is going to have, focal plane as per the NEX or electronic like the G12.

Does the G1X have a focal plane shutter? My guess based on the above is no - a 1/4000 sync speed means electronic 'curtains'.

I used to have a Sony compact that also synced at 1/1000s and froze action like nothing else. I understand how the shutter of an SLR works, but I have never thought of what the negative sides to an electronic "curtain" is? Can someone fill me in? Why doesn't the slr's use electronic "curtains"? You could still have the mirror and everything, right?

Lag is the reason for a focal plane shutter. Compact cameras continually read image data from the sensor when the shutter is pressed the sensor has to first be cleared, then allowed to expose for a set period before it's read & then wiped again, it all takes time, not a huge amount and compact cameras are much more responsive than they used to be, but still nothing like as fast as a DSLR.

Neuro I think you miss read my post, I can get the G12 to sync at 1/4000th I've no idea what the G1X will sync at just wondering as it has a much bigger sensor, and the NEX which is the nearest equivalent does use the focal plane shutter (and very noisy it is too!)

 

[Loswr]

@ Flake - I did, indeed, misread your post. Sorry! After I replied, I got to wondering if you meant with HSS?

The specs for the G1X say:

Fastest speed
- 1/2000 sec (built-in flash)
- 1/250 sec (external flash)
- 1/4000 sec (external using high-speed synchro)

 

[Flake]

Based on that it looks like a focal plane shutter, but the 1/2000th with the built in flash may indicate that it is capable of HSS but with limited power.

 

[Viggo]

Just to stir the mud a little more, the G12 will sync without using HSS at 1/4000th although for some odd reason not with the ST-E2 where it's a little slower. It's left me wondering the kind of shutter the G1X is going to have, focal plane as per the NEX or electronic like the G12.

Does the G1X have a focal plane shutter? My guess based on the above is no - a 1/4000 sync speed means electronic 'curtains'.

Thanks! That explains a lot!

I used to have a Sony compact that also synced at 1/1000s and froze action like nothing else. I understand how the shutter of an SLR works, but I have never thought of what the negative sides to an electronic "curtain" is? Can someone fill me in? Why doesn't the slr's use electronic "curtains"? You could still have the mirror and everything, right?

Lag is the reason for a focal plane shutter. Compact cameras continually read image data from the sensor when the shutter is pressed the sensor has to first be cleared, then allowed to expose for a set period before it's read & then wiped again, it all takes time, not a huge amount and compact cameras are much more responsive than they used to be, but still nothing like as fast as a DSLR.

Neuro I think you miss read my post, I can get the G12 to sync at 1/4000th I've no idea what the G1X will sync at just wondering as it has a much bigger sensor, and the NEX which is the nearest equivalent does use the focal plane shutter (and very noisy it is too!)

 

[Emeyerphoto]

With the D800 release will we now see 1/250 sync speed? This camera is full frame and hopefully this debunks the idea that you can't do 1/250 in a mid-upper level FF DSLR.

 

[Ryusui]

Who ever said you can't do it? As neuro said, Canon made the conscious decision not to include that speed on the 5D to differentiate it from the pro bodies.

 

[briansquibb]

With the D800 release will we now see 1/250 sync speed? This camera is full frame and hopefully this debunks the idea that you can't do 1/250 in a mid-upper level FF DSLR.

1D4 sync is 1/300 - so why not

 

[Positron]

Just to stir the mud a little more, the G12 will sync without using HSS at 1/4000th although for some odd reason not with the ST-E2 where it's a little slower. It's left me wondering the kind of shutter the G1X is going to have, focal plane as per the NEX or electronic like the G12.

Does the G1X have a focal plane shutter? My guess based on the above is no - a 1/4000 sync speed means electronic 'curtains'.

I used to have a Sony compact that also synced at 1/1000s and froze action like nothing else. I understand how the shutter of an SLR works, but I have never thought of what the negative sides to an electronic "curtain" is? Can someone fill me in? Why doesn't the slr's use electronic "curtains"? You could still have the mirror and everything, right?

I'm sure others will provide more detail on this but I believe it has to do with the sensor type. The G12 has a CCD sensor while the Canon SLRs have CMOS sensors. From all I know there are pros and cons to both types but what you describe is one difference where it's easier to accomplish different behaviors in one way or another.

Leaf shutters like on medium format cameras would be another option to increase sync speed.

In any case, neither have anything to do with freezing action since you can do that even at slow shutter speeds. Things like high speed sync (or high shutter sync speeds) are more important to control ambient light.

From what I understand, despite the myriad benefits of CMOS, one of their drawbacks compared to CCD is a more substantial internal capacitance that lets data "leak" into the pipeline after the sensor is turned off. This "leak" effect is not necessarily the same for all frequencies (colors of light), so there can be a color cast if using an electronic shutter with a CMOS sensor, which is why it's not done on DSLRs. A very frequent symptom of embedded systems implemented with CMOS ICs is a gradual, rather than instantaneous, turning off when the power switch is flipped (even if the switch is fully mechanical!), and if my interpretation is correct that lag in turning off is the reason that electronic shutters are a bad idea on CMOS sensors, which are in many other respects a better choice than CCDs for cameras.