80d vs. 7D MKII

tlieser said:
I was caught between 80D and 7DMk2.

To me it looks like the 80D has no real/great advantage in image quality (DR at low ISO and higher resolution) compared to the 7DMk2.

What made me buy the 7DMk2 was the usability. With the 7DMk2 I can use manual mode with Auto ISO and exposure compensation all controlled with one hand without taking the camera off the eye. The ergonomics are simply better.

The same is true for the build quality -- the 80D feels "plastic", I wouldn't want to be out there shooting a Rugby game in the rain with this one.

Depends on your application.... e.g. I have been trying to get my girls to shoot more often and the touch screen on the 80D, got them very excited, they were fighting to take turns... this has never happened with the HS500, the 5d3 or the a6000. That alone was a deal sealer for me. I am very happy with the 80D purchase, I am not missing the 5d3 much.
 
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tron

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bluemoon said:
try this:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=canon_eos7dii&attr13_1=canon_eos80d&attr13_2=canon_eos6d&attr13_3=canon_eos1dxii&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=1600&attr16_1=1600&attr16_2=1600&attr16_3=1600&attr126_2=highres&normalization=full&widget=1&x=-0.007324776064271861&y=0.11706430075214996

to me, 7Dmk2 all the way, even at low ISO. It might have better ability to push DR, but when nailed right, 7Dmk2 certainly seems to look cleaner.
Ultimately, investing in a full frame would make more difference between any two APS-C sensors.

pierre
The important thing for the case of APS-C against FF is not when we can get closer with FF and frame the image as we wish. It goes without saying that in these cases FF wins easily.

The issue is when we cannot walk closer and have a specific lens (so we are Focal Length limited).

Since I do have the 7D2 can you please elaborate "when nailed right, 7Dmk2 certainly seems to look cleaner"?

Do you refer to focus (which is a "must" of course) or to proper lighting? When the subject is well - lit for example quality is very good. When there are shadows not so much.
 
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Sporgon

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bluemoon said:

These patches don't always give the true, practical picture. Try reducing the 80D to 20 MP and it improves somewhat.
 
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Bdunbar79 wrote: “But so what? More DR at low ISO doesn't give you better IQ. It only does if you push shadows. That’s it.”.
As I wrote in my start of this thread: that is exactly what I need and what I am looking for.  :)

All replies pointing out that there is more to the 7D Mark II than the DR of its sensor, make a valid point (of course :) ). Johnf3f wrote: “I think that Alan F is getting at the point that good/excellent AF is a/the major priority for the likes of birds etc. … Naturally image quality is very important but the best sensor in the world won't get to a decent bird shot if the AF isn't up to the job”.
You are very right: an out-of-focus image from a sensor with a DR of 20 stops is of no use. Clearly.
But it is not that I do not get enough in-focus shots. This means that although I would not mind having all great features of the 7D Mark II 8) , I can do without them. Together with the fact that I can afford to occasionally miss a shot, I do not have to improve my number of keepers. To be honest, the main reason for the out-of-focus shots that I do have, is usually that I did not recognize a changing situation in the environment that impacted my AF-settings (like lighting, relative speed, size of the plane, color or tone of the plane, changing background, etc.).


As I wrote before, when shooting airplanes you cannot control the lighting - or even come back later (like with architecture and landscape). You have to take what you get.
So when the sky is not evenly clouded, the harsh sunlight in combination with the geometry of airplanes will result in quite some underexposure of the underside of the fuselage and wings.
In such circumstances the raw photos will have deep shadows. It is clear that in such circumstances it is paramountto to set exposure with post-processing in mind. This requires knowing your equipment. That has all been pointed out, and rightfully so. But still, the deep shades are what you inevitably get and must be dealt with in post-processing.

Noise as a result of pushing the shades ‘too much’ in post-processing is quickly visible on smooth metal surfaces – like wings or other surfaces of an aircraft!
So I conclude that for my type of photography, avoiding noise in shades is critical. This means that a bit more latitude as a result of a bigger DR of the sensor, would allow for a better result in post-processing.

Hence my need for a sensor with better DR. I can be more specific after giving it some more thought based on several replies above: I need better DR in particular from 400 to 800 ISO.

