Analysis of RAW samples at Fred Miranda show weak DR

[dak723]

Well, I for one wouldn't care one iota if the DR is not improved. Granted, I am not the typical CR member, but the original 6D had more than enough DR for all my shots (And, yes, I shoot mainly Landscape). When I bought the Sony A7 II to replace my 6D because of all the sensor hype, I found no difference in my images with all the "extra" DR. So, the Sony was returned (for that and may other reasons. Personally, I find that in post-processing - after doing some shadow lifting (never a problem with my 6D or my new M5), that I then need to increase contrast in the majority of my images. (In effect, lowering DR).

I remember a few years ago on DPReview they were comparing a new Olympus camera to the older model. It's great, they said, that the new camera has improvements in DR, but it's too bad the images have seem to lost some of the "punch" they used to have. Duh, more DR, less contrast, less punch.

Yes, I understand that there are times when you want more DR, but, so far, haven't found them yet in my own shooting. (Yes, landscapes...)

 

[Loswr]

In case somebody was considering Nikon D750 as an alternative:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/5252259585/nikon-expands-d750-shutter-recall-yet-again-more-cameras-affected

I feel honestly sorry for Nikon. They need to get up on their feet again, I don't want them consumed by e.g. Sony Imaging. The more brands, the better competition...

But it has two card slots, so even if your shutter fails, you still have two card slots. That helps, right?

I wonder if China will ban sale of the D750, like they did for the D600?

 

[LonelyBoy]

In case somebody was considering Nikon D750 as an alternative:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/5252259585/nikon-expands-d750-shutter-recall-yet-again-more-cameras-affected

I feel honestly sorry for Nikon. They need to get up on their feet again, I don't want them consumed by e.g. Sony Imaging. The more brands, the better competition...

I know the feeling. It's looking likely that cameras (and maybe imaging in general) will go the way of CPUs: Chipzilla and Mini-Me. And Mini-Me is sickly.

 

[bclaff]

I have just one question.

Do the people who are doing these "tests" actually have a camera in their possession?

At PhotonsToPhotos I rarely have possession of the cameras I test.
It's unnecessary if I have the appropriate raw files to analyze.
In the case of Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) for the Canon EOS 6D Mark II I don't have my usual test files (although I'm working through proper channels to get them) but the files I have are sufficient to make a very good estimate.

 

[Don Haines]

Maybe I didnt understand this well. Rumor is that 6DII will not use the 5DIV/1DxII generation technology, nor 7DII techonology, not even 5Ds generation technology, but something that FULL-FRAME version of 750D/T6i would leave in the dust. That is the rumor, right?

That's not even "rumor". That's conjecture, based on a leaked image of unknown provenance. It doesn't deserve a tenth of the attention it's gotten (let alone how much is still coming before release), but because it gave the DRones more to drone on about after they thought they'd lost, it's been blown completely out of proportion.

If (if) Canon releases the 6D2 with an old-tech sensor, I'll be throwing the words "nerfed" and "crippled" around here mercilessly. It would be utterly inexcusable.

If it happens, rather than throw around recent words like nerfed, why not use ones that were in use when the sensor was designed.... for verily, it hath been wounded, smitten, forsaken.....

 

[Khalai]

In case somebody was considering Nikon D750 as an alternative:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/5252259585/nikon-expands-d750-shutter-recall-yet-again-more-cameras-affected

I feel honestly sorry for Nikon. They need to get up on their feet again, I don't want them consumed by e.g. Sony Imaging. The more brands, the better competition...

I know the feeling. It's looking likely that cameras (and maybe imaging in general) will go the way of CPUs: Chipzilla and Mini-Me. And Mini-Me is sickly.

Monopoly is never good for customers. Intel vs AMD, Nvidia vs AMD etc. (except that AMD did really well with Ryzen for a change, but Vega looks like major flop, too little and too late). There are no real competition and thus prices are ramping up...

Canon is a major player with almost half of the ILC market. But they mustn't abuse their position if we want some innovation and reasonable prices all across the market.

