5D4 @ 30 MP X 7 fps --> enough upside from the 5DS for you?

privatebydesign said:
I never understood why everybody clamours for AF linked spot metering. I found it to be of very limited value.

Candids

Rule of thirds small DOF work shooting against a bright background

Having a wife who only gives you 2-3 seconds to nail a shot on vacation

In short, it's great for shooting unscripted / fleeting moment situations with lighting conditions that are constantly changing -- vacations, street, candids, etc.

It's a niche thing, but it's gold for me and what I shoot.

- A
 
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Best example I have on hand, granted an extreme one. Moving in and out of radically different EV while Servo tracking. Imagine if this was one girl moving through all the spots. Or imagine if I wanted to snag one particular girl in this group who of off center frame. There is no time to meter her and then recompose the shot. This was a 1DX and 70-200 2.8 IS II. Spot metering that is moving with my 61 servo points would be enormously helpful
 

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ahsanford said:
privatebydesign said:
I never understood why everybody clamours for AF linked spot metering. I found it to be of very limited value.

Candids

Rule of thirds small DOF work shooting against a bright background

Having a wife who only gives you 2-3 seconds to nail a shot on vacation

In short, it's great for shooting unscripted / fleeting moment situations with lighting conditions that are constantly changing -- vacations, street, candids, etc.

It's a niche thing, but it's gold for me and what I shoot.

- A

Sorry, don't buy it. How much have you actually shot all those scenarios with AF point linked spot metering? I'd guess little or none.
 
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StudentOfLight said:
ahsanford said:
jdavis37 said:
But given I am a hobbyist who primarily shoots birds and critters, a larger buffer and higher frame rate is very important. When I bought my 5D3 I knew it was NOT a dedicated action camera, but found it to be a wonderful does everything well body that I have thoroughly enjoyed.

That said if the 5D4 had offered 10 fps (assuming the 30 MP sensor looks good) I would certainly buy it. As it stands now I am saving for the 1D-X2. I want faster frame rate and a bigger buffer. The 5D3 is an "almost 6 fps" camera in that as the batteries discharge frame rate drops, and fairly quickly. The 5D4 at 7 fps for me was a fatal.

Not criticizing, just analyzing as to how it pertains to me. Everyone will be uniquely different but for this buyer the frame rate was a fatal error. Had it been 9 fps I would have had to give it more thought. At 10 fps it would have stolen at least 1 DX-2 sale!

You are exactly the person I've been talking about for three pages on this thread. You are real, hooray! (Phew -- I'm not crazy.)

Thanks for the post.

- A
An earlier rumor hinted that the 5D-IV might shoot faster (9fps) in mirror-lock-up. If it has DPAF then it would have useful AF in such a mode so not all hope is lost.
...and with touchscreen auto focus it would be doing rather well indeed!

(Not getting my hopes up here however)
 
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rrcphoto said:
jdavis37 said:
That said if the 5D4 had offered 10 fps (assuming the 30 MP sensor looks good) I would certainly buy it.

that actually would have been pretty much impossible.

the 1DX Mark II doesn't even do that throughput with 3 DIGIC processors and a 30WH battery. (14x20=280MP/sec or 9 fps at 30MP)

now you have to fit all that into a smaller 5D camera body.
With mirror lock I think it shoots 16fps so its electronics can manage 16 x 20 = 320Mp/sec
 
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ahsanford said:
privatebydesign said:
Sorry, don't buy it. How much have you actually shot all those scenarios with AF point linked spot metering? I'd guess little or none.

Obviously, the answer is never. Canon doesn't give me this functionality with my 5D3.

- A

LOL! You gotta give ahsanford some points for that one. ;D Well played.
 
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PureClassA said:
ahsanford said:
privatebydesign said:
Sorry, don't buy it. How much have you actually shot all those scenarios with AF point linked spot metering? I'd guess little or none.

Obviously, the answer is never. Canon doesn't give me this functionality with my 5D3.

- A

LOL! You gotta give ahsanford some points for that one. ;D Well played.

But to answer PBD's question indirectly, the scenario comes up often in my manner of shooting, which is 95% unscripted handheld without a flash. I capture my life. That's what I do.

My life can't wait for the good light with landscapes -- I shoot when I have time to shoot. At my niece's alternatingly blinding/dark tae kwan do gymnasium, I have to pan as she's running through an absolute exposure nightmare behind her and I don't always want her in the middle of the frame. The moment my wife makes one of her signature absurd faces is often in front of a blown out background and I will not get a second chance to capture it.

So... no. Someone doing dedicated, scripted, deliberate and methodical work -- portraiture, macro, landscapes, etc. -- does not need this feature. But I do think I need it, and I'll continue to voice that need.

- A
 
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PureClassA said:
ahsanford said:
privatebydesign said:
Sorry, don't buy it. How much have you actually shot all those scenarios with AF point linked spot metering? I'd guess little or none.

Obviously, the answer is never. Canon doesn't give me this functionality with my 5D3.

