Analysis of RAW samples at Fred Miranda show weak DR

Aglet said:
This is gonna be a useful camera to many people but it's going to be a major letdown for anyone who was expecting a better camera.

Exactly, and you pissing on it without ever seeing one is not constructive and doesn't help them.

As for anybody expecting a better camera, one, they probably shouldn't be looking at an entry level FF Canon camera, and two, they have lots of 'better' choices both new and used, as well as refurbished, from several manufacturers.
 
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SecureGSM said:
In my opinion, according to the histogram to the right of the image, my estimation is that mid greys are under exposed by -2EV. (note: I cannot see the histogram readings clearly due to the small size of the image). If so, I do not consider this being a minor mistake let alone being a norm or something that I would even consider "fixing" in post. if happened (flash misfired, bulb gone, full eclipse or black magic :) ), such an image would be culled immediately - no exceptions.

yes, it was a flash error and it is underexposed by about 2 stops but you can't cull the shot when the client wants THAT shot.
I could have told them, "Gee. I'm sorry you like that shot but you can't have it because an exposure error has rendered it kind of useless because, blah blah blah."
Good luck with that. :)

and OMG! 2 WHOLE STOPS UNDEREXPOSED!! Stop the planet!
Any decent camera, read anything other than that major steaming hot pile known as the 5d2, could easily recover from that.
my 40D could easily recover from that!
The 5D2's recovery had visible banding in the dark areas after the lift. That's why it's a steaming hot... well, now it's a cold pile cuz there's a new steaming hot pile being presented by the beancounters from Canon.

This is a 6d2 thread
And the point is even that one of Canon's own CROP bodies will outperform the new 6d2!


Any ABC camera will eat the 6d2 for breakfast when it comes to IQ.
A 20MP MFT cameras will spank it at low ISO and keep up to it at the higher end and all with higher overall performance on top of it. (well, maybe not low light AF..)

it won't be a useless camera by any means. great WB and metering will save the day for most shots but this is not a camera that's going to satisfy anyone looking for a more malleable raw file now that the expectations have been set by a few other bodies in Canon's lineup, never mind ABC...
This is just barely a FF Rebel... from a few years ago.
 
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Aglet said:
privatebydesign said:
Dude I don't care what you say, I think you'll find your posts are being deleted because you are not allowed to use people's names if they don't use them themselves, it is written in the TOU.

Count yourself lucky just getting deleted, I got a ban when I unwittingly did it.

Crikey! Is that all it takes?!?
I've seen people can post stuff on here's that's grounds for a fist-fight (nor referring to you here in this case, merely a minor annoyance :) ) .. and it stays but addressing someone by name is a major no-no?...
Things must have been amended since I first signed up.
But they still haven't improved protocol where it would be most helpful. ???

Yep.

You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy,

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?action=register

Posting somebodies name is considered harassing and an invasion of a person's privacy. Like I said, count yourself lucky, when I did it I got a ban and was told if I did it again it would be permenant.
 
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privatebydesign said:
Exactly, and you pissing on it without ever seeing one is not constructive and doesn't help them.

I completely disagree with that line.

People spending this kind of money on a camera should know exactly what it'll be capable of.

Back when I bought into Canon I was reasonably satisfied with the results from the crop bodies I'd purchased and I wanted a full frame but one with more performance than the original 5d.

When the 5d2 came out everything I read was so positive I was convinced it was going to deliver what I wanted for landscape and more.
NOPE!
After shooting with it for a couple months I was completely disappointed with it.
Too late to return it.
Stuck it in a drawer and hoped for a firmware fix... none ever fixed that FPN issue.

THEN i started to find a few negative reviews citing the same issues I was experiencing.
If I had that negative info before I bought it I would NOT have bought it


NEGATIVE OPINION INFORMATION IS USEFUL INFORMATION.


it's often more useful than all the glowing positive reviews delivered by those who don't push any technical boundaries!

So, in your parlance, I WILL pee all over this thing. :) If it saves some people the kind of grief I had.
Altho this is a fraction of a stop better in PDR, and maybe even a full stop + better in shadow recovery, it's still quite limited in its ability to manipulate the files coming out of it in comparison to Canon's better sensor tech and ABC products.
Yes, people DO have other options and they should consider them KNOWING the 6D2 will have more limitations than they may otherwise expect.

Just my public service announcement. :)
 
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privatebydesign said:
Posting somebodies name is considered harassing and an invasion of a person's privacy. Like I said, count yourself lucky, when I did it I got a ban and was told if I did it again it would be permenant.

Well, then. I thank you for bringing that information to my attention, PBD.
You have your annoying moments in discussions at times but you also have quite a helpful side too,.. Dude. :)
 
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Aglet said:
privatebydesign said:
Exactly, and you pissing on it without ever seeing one is not constructive and doesn't help them.