 

[ahsanford]

Maybe I didnt understand this well. Rumor is that 6DII will not use the 5DIV/1DxII generation technology, nor 7DII techonology, not even 5Ds generation technology, but something that FULL-FRAME version of 750D/T6i would leave in the dust. That is the rumor, right?

That's not even "rumor". That's conjecture, based on a leaked image of unknown provenance. It doesn't deserve a tenth of the attention it's gotten (let alone how much is still coming before release), but because it gave the DRones more to drone on about after they thought they'd lost, it's been blown completely out of proportion.

If (if) Canon releases the 6D2 with an old-tech sensor, I'll be throwing the words "nerfed" and "crippled" around here mercilessly. It would be utterly inexcusable.

If it happens, rather than throw around recent words like nerfed, why not use ones that were in use when the sensor was designed.... for verily, it hath been wounded, smitten, forsaken.....

ye olde english snap

- A

 

[Khalai]

Maybe I didnt understand this well. Rumor is that 6DII will not use the 5DIV/1DxII generation technology, nor 7DII techonology, not even 5Ds generation technology, but something that FULL-FRAME version of 750D/T6i would leave in the dust. That is the rumor, right?

That's not even "rumor". That's conjecture, based on a leaked image of unknown provenance. It doesn't deserve a tenth of the attention it's gotten (let alone how much is still coming before release), but because it gave the DRones more to drone on about after they thought they'd lost, it's been blown completely out of proportion.

If (if) Canon releases the 6D2 with an old-tech sensor, I'll be throwing the words "nerfed" and "crippled" around here mercilessly. It would be utterly inexcusable.

If it happens, rather than throw around recent words like nerfed, why not use ones that were in use when the sensor was designed.... for verily, it hath been wounded, smitten, forsaken.....

Thou shalt not overexposeth by more than three ceases, unless thou wanteth ugly and venemous hurtling present.

 

[LonelyBoy]

In case somebody was considering Nikon D750 as an alternative:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/5252259585/nikon-expands-d750-shutter-recall-yet-again-more-cameras-affected

I feel honestly sorry for Nikon. They need to get up on their feet again, I don't want them consumed by e.g. Sony Imaging. The more brands, the better competition...

I know the feeling. It's looking likely that cameras (and maybe imaging in general) will go the way of CPUs: Chipzilla and Mini-Me. And Mini-Me is sickly.

Monopoly is never good for customers. Intel vs AMD, Nvidia vs AMD etc. (except that AMD did really well with Ryzen for a change, but Vega looks like major flop, too little and too late). There are no real competition and thus prices are ramping up...

Canon is a major player with almost half of the ILC market. But they mustn't abuse their position if we want some innovation and reasonable prices all across the market.

I agree; I've said before my wife worked for AMD. And there was the Athlon way back before Ryzen. And yes, prices are ramping up and it's not good. And yes, I have to believe that will happen as Canon continues its rampage. Get yours while the getting's good...

 

[LonelyBoy]

Maybe I didnt understand this well. Rumor is that 6DII will not use the 5DIV/1DxII generation technology, nor 7DII techonology, not even 5Ds generation technology, but something that FULL-FRAME version of 750D/T6i would leave in the dust. That is the rumor, right?

That's not even "rumor". That's conjecture, based on a leaked image of unknown provenance. It doesn't deserve a tenth of the attention it's gotten (let alone how much is still coming before release), but because it gave the DRones more to drone on about after they thought they'd lost, it's been blown completely out of proportion.

If (if) Canon releases the 6D2 with an old-tech sensor, I'll be throwing the words "nerfed" and "crippled" around here mercilessly. It would be utterly inexcusable.

If it happens, rather than throw around recent words like nerfed, why not use ones that were in use when the sensor was designed.... for verily, it hath been wounded, smitten, forsaken.....

Nerf was invented in 1969. That not old enough for ya?

 

[CanonCams]

In case somebody was considering Nikon D750 as an alternative:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/5252259585/nikon-expands-d750-shutter-recall-yet-again-more-cameras-affected

I feel honestly sorry for Nikon. They need to get up on their feet again, I don't want them consumed by e.g. Sony Imaging. The more brands, the better competition...

