5D4 Sensor Defect Discovered

[Orangutan]

Orangutan,

you are looking at 8bit image that contains 256 gradations of colours only. see what happens if you export the the same PSD file as 16-bit TIFF file instead.

It shows nearly the same on PS in the 16-bit original. I had intended to mention it in the post, but forgot. If you're skeptical I suggest you try to reproduce it yourself.

 

[Sporgon]

Anyone have thoughts on this?

My thought is that this is an improvement on lens cap analysis

 

[Orangutan]

Anyone have thoughts on this?

My thought is that this is an improvement on lens cap analysis

Slightly less of a waste of time?

Edit: The point is not to support those claiming defect, but to illustrate that even a "perfect sensor" would show banding after exposure/shadow lift.

 

[Sporgon]

Anyone have thoughts on this?

My thought is that this is an improvement on lens cap analysis

Slightly less of a waste of time?

 

[Alex_M]

nope, hence my P.S. re on screen image. yes, it sounds like it could be _part_ of the issue. in addition to in camera image banding. if true, than it explains why when processed in DXO Optics Pro images can be pushed a bit harder until banding become apparent comparing to LR. Good thinking.. well done, Sir!

Orangutan,

you are looking at 8bit image that contains 256 gradations of colours only. see what happens if you export the the same PSD file as 16-bit TIFF file instead.

It shows nearly the same on PS in the 16-bit original. I had intended to mention it in the post, but forgot. If you're skeptical I suggest you try to reproduce it yourself.

 

[Orangutan]

nope, hence my P.S. re on screen image. yes, it sounds like it could be _part_ of the issue. in addition to in camera image banding. if true, than it explains why when processed in DXO Optics Pro images can be pushed a bit harder until banding become apparent than LR. Good thinking.. well done, Sir!

Orangutan,

you are looking at 8bit image that contains 256 gradations of colours only. see what happens if you export the the same PSD file as 16-bit TIFF file instead.

It shows nearly the same on PS in the 16-bit original. I had intended to mention it in the post, but forgot. If you're skeptical I suggest you try to reproduce it yourself.

I just repeated it on mine: it's more pronounced in JPEG (to be expected), but it's definitely there in the original PS image before export, even when I zoom in a lot. Remember that the point of this is not to replicate the 5D4 purported phenomena, but to illustrate how digital exposure/shadow lift can affect even a "perfect" original image.

 

[Alex_M]

it demonstrates that _potentially_ Adobe gradient rendering can cause an _additional_ image degradation. not confirmed at this stage.

nope, hence my P.S. re on screen image. yes, it sounds like it could be _part_ of the issue. in addition to in camera image banding. if true, than it explains why when processed in DXO Optics Pro images can be pushed a bit harder until banding become apparent than LR. Good thinking.. well done, Sir!

Orangutan,

you are looking at 8bit image that contains 256 gradations of colours only. see what happens if you export the the same PSD file as 16-bit TIFF file instead.

It shows nearly the same on PS in the 16-bit original. I had intended to mention it in the post, but forgot. If you're skeptical I suggest you try to reproduce it yourself.

I just repeated it on mine: it's more pronounced in JPEG (to be expected), but it's definitely there in the original PS image before export, even when I zoom in a lot. Remember that the point of this is not to replicate the 5D4 purported phenomena, but to illustrate how digital exposure/shadow lift can affect even a "perfect" original image.

 

[Orangutan]

it demonstrates that _potentially_ Adobe gradient rendering can cause an _additional_ image degradation. not confirmed at this stage.

I think that strains logic: gradient rendering is simple process. Also you can try it on other graphic software products to confirm. Banding in shadow areas is a reality of digital exposure/shadow lift.

To my mind, the digital artifact hypothesis is the best supported by good evidence, though it's still possible there is some inherent, subtle banding from the original image. To determine that, it would be necessary to do a very carefully controlled studio test.

 

[Memdroid]

So I finally crumbled and did a quick test on my 1DX II, 5D mark IV and 5DSR. They all show streaking pushed 6 stops... I conclude this is normal behavior and I will never ever shoot like this and never ever did.
I guess people want to see a problem by creating a problem.

 

[JukkaS]

So I finally crumbled and did a quick test on my 1DX II, 5D mark IV and 5DSR. They all show streaking pushed 6 stops... I conclude this is normal behavior and I will never ever shoot like this and never ever did.
I guess people want to see a problem by creating a problem.

To me 5DSR and 1DX2 looks more natural. From 5D4 tou can see the problem starting from the left part pf the frame. This is very valuable comparison, I wish you would have left more space for shadows on the right hand side and bright screen 1/3 of the left part. The biggest worry (at least on my part) has been this "smearing/blooming" or whatever we should call it, which makes the brightness to reflect to the shadows from the bright area.

 

[unfocused]

So I finally crumbled and did a quick test on my 1DX II, 5D mark IV and 5DSR. They all show streaking pushed 6 stops... I conclude this is normal behavior and I will never ever shoot like this and never ever did.
I guess people want to see a problem by creating a problem.