The things I have read about the DR of the 7D Mark II are sometimes very good and at other times not that good. However, not one of them is clearly less true. There is simply too much variation from poster to poster and from website to website to be undisputed enough to base my judgement on. The 80D seems to have a sensor with better DR – although there also is some variance in the amount by which it is better.

To finish, in another thread I have read that the 7D Mark III (three) might come sooner than the normal cycle would suggest because of competition from both the 80D and the likes of the Nikon D500 (although the latter is much more expensive, so I am not sure if that is really fair to say).
At first I thought it could be wise to wait for that new 7D Mark III, hoping I might get both the better DR of the newer generation of sensors Canon appears to produce now, and the better AF-system, ergonomics and ‘action photography features’.
But that I will not do. Because no doubt the camera after that will be even better… and so on.

So the 80D it will be!

Thanks for all replies and useful information. It helped me get a clearer picture  ;) of my own needs
 
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haggie said:
Hence my need for a sensor with better DR. I can be more specific after giving it some more thought based on several replies above: I need better DR in particular from 400 to 800 ISO.

Just to put some data out there, I'm attaching the DXO comparison (I know, I know...) between the 7D Mk II and the Nikon D7200, generally regarded as the best APS-C sensor since God gave the Exmor to Moses, possibly excepting the new D500. At ISO 400-800, the difference in DR is essentially 1 stop. The 80D hasn't been tested by DXO yet, but its DR will not be more than the D7200, so at most 1 stop better than the 7D Mk II at the ISOs you care about. Does that one stop matter? That's entirely up to you to decide, but it's good to have a quantitative benchmark.

Here's the link for the comparison: http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D7200-versus-Canon-EOS-7D-Mark-II___1020_977
 

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haggie said:
There is simply too much variation from poster to poster and from website to website to be undisputed enough to base my judgement on. The 80D seems to have a sensor with better DR – although there also is some variance in the amount by which it is better.

To which the obvious conclusion is: if there is so much dispute the differences are so small as to be irrelevant. Check that one off your list and make a decision based on other factors.
 
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AlanF

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soldrinero said:
haggie said:
Hence my need for a sensor with better DR. I can be more specific after giving it some more thought based on several replies above: I need better DR in particular from 400 to 800 ISO.

Just to put some data out there, I'm attaching the DXO comparison (I know, I know...) between the 7D Mk II and the Nikon D7200, generally regarded as the best APS-C sensor since God gave the Exmor to Moses, possibly excepting the new D500. At ISO 400-800, the difference in DR is essentially 1 stop. The 80D hasn't been tested by DXO yet, but its DR will not be more than the D7200, so at most 1 stop better than the 7D Mk II at the ISOs you care about. Does that one stop matter? That's entirely up to you to decide, but it's good to have a quantitative benchmark.

Here's the link for the comparison: http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D7200-versus-Canon-EOS-7D-Mark-II___1020_977

The data have been out there for some time now on Bill Claff's site. There is nothing between the 80D and 7DII in dynamic range above iso 318.

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm
 
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Yep as stated above I found quickly, the real benefits for the 80D are at 100 ISO. After that, nada really, even at 200 there isnt much in it.

Soon as Im doing wildlife or anything where high shutter speed/AF speed/af options/fps becomes important, I use my 7D2 - the additive effect is pretty big for me even if any single thing isnt so big. An aircraft is a pretty different thing to say, a swallow when it comes to missed shots so it really depends on your intended subject how much that extra speed matters.

I agree that the more contradiction you see the more likely theres nothing really in it - but also very few people are silly as me to buy both given the closeness in spec to really experience the difference so there is a signal to noise issue clouding things as well. Both are fine cameras, but there are enough niggles I dont see them as entirely equivalent. I expected to sell my 7D2 and instead have kept it and for wildlife thats my goto. Anything more carry around/people the 80D.

Otara
 
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haggie said:
As I wrote before, when shooting airplanes you cannot control the lighting - or even come back later (like with architecture and landscape). You have to take what you get.
So when the sky is not evenly clouded, the harsh sunlight in combination with the geometry of airplanes will result in quite some underexposure of the underside of the fuselage and wings.
In such circumstances the raw photos will have deep shadows. It is clear that in such circumstances it is paramountto to set exposure with post-processing in mind. This requires knowing your equipment. That has all been pointed out, and rightfully so. But still, the deep shades are what you inevitably get and must be dealt with in post-processing.