- A

LOL! You gotta give ahsanford some points for that one. ;D Well played.

I do. Not because he points out Canon hasn't put a feature he considers "golden" in his model of camera, but for his honesty in admitting he has never actually used the feature he considers "golden".

As for your dance image, I contend AF linked spot metering would be ineffective in that scenario without constant heavy and accurate EV compensation. On the other hand if you just used Center Weighted Average you'd get a darn good exposure for all your dancers even though they have very different skin tones.

Here is your image with a heavy center weighted Gaussian Blur layer (in color then B&W). I think this illustrates that just because we consider this a difficult metering situation when you look at the scene as the camera metering would it really isn't that tough. These are very close to what the meter 'sees' in the Center Weighted Average mode, the RGB values are 119-99-159, 18% grey in sRGB is 119-119-119.

Of course Canon believe that Evaluative metering is smart enough to work out what your subject is, it's workings are proprietary but we do know distance information is passed to the camera so it could be considered an intelligent linked AF point weighted metering mode. Obviously the 'problem' with Evaluative metering is it is proprietary and we need to learn what to expect from it, and it had changed as the cameras have got smarter.

Don't forget one severe limitation with AF point linked spot metering that those who haven't used it forget when they site heavy backlight situations and difficult exposure scenarios, you are limited to +/-3 stops of EV, tricky lighting, especially backlighting, often needs more than that.

Another is the supposed 2.5% area of the spot, how close is that to covering your subject? How much backlight or dark is impacting the meter reading? It is difficult to calculate your needed EV when you can't be sure how much of that metering spot is on what part of the scene.

Personally in 'difficult' lighting situations I have always considered M mode with Evaluative metering the best of the bunch, even after using AF point linked Spot meteringTo illustrate I am not just talking the talk here I include four images I consider tough from a metering point of view that I found AF point Spot metering really didn't help with, it just got in the way. M mode and Evaluative metering worked very well and left me to do my thing. I know #4 has camera shake but it was a 300mm f2.8 at 1/80sec handheld on a 1D, so give me a break. :)

So #3 and #4, black singer with a black mic wearing black with a black background, and rapidly changing lighting. #5 and #6, black singer wearing very white suit with rapidly changing light.

I hope this post helps people think a little more about metering, it is not intended to be a bitch slap or putdown of anybody, just an honest exchange of thoughts about a feature few seem to have used but many seem to crave.
 

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Here is an example of three images one after the other with AF point linked Spot metering enabled, the exposure is all over the place! As was he! :D
 

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Not enough upside for me. I have a 5D3, 5DSr, and 7D2. If they include the features of the 5DSr and add a few new ones like a shutter at the eyepiece as on the old FD FN1 series, and a tiltable LCD screen like on the Pentax K1 I may reconsider. A switchable AA filter would help too. If it has a greatly increased dynamic range and greatly decreased noise at high ISO, I will consider ordering a 5D4. Otherwise I skip this new 5D for the first time since the series started.
 
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privatebydesign said:
PureClassA said:
ahsanford said:
privatebydesign said:
Sorry, don't buy it. How much have you actually shot all those scenarios with AF point linked spot metering? I'd guess little or none.

Obviously, the answer is never. Canon doesn't give me this functionality with my 5D3.

- A

LOL! You gotta give ahsanford some points for that one. ;D Well played.

I do. Not because he points out Canon hasn't put a feature he considers "golden" in his model of camera, but for his honesty in admitting he has never actually used the feature he considers "golden".

As for your dance image, I contend AF linked spot metering would be ineffective in that scenario without constant heavy and accurate EV compensation. On the other hand if you just used Center Weighted Average you'd get a darn good exposure for all your dancers even though they have very different skin tones.

Here is your image with a heavy center weighted Gaussian Blur layer (in color then B&W). I think this illustrates that just because we consider this a difficult metering situation when you look at the scene as the camera metering would it really isn't that tough. These are very close to what the meter 'sees' in the Center Weighted Average mode, the RGB values are 119-99-159, 18% grey in sRGB is 119-119-119.

Of course Canon believe that Evaluative metering is smart enough to work out what your subject is, it's workings are proprietary but we do know distance information is passed to the camera so it could be considered an intelligent linked AF point weighted metering mode. Obviously the 'problem' with Evaluative metering is it is proprietary and we need to learn what to expect from it, and it had changed as the cameras have got smarter.

Don't forget one severe limitation with AF point linked spot metering that those who haven't used it forget when they site heavy backlight situations and difficult exposure scenarios, you are limited to +/-3 stops of EV, tricky lighting, especially backlighting, often needs more than that.

Another is the supposed 2.5% area of the spot, how close is that to covering your subject? How much backlight or dark is impacting the meter reading? It is difficult to calculate your needed EV when you can't be sure how much of that metering spot is on what part of the scene.