My hat is off to you. You are obviously more patient than I am. It would be nice if your post would finally put this issue and thread to rest. Yet, somehow I doubt that will happen.

 

[tron]

First, many thanks Memdroid for doing the test.

6 stops were never the question.

Everone mentioned 3 stops and one 1.5 stop and suddenly all say 5 stops as a clisse (this comment is not meant for Memdroid).

There are cases where anything slightly over 3 stops underexposure (not 6 or almost absolute darkness) would show the problem. Even the push of 1.5 to 2 stops in the case of sky.

Also think about Alan's 5D4.

 

[colorblinded]

Even with this issue, are we still seeing better recovery capabilities than the 5D3? If so, by how much? Or is the answer "it depends" and is it sometimes worse?

 

[JukkaS]

Even with this issue, are we still seeing better recovery capabilities than the 5D3? If so, by how much? Or is the answer "it depends" and is it sometimes worse?

It depends like mentioned many times. The problem is that when 5D4 reaches the limits you get the stripes instead of only normal noice (like 6D used to do in my case). Noice can be handled to certain extent, but the stripes always makes the frame unusable. In most cases that limit is not reached, but for instance the case of Timo V:s night sky & shopping mall shows it can occur with very slight pushes. In those cases 5D4 is not actually better than 5D3 or 6D IMHO.

 

[colorblinded]

Even with this issue, are we still seeing better recovery capabilities than the 5D3? If so, by how much? Or is the answer "it depends" and is it sometimes worse?

It depends like mentioned many times. The problem is that when 5D4 reaches the limits you get the stripes instead of only normal noice (like 6D used to do in my case). Noice can be handled to certain extent, but the stripes always makes the frame unusable. In most cases that limit is not reached, but for instance the case of Timo V:s night sky & shopping mall shows it can occur with very slight pushes. In those cases 5D4 is not actually better than 5D3 or 6D IMHO.

Hmm, that's what I was afraid of. I appreciate the effort everyone is going through to characterize the performance of the camera. This directly impacts some of the type of work I was hoping the 5D4 would be of benefit for so I am a tad concerned

I'd still love to try the camera out, but I'm becoming doubtful if it's the replacement for my 5D3 I was hoping for.

 

[JukkaS]

Even with this issue, are we still seeing better recovery capabilities than the 5D3? If so, by how much? Or is the answer "it depends" and is it sometimes worse?

It depends like mentioned many times. The problem is that when 5D4 reaches the limits you get the stripes instead of only normal noice (like 6D used to do in my case). Noice can be handled to certain extent, but the stripes always makes the frame unusable. In most cases that limit is not reached, but for instance the case of Timo V:s night sky & shopping mall shows it can occur with very slight pushes. In those cases 5D4 is not actually better than 5D3 or 6D IMHO.

Hmm, that's what I was afraid of. I appreciate the effort everyone is going through to characterize the performance of the camera. This directly impacts some of the type of work I was hoping the 5D4 would be of benefit for so I am a tad concerned

I'd still love to try the camera out, but I'm becoming doubtful if it's the replacement for my 5D3 I was hoping for.

It is a great camera, no question and many improvements. But if you are specialized in for instance shopping malls in dark conditions - maby then your doubt easily justified.

 

[colorblinded]

Even with this issue, are we still seeing better recovery capabilities than the 5D3? If so, by how much? Or is the answer "it depends" and is it sometimes worse?

It depends like mentioned many times. The problem is that when 5D4 reaches the limits you get the stripes instead of only normal noice (like 6D used to do in my case). Noice can be handled to certain extent, but the stripes always makes the frame unusable. In most cases that limit is not reached, but for instance the case of Timo V:s night sky & shopping mall shows it can occur with very slight pushes. In those cases 5D4 is not actually better than 5D3 or 6D IMHO.

Hmm, that's what I was afraid of. I appreciate the effort everyone is going through to characterize the performance of the camera. This directly impacts some of the type of work I was hoping the 5D4 would be of benefit for so I am a tad concerned

I'd still love to try the camera out, but I'm becoming doubtful if it's the replacement for my 5D3 I was hoping for.

It is a great camera, no question and many improvements. But if you are specialized in for instance shopping malls in dark conditions - maby then your doubt easily justified.

I'm not in the habit of photographing deliberately difficult scenes, but that's the hard thing about trying to figure it out without trying one. I will probably just rent one sooner or later.

 

[wockawocka]

Hello.

What does a 100 increase in shadows equate to in Exposure push terms.

Just that 2 + 100 could equal +6 EV

 

[Sporgon]

Hello.

What does a 100 increase in shadows equate to in Exposure push terms.

Just that 2 + 100 could equal +6 EV

I don't think it is always a linear response, depends on the image, but generally I'd say that after pushing mid tones 2 stops pushing shadows "100%" on top of this would be about 4 stops.

 

[ZachOly]

I just tested the "lens cap" shots from @PixelTrawler

The difference between FW 1.01 and 1.02 shows a massive improvement in streaking. FW 1.02 is producing random noise like you'd expect to see after a push.