But it has two card slots, so even if your shutter fails, you still have two card slots. That helps, right?

I wonder if China will ban sale of the D750, like they did for the D600?

Y did they ban it?

 

[bclaff]

Can you please provide a link for that? This is the first time I've read such information and I'd like to know more.

DxO allows you to compare up to three cameras at a time.

FWIW, PhotonsToPhotos allows you to compare up to ten cameras at a time.

Here is a link that compares the pixel-level dynamic range (DR) of the 20D, 5DII and 5DIII.
https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III-versus-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-II-versus-Canon-EOS-20D___795_483_281

The DxOMark Landscape Score is not pixel-level but normalized.

Here is the summary:

• 20D, a 1.6x crop camera from 2005: 10.95 EV of DR
• 5DII, a FF camera from 2008: 10.95 EV of DR
• 5DIII, a FF camera from 2012: 11.16 EV of DR

That is, a 2005 crop camera (the 20D) has essentially the same DR as a 2012 FF camera (at the pixel level).

Btw, let me correct my initial statement:
It's the same signature 11-stop pixel-level DR, not 12-stop.

As a Canon fanboy, I was subconsciously giving Canon too much credit 8).

DxOMark Landscape Score or PhotonsToPhotos Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) are not the best indication as to whether the Analog to Digital Converters (ADCs) or on-chip or not.
The shape of the curve is a better indicator.
Note the attached chart, the on-chip ADC camera has a straighter line (which does naturally rise higher at low ISO settings).

 

[Luds34]

Can you please provide a link for that? This is the first time I've read such information and I'd like to know more.

DxO allows you to compare up to three cameras at a time.

Here is a link that compares the pixel-level dynamic range (DR) of the 20D, 5DII and 5DIII.
https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III-versus-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-II-versus-Canon-EOS-20D___795_483_281

Here is the summary:

• 20D, a 1.6x crop camera from 2005: 10.95 EV of DR
• 5DII, a FF camera from 2008: 10.95 EV of DR
• 5DIII, a FF camera from 2012: 11.16 EV of DR

I clicked on your link and saw (Landscape, DR) these numbers:

• 20D, a 1.6x crop camera from 2005: 11 EV of DR
• 5DII, a FF camera from 2008: 11.9 EV of DR
• 5DIII, a FF camera from 2012: 11.7 EV of DR

So there looks like there was an improvement from the 20D. Interesting the 5D2 was slightly higher than the 5D3. And those cameras are/were approaching 12 stops. So maybe your initial thoughts of 12 and not 11 were correct.

 

[ahsanford]

Here is a link that compares the pixel-level dynamic range (DR) of the 20D, 5DII and 5DIII.
https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III-versus-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-II-versus-Canon-EOS-20D___795_483_281

The DxOMark Landscape Score is not pixel-level but normalized.

Correct. The Landscape score is normalized to (I think?) 8 MP, but you can actually plot things out at the pixel level using that 'Screen vs. Print' button.

1) Go to x-vision's link above
2) Click on measurements
3) Click on dynamic range -- this defaults to 'Print', the 8 MB downsample we know of as the Landscape score
4) Click on 'Screen' to go to a pixel-level take,

...and you get to x-vision's point: this uber pixel-peepingish metric is not one Canon has made immense strides in over time, at least prior to the on-chip products of late, and therefore it is impossible to take good pictures with non on-chip cameras. QED. Infinity. No backsies.

- A

 

[Loswr]

In case somebody was considering Nikon D750 as an alternative:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/5252259585/nikon-expands-d750-shutter-recall-yet-again-more-cameras-affected

I feel honestly sorry for Nikon. They need to get up on their feet again, I don't want them consumed by e.g. Sony Imaging. The more brands, the better competition...

But it has two card slots, so even if your shutter fails, you still have two card slots. That helps, right?

I wonder if China will ban sale of the D750, like they did for the D600?

Y did they ban it?

I heard it was because of poor low ISO DR.