Personally in 'difficult' lighting situations I have always considered M mode with Evaluative metering the best of the bunch, even after using AF point linked Spot meteringTo illustrate I am not just talking the talk here I include four images I consider tough from a metering point of view that I found AF point Spot metering really didn't help with, it just got in the way. M mode and Evaluative metering worked very well and left me to do my thing. I know #4 has camera shake but it was a 300mm f2.8 at 1/80sec handheld on a 1D, so give me a break. :)

So #3 and #4, black singer with a black mic wearing black with a black background, and rapidly changing lighting. #5 and #6, black singer wearing very white suit with rapidly changing light.

I hope this post helps people think a little more about metering, it is not intended to be a bitch slap or putdown of anybody, just an honest exchange of thoughts about a feature few seem to have used but many seem to crave.

I have only one problem with all this! I need to learn a whole lot in short order and PBD doesn't accompany me on my nature hikes. I think that anyone who is very talented and has become expert at what they do will have work-arounds for difficult situations. It's an altogether different story when you're a beginner struggling to get better and not getting any younger and then throw in perfectionism to boot and it can get pretty frustrating. To quote our local sports sage, "I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin"

When I was shooting my vertical shots of the Pileated woodpecker, all black with a red/white head using the upper focus point my 6D metered off the body. So, AF point linked metering would have helped hopeless old me in that case. I can barely think fast enough to switch a focus point let alone do all the other fancy pro tricks like PBD! ;)

So, Scott, you are here-by invited to Alberta to teach an old dog new tricks. Then we'll see what your work-around is for an old dog. You'd probably end up just saying, "put the camera on auto". :)

Jack
 
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privatebydesign said:
I do. Not because he points out Canon hasn't put a feature he considers "golden" in his model of camera, but for his honesty in admitting he has never actually used the feature he considers "golden".

...

I hope this post helps people think a little more about metering, it is not intended to be a bitch slap or putdown of anybody, just an honest exchange of thoughts about a feature few seem to have used but many seem to crave.

A+. Love the insight and examples. I can only speculate how that feature performs, and you've gone and shown me. I did not presume it would solve all my problems, and I'm not surprised your mileage may vary with it. I was not expecting a panacea.

That said, I still would like to have this feature and learn & fail with it on my own. A $3000+ rig should have this feature, IMHO.

- A
 
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Jack, Id meter the tree below the bird and use that exposure value in manual.


StudentOfLight said:
Does the AF-linked spot-metering circle move on the 1DX and 1DX-II or do you use a 9-pt cluster to guestimate the size of the area being metered?

No the circle doesn't move you have to guestimate where it is. On the older 45 point AF based systems you can link it to 19 of the 45 points.
 
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Canon could have easily kept it 6 FPS and some would accept that based off the increase in MP. Or given a token upgrade of 6.5fps.

I'm happy with 7. 7FPS is the right thing to do. 8 would have been fantastic and perhaps the stand-out big feature of the 5D4. Instead, touch screen, dual pixel and other stuff will be the main attractions.

If the 5D4 has a better silent shutter than before, that will be very welcome too. And a worthy reason to not have 8fps if it's a matter of deciding between the two. Those who don't value a silent shutter haven't been in enough situations where it does come into play. The D810 has a very quiet shutter and that is important to many. I suspect Canon will answer this in the 5D4.


Do notice though...

5D3 = 6fps, 1DX = 12fps
5D4 = 7fps, 1DX2 = 14fps

5 series is 50% the speed of the 1 series.


Another reason 7fps was predicted.
 
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PBD, an easy solution if I can only keep my wits about me. You know I get so excited when the great shot seems to be within reach! :( I can see the advantages to shooting in manual but I also see some serious challenges for the person who is just learning. However, every bit of advice is taken to heart!

Jack
 
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Jack Douglas said:
PBD, an easy solution if I can only keep my wits about me. You know I get so excited when the great shot seems to be within reach! :( I can see the advantages to shooting in manual but I also see some serious challenges for the person who is just learning. However, every bit of advice is taken to heart!

Jack

Jack I mentor for my local camera club which is something I really enjoy.

In my experience people try too many different things and read too much advice/opinions on how to do stuff. i always suggest choose a Mode for both exposure and metering and work with that one setup for a while. If you stick to one method you will learn when that method fails, it then isn't difficult to work out why and apply any corrections to your methodology or choose another Mode that will work better for that situation, but be methodical and don't be afraid to fail. ;)

Oh, and practice, even now I shoot many pictures every week that are just tests, either lights or lenses or modifiers. Just last night I was shooting nightscapes with the 15 fisheye, TS-E17 and 11-24 purely to compare the looks and exposure requirements 'just in case'. The day before I realized I could mount my EOS-M with 22mm f2 to my 1DS MkIII hotshoe and if I used the 35 f2 I could get close to equivalence. I love that M with the 22mm but the aging 1DS and 35 f2 blow it away for character and mood.

P.S. In short, shoot the tree before the woodpecker gets there! Indeed shoot everywhere you often see wildlife and get a feel for what works and what doesn't before 'the shot' comes along. Then when it does come around you don't have so much stuff to worry about.
 
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