I completely disagree with that line.

People spending this kind of money on a camera should know exactly what it'll be capable of.

Back when I bought into Canon I was reasonably satisfied with the results from the crop bodies I'd purchased and I wanted a full frame but one with more performance than the original 5d.

When the 5d2 came out everything I read was so positive I was convinced it was going to deliver what I wanted for landscape and more.
NOPE!
After shooting with it for a couple months I was completely disappointed with it.
Too late to return it.
Stuck it in a drawer and hoped for a firmware fix... none ever fixed that FPN issue.

THEN i started to find a few negative reviews citing the same issues I was experiencing.
If I had that negative info before I bought it I would NOT have bought it


NEGATIVE OPINION INFORMATION IS USEFUL INFORMATION.


it's often more useful than all the glowing positive reviews delivered by those who don't push any technical boundaries!

So, in your parlance, I WILL pee all over this thing. :) If it saves some people the kind of grief I had.
Altho this is a fraction of a stop better in PDR, and maybe even a full stop + better in shadow recovery, it's still quite limited in its ability to manipulate the files coming out of it in comparison to Canon's better sensor tech and ABC products.
Yes, people DO have other options and they should consider them KNOWING the 6D2 will have more limitations than they may otherwise expect.

Just my public service announcement. :)

Yes and the reason I reposted the subject of one of your old diatribes was to put your opinion in perspective.

You are incapable of exposing optimally so your opinion on matters relating to exposure and shadow lifting are irrelevant to pretty much anybody.

Very few people are "limited" by the IQ from the 6D, so why would anybody worry about the IQ from the MkII? Sure some people would have liked 'more', however Canon thinks people are more interested in flippy screens and AF, and history has shown them to be right more often than not.

I am sure the camera will get roasted by testers and reviewers desperate for a site hit and sales link and forum experts with over sized opinions on cameras they have never touched, I am equally sure the people who buy one will love it and get great results from it.
 
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Aglet said:

NEGATIVE OPINION INFORMATION IS USEFUL INFORMATION.

I agree. But negative opinion based on information of unknown provenance is mere tittle-tattle.

I repeat what I said before, only 2 months ago, people were saying 'the 6D is a great camera except for....'. Canon have fixed those 'except for' and now it is a massive disappointment because rumour says they did not give it another 2 stops dynamic range. That line of logic is quite frankly pathetic.

One reason I much prefer the 7D2 over the 7D is not so much the improvement of DR but the way the noise is rendered and for me this improves its usable ISO by 1.5-2 stops.
So instead of going into meltdown because of a few numbers try doing the mature thing and waiting until someone does real-world tests.
 
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"You are incapable of exposing optimally so your opinion on matters relating to exposure and shadow lifting are irrelevant to pretty much anybody."

Thats a bit like saying anyones opinion on the benefits of AF are useless if they cant manually focus properly. What used to need more skill can now often be done far more easily, and generally thats a good thing.

And knowing that another sensor is far more exposure tolerant is pretty useful info for a lot of people. The problem is general is the hyperbole that goes both ways 'you cant expose properly' 'this sensor is poop' etc etc.
 
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privatebydesign said:
Yes and the reason I reposted the subject of one of your old diatribes was to put your opinion in perspective.

except it's completey out of context, rendering it rather useless to your purpose
I used about 80 DSLR and ML camera bodies + many fixed-lens types in the last 15+ years, about half of them Canon.
I shot with all of them, and the only ones I've ever complained about were the 5d2 and 7d for their excessive pattern noise.

You are incapable of exposing optimally so your opinion on matters relating to exposure and shadow lifting are irrelevant to pretty much anybody.

HAHA! OK, We're back to the annoying part.
How can you possibly be taken seriously here with this kind of exaggeration?
I presented that particular example of an underexposed image to demonstrate the 5d2's file quality was too low to even be able to recover from a mere 2 stop push.
And you try to extrapolate that to me being {i}incapable[/i] of exposing correctly?!?
And you further try to extend that to my opinion then not being valid.
Jeez that's a stretch!
Seriously! Dude! If there's anything you're exposing here it's not my competence with a camera.... ::) :)


Very few people are "limited" by the IQ from the 6D, so why would anybody worry about the IQ from the MkII?

That's good.. Because Canon finally addressed the horrendous problem they had with Fixed Pattern Noise in the 5d2 and original 7d and others.
Dynamic range was not the issue then so much as the gross FPN problem which could even show up in midtones, which is where I first found it on the 5d2.