I am FAR from an expert on Aviation photography! However I don't seem to have much of a problem with exposing for the underside of aircraft with either my 7D2 or 1DX. I use Manual + Auto ISO and both of these cameras allow exposure compensation within Manual mode with Auto ISO. The bottom line is that you can easily get the exposure you want (or very close to it) without even taking your eye from the viewfinder. My exposure compensation is activated by the SET button and adjusted by the Main Dial. So on a slow pass (eg a Lancaster) it is quite easy to get 4-6 different exposure levels without moving off the subject, chimp while it is turning and have the right exposure on the return run.
After a little practice, you can forget about the chimping and just dial in roughly what you need without thinking or looking away from the viewfinder. This makes sure that you get every possible chance to get the best exposure and minimises post processing.
This very first time I tried this function I was able to get 4 different exposure levels in a single circuit of a Buzzard in a thermal - that's just not going to happen with an 80D.

You may not consider this important, having used it on a variety of subjects (especially birds in flight) I consider it to be a top priority.

Only you can decide which is the better camera for you, try both before you spend your pennies!
 
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tron

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johnf3f said:
haggie said:
As I wrote before, when shooting airplanes you cannot control the lighting - or even come back later (like with architecture and landscape). You have to take what you get.
So when the sky is not evenly clouded, the harsh sunlight in combination with the geometry of airplanes will result in quite some underexposure of the underside of the fuselage and wings.
In such circumstances the raw photos will have deep shadows. It is clear that in such circumstances it is paramountto to set exposure with post-processing in mind. This requires knowing your equipment. That has all been pointed out, and rightfully so. But still, the deep shades are what you inevitably get and must be dealt with in post-processing.

I am FAR from an expert on Aviation photography! However I don't seem to have much of a problem with exposing for the underside of aircraft with either my 7D2 or 1DX. I use Manual + Auto ISO and both of these cameras allow exposure compensation within Manual mode with Auto ISO. The bottom line is that you can easily get the exposure you want (or very close to it) without even taking your eye from the viewfinder. My exposure compensation is activated by the SET button and adjusted by the Main Dial. So on a slow pass (eg a Lancaster) it is quite easy to get 4-6 different exposure levels without moving off the subject, chimp while it is turning and have the right exposure on the return run.
After a little practice, you can forget about the chimping and just dial in roughly what you need without thinking or looking away from the viewfinder. This makes sure that you get every possible chance to get the best exposure and minimises post processing.
This very first time I tried this function I was able to get 4 different exposure levels in a single circuit of a Buzzard in a thermal - that's just not going to happen with an 80D.

You may not consider this important, having used it on a variety of subjects (especially birds in flight) I consider it to be a top priority.

Only you can decide which is the better camera for you, try both before you spend your pennies!
Thanks for the tip with SET button (I had set it to change ISO but didn't use it frequently). I was putting the camera in Av mode, then changing EC and putting it again in M mode. Not a great deal since I always favored +1/3 or +2/3 but there are these cases where you have to change it quickly when birds fly against the sun. Also there were 2 cases I had forgotten to switch back to manual!

Birders though suggest to use completely manual exposure to avoid all these. And we can always use Auto Bracketing with high speed continuous shooting (which I tend to forget it exists).
 
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The problem with Av/Tv is the varying background as a bird/plane fly past agsint sjy, then trees, then hills etc.

This is where manual comes in.
Have you tried the 'sunny f16' rule? A trick from the days of film - if you have the aperture set to f16, then on a bright cloudless day the shutter speed is 1/ISO.
So at ISO 400 you have f16 with 1/400 sec
Or ISO 400 with f8 and 1/1600 sec
etc

This means that as the bird/plane flies across the landscape it will be 'averagely' exposed no matter what the background.
If you know the subject is particularly reflective (a wet waterbird or silver jet) you can set faster shutter speed (maybe ISO400, f8, 1/8000 sec).
 
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Otara said:
Just checked and can do the same on the 80d, changing the set button to hold down for exposure combination while using the top dial. The screen goes blank but in the viewfinder it works fine.

Very handy tip for either, thanks for that.

I didn't know that, I live and learn. :)

It is a great feature which I use a lot and it's good to hear that Canon have incorporated it on the 80D.

To the OP: I got that one wrong so please ignore. However whichever camera you decide on it will prove very useful.
 