 

[bclaff]

Here is a link that compares the pixel-level dynamic range (DR) of the 20D, 5DII and 5DIII.
https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III-versus-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-II-versus-Canon-EOS-20D___795_483_281

The DxOMark Landscape Score is not pixel-level but normalized.

Correct. The Landscape score is normalized to (I think?) 8 MP, but you can actually plot things out at the pixel level using that 'Screen vs. Print' button.

...

Sure, looking at pixel-level dynamic range, Engineering Dynamic Range (EDR) is equivalent to looking at Read Noise in Digital Numbers (DNs, also known as Analog to Digital Units (ADUs) ).
DxOMark doesn't show that but PhotonsToPhotos does,
Note (again) that when looking at the curve the on-chip ADC sensor is a straighter line and less of a "hockey stick".

 

[Khalai]

Sure, looking at pixel-level dynamic range, Engineering Dynamic Range (EDR) is equivalent to looking at Read Noise in Digital Numbers (DNs, also known as Analog to Digital Units (ADUs) ).
DxOMark doesn't show that but PhotonsToPhotos does,
Note (again) that when looking at the curve the on-chip ADC sensor is a straighter line and less of a "hockey stick".

It just doesn't make sense that 6D II would be even worse than 5D III. This doesn't add up...

 

[x-vision]

...and you get to x-vision's point: this uber pixel-peepingish metric is not one Canon has made immense strides in over time, at least prior to the on-chip products of late, and therefore it is impossible to take good pictures with non on-chip cameras. QED. Infinity. No backsies.

Actually, my point was that the production 6DII won't have better DR than what we've seen from the pre-production images.

But I get your point too .

Let me just say that before I saw the RAWs, I was already selling unused gear on eBay to fund a 6DII.
But DR is very dear to me (hehe) and that's why I'm not buying for now.
Still, I think that the 6DII is a fantastic offering from Canon.

 

[CanonCams]

In case somebody was considering Nikon D750 as an alternative:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/5252259585/nikon-expands-d750-shutter-recall-yet-again-more-cameras-affected

I feel honestly sorry for Nikon. They need to get up on their feet again, I don't want them consumed by e.g. Sony Imaging. The more brands, the better competition...

But it has two card slots, so even if your shutter fails, you still have two card slots. That helps, right?

I wonder if China will ban sale of the D750, like they did for the D600?

Y did they ban it?

I heard it was because of poor low ISO DR.

Well, I guess if China pre bans the pre orders we know why.

;D

 

[stevelee]

Well, I for one wouldn't care one iota if the DR is not improved. Granted, I am not the typical CR member, but the original 6D had more than enough DR for all my shots (And, yes, I shoot mainly Landscape). When I bought the Sony A7 II to replace my 6D because of all the sensor hype, I found no difference in my images with all the "extra" DR. So, the Sony was returned (for that and may other reasons. Personally, I find that in post-processing - after doing some shadow lifting (never a problem with my 6D or my new M5), that I then need to increase contrast in the majority of my images. (In effect, lowering DR).

I remember a few years ago on DPReview they were comparing a new Olympus camera to the older model. It's great, they said, that the new camera has improvements in DR, but it's too bad the images have seem to lost some of the "punch" they used to have. Duh, more DR, less contrast, less punch.

Yes, I understand that there are times when you want more DR, but, so far, haven't found them yet in my own shooting. (Yes, landscapes...)

Both in the Garden of the Gods and in Arches National Park I found myself shooting backlit formations near sunset, and I wanted to preserve the clouds and get some detail in the formations. That kind of circumstance is about the only time I feel a need for more DR in landscapes. Even so, I found that the Highlights slider in ACR could recover almost enough sky detail, and the shadows slider could pick up some detail in the rocks. I was shooting RAW shots with my G7X II, so maybe not the kind of DR you'd expect from some hotshot DSLR. For a little punch, I add Clarity and maybe even pull the Contrast down a bit. In some cases, I still pulled in some sky from a bracketed shot. In retrospect, I find the picture below a little too HDRish, and like the ACR-processed single shot a little better. If I started over now, I'd probably do a better job, since I've had more practice with such things.