The 6D has a smidgen more DR but it has a useful reduction in FPN. Not eliminated, but improved considerably. That gives its files greater DR and more malleability w-o falling apart with serious visible noise as quickly.
If the 6d2 continues with low FPN that's OK but because it appears to have lower PDR compared to the 6D it takes a bit of a setback again when people go to play with a raw file. You start to run into the good old Canon shadow noise problem which then requires some extra work in post to correct.
Not everyone wants to be fixing technical problems in post.
It's better to start with a better file unless you're happy with OOC jpg or its near equivalent rendering.


Sure some people would have liked 'more', however Canon thinks people are more interested in flippy screens and AF, and history has shown them to be right more often than not.

They probably are gonna sell a shipload of them and make a pile of profit doing it.
Doesn't mean they should not be taken to task by a little bit of a boycott for hobbling a product at that price level.
Don't buy it til they drop to price to about $1500... maybe they'll learn a lesson as that's about all it's really worth. (in Cnd $ yet! LOL)


I am sure the camera will get roasted by testers and reviewers..equally sure the people who buy one will love it and get great results from it.

both of those are likely true.
But anyone buying it and hoping to push it beyond the built in jpeg engine should be prepared for a little disappointment considering pretty much every other shipping camera with MFT or larger sensor is likely going to outperform it for IQ and editability.

I'm not even saying it's a BAD camera.
I'm merely saying it's looking like it's not nearly as good as it could have been and that prospective buyers who intend to do more with the output than accept it as-is should seriously consider the alternatives. In fact Canon has the alternatives for those want to shoot better raw files and stay in the company camp... You either pay more for the 5d4 or pay LESS and use the 80D and skip this FF farkle trap until they step up the sensor tech across the whole lineup.
 
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martinslade said:
CanonCams said:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4182741

Someone got a delivery already.

Looks impressive at ISO 12800 - could this be its forte..?

Sorry.. just realised DPP applies NR - this has it off

He even uploaded some RAW files, so if this is legit retail kit, anybody can easily download files and check the quality for themselves. From the thread, it looks like that 6D II appears to be high ISO killer. Too bad, if that DR deficiency proves to be correct however...
 
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Mikehit said:
One reason I much prefer the 7D2 over the 7D is not so much the improvement of DR but the way the noise is rendered and for me this improves its usable ISO by 1.5-2 stops.
So instead of going into meltdown because of a few numbers try doing the mature thing and waiting until someone does real-world tests.

Well then you've experienced the same noise issues I found intolerable for such expensive gear.
And yes, it's been improved substantially in a few products by going to on-chip ADC and the other products to a lesser extent by more careful design.

There's no meltdown... Just expressions of disappointment and cautionary words to prospective purchasers.
It will be shipping shortly and we'll be inundated with dozens of glowing positive reports which will also be deserved but people need to not lose track that this is likely one of the last of Canon's low-tech imaging systems they're buying into for a fairly moderate cost which is a bit of a bummer considering that the 80D is cheaper and can deliver a little better in some key areas.

IMO, Canon chose one too many tradeoffs on the 6d2 for the sake of profit.
A better compromise, IMO, would have been on-chip ADC at 12 bits... Clean files, more speed, differentiation from higher priced and higher performance models and still good raw file malleability.
 
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martinslade said:
CanonCams said:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4182741

Someone got a delivery already.

Looks impressive at ISO 12800 - could this be its forte..?

Sorry.. just realised DPP applies NR - this has it off

I'd like to see it compared to an Olympus EM1 mk 2
... you know, just to put it in perspective with a 2-stop smaller sensor's performance. ;D
 
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Khalai said:
martinslade said:
CanonCams said:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4182741

Someone got a delivery already.

Looks impressive at ISO 12800 - could this be its forte..?

Sorry.. just realised DPP applies NR - this has it off

He even uploaded some RAW files, so if this is legit retail kit, anybody can easily download files and check the quality for themselves. From the thread, it looks like that 6D II appears to be high ISO killer. Too bad, if that DR deficiency proves to be correct however...

Looks legit... I had to update DPP before it would read CR2 and EXIF/meta looks ok
 
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Khalai said:
martinslade said:
CanonCams said:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4182741

Someone got a delivery already.

Looks impressive at ISO 12800 - could this be its forte..?

Sorry.. just realised DPP applies NR - this has it off

He even uploaded some RAW files, so if this is legit retail kit, anybody can easily download files and check the quality for themselves. From the thread, it looks like that 6D II appears to be high ISO killer. Too bad, if that DR deficiency proves to be correct however...

quite doubt it's a hi ISO killer
likely works about as well as any other typical contemporary FF sensor above 1600 iso which is pretty good.
 
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Aglet said:
Khalai said:
martinslade said:
CanonCams said:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4182741

Someone got a delivery already.

Looks impressive at ISO 12800 - could this be its forte..?