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pj1974 said:
Just adding my 2 cents worth. Not just in this thread (and indeed in many other threads and photo forums), I see time and time again, people exaggerating small differences as if they were ‘poor’ vs ‘excellent’.

While there are differences in AF and sensor between 7D2 and 80D, the absolute differences are not as night and day as many people make them out to be. Compared to digital images possible a mere 15 years ago, we are truly spoiled.

Both cameras have very capable AF, with the 7D2 slightly better for challenging birds in flight. The 80D is probably 90% as capable.
Both cameras have awesome sensors, with the 80D slightly better for low ISO image post processing. The 7D2 is about 90% as capable.

For a balanced opinion, there are many other features that should be considered depending on the potential user’s photographic style and needs (ergonomics, connectivity, cost, build quality, etc).

And even more important than the rather minute differences between AF and sensor capability, is the photographer’s skill level, and willingness to practice and improve.

Regards, everyone

Paul 8)

+1 Both the 7d2 and 80D are great bodies. If you have a hard time choosing between one or the other... wait for the 7d3 :-D
 
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In reply to what Mikehit wrote about a trick (I call it experience 8) ) from the film days, I want to add a bit of a nuance.

I use a rule like the one Mikehit mentions too. And in my experience that works well - but only when the sun is (almost) right behind you. And with photographing birds you can usually find a good position where sun and wind allow you to get the right circumstances.

However, when photographing airplanes you have only limited choice where to position yourself. The runway (and flight area) is pretty fixed ....... :)
Then when the sun is not more or less directly behind you, photographing a pass of an airplane requires additional compensation for the exposure to be as accurate as possible to give an optimum starting point for post-processing. Then the method as described earlier by johnf3f is the best solution, I expect. I never tried it, but it sounds so 'natural' that I expect far better results than what I used to do myself in that lighting situation.
 
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Sporgon said:
bluemoon said:

These patches don't always give the true, practical picture. Try reducing the 80D to 20 MP and it improves somewhat.

Interesting! I thought they were so close in size and did not bother to adjust. Once I did that, the difference is much smaller even though 7Dmk2 still holds a very slight edge.

pierre

EDIT: sorry, I checked it under normal light. Once changed to low light the difference is still significant.
 
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tron said:
bluemoon said:
try this:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=canon_eos7dii&attr13_1=canon_eos80d&attr13_2=canon_eos6d&attr13_3=canon_eos1dxii&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=1600&attr16_1=1600&attr16_2=1600&attr16_3=1600&attr126_2=highres&normalization=full&widget=1&x=-0.007324776064271861&y=0.11706430075214996

to me, 7Dmk2 all the way, even at low ISO. It might have better ability to push DR, but when nailed right, 7Dmk2 certainly seems to look cleaner.
Ultimately, investing in a full frame would make more difference between any two APS-C sensors.

pierre
The important thing for the case of APS-C against FF is not when we can get closer with FF and frame the image as we wish. It goes without saying that in these cases FF wins easily.

The issue is when we cannot walk closer and have a specific lens (so we are Focal Length limited).

Since I do have the 7D2 can you please elaborate "when nailed right, 7Dmk2 certainly seems to look cleaner"?

Do you refer to focus (which is a "must" of course) or to proper lighting? When the subject is well - lit for example quality is very good. When there are shadows not so much.

sorry, I should have mentioned that the comparison tool is showing the noise rather than DR ability.
As far as looking cleaner, to me the image from the 7Dmk2 seems to be about half a stop, or just slightly more, cleaner than the 80D. Considering that the birding is often in sub optimal light conditions, a sensor that works better in low light would be my preference. Make sure you select low light when comparing the images as the difference is more pronounced that way.

pierre
 
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May 11, 2016
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Thanks, bluemoon and tron.
So for noise in the photo itself, the 80D is a bit better than the 7D Mk II.

But added noise in the shades in particular, as a resulted of post-processing will be quite a bit more for the 7D Mark II than the 80D. Because there seems to be agreement about of the better dynamic range of the 80D's sensor. The amount in which the 80D's sensor is better is not so clear: I read between 1 to almost 2 stops better.

So that means that the 80D is better from the sole viewpoint of dynamic range needed to push the shades in my photos of flying birds and planes in harsh sunlight.
 
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