Sorry.. just realised DPP applies NR - this has it off

He even uploaded some RAW files, so if this is legit retail kit, anybody can easily download files and check the quality for themselves. From the thread, it looks like that 6D II appears to be high ISO killer. Too bad, if that DR deficiency proves to be correct however...

quite doubt it's a hi ISO killer
likely works about as well as any other typical contemporary FF sensor above 1600 iso which is pretty good.

You need to cheer up man, you're being excruciatingly negativistic in latest posts :D
 
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Having just watched the Camera Store video in the link above – and taking into account early image analysis from other sources – it now seems unfortunately clear that the 6D mark II will not likely continue Canon’s recent trend of improved base ISO processing latitude. In fact the “shadow lifted” images shown during the video bear a familiar resemblance to the files from my old 6D that I’ve just recently traded for a 5D Mark IV.

And while I’m not a shadow lifting fanatic – in fact quite the opposite - the “freedom” afforded by having the kind of RAW file malleability afforded by the 5D4 and other recent Canon bodies at your disposal with fewer IQ penalties than previous gen bodies is quite phenomenal.

And while the 6D update has been quite comprehensive it seems pretty unbelievable to me that improved DR wouldn’t have been a priority for this highly anticipated model. I’d go so far as to say that the market would have tolerated a justifiable bump in cost for a commensurate bump in this one metric that Canon has been so universally criticized for until recently. Sure there would have been much “Canon hate” if it launched at a higher price, but launch prices come down and price trolling would have been much easier to fend off than the perception that this camera – at launch - doesn’t perform to the same standard as it’s – considerably older - market competitors. Like it or not... DR performance has become a key aspect of camera reviews and discussion and whether or not people truly need it (or even fully understand why, when & where they might find it useful in the first place) they will know that other cameras do it better.

And since Canon themselves have tacitly recognized and addressed this within their own range I worry that unless production models miraculously display some hitherto unseen capability the 6D 2 may well end up being considered the model that was left out when just about every other Canon body got to go to the party. A pity, because it will no doubt be a great camera, capable of producing many great images in the hands of capable photographers. It could just have been an opportunity to put this “issue” to bed once and for all and make the average “already bought in” Canon APS-C punters first full frame purchase truly aspirational as opposed to making it feel like a weird “downgrade” from recent top tier APS-C models like the 80D
 
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My clients do not get to see or choose from images I am not completly/reasonably happy with . It is about photographer's reputation as well. on the second count: 2 stops of underexposure is hardly a norm for my style of shooting. If happened, it always makes me stop and analyse the situation. Thank you for wishing me good luck though. How very nice of you.

Aglet said:
yes, it was a flash error and it is underexposed by about 2 stops but you can't cull the shot when the client wants THAT shot.
I could have told them, "Gee. I'm sorry you like that shot but you can't have it because an exposure error has rendered it kind of useless because, blah blah blah."
Good luck with that. :)

and OMG! 2 WHOLE STOPS UNDEREXPOSED!! Stop the planet!
 
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I just downloaded this image, backlit scene and edited it in Lightroom.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fd1i3ddjtaawqdm/IMG_3835%2035mm%20f6.3%20ISO%20200%20-%20Blown%20hilights%2C%20deep%20shadows%20%28LR%29.jpg?dl=0

Looks pretty good to me I would have no issue with this at all. Noise is nice, latitude is also pretty good.

No banding or colour noise issues, colour looks great and nice and sharp!

Makes my 5DMKIII IQ look pretty crap in comparison. Hate the colour noise at every ISO when doing any kind of recovery.

I think it will be a great little camera and people need to chill out, its not going to be the difference between getting an image and not. Even with 12 stops of DR you cant control everything in the scene so a 3 shot bracket will remove any issue and at 6.5 FPS you could hand hold a burst.

Looking forward to the reviews, apart from the lack of 4K I think the reviews will be overall positive. Its not a 5D MK IV killer and was never meant to be its nearly half the price, there has to be a trade off and these are the facts. For most serious photographers who earn money from their work 2K is a small price to pay. £13.80 per week over the 3 year life span of the investment.

In my mind the only reason to get a 5DMKIII over this is if it is super cheap which they aren't, but may come down in the next couple of months. 6D MKII Retail of £2k and second hand high mileage cameras sell for £1400 at places like MPB/LCE etc or you like the AF selection joystick and better weather sealing.

The problem with buying a pre owned 5 or 1 series is they are used hard and even tho the body may be in good condition you cant see if its been in incremental weather with circuitry damage that worsens over time etc etc So unless its from budding amateur that has wrapped the camera in bubblewrap its whole life I would rather have a new body with the warranty. All the newer additions really make the experience of shooting with these cameras. The viewfinder II for example. When I got a 7DMKII it made the 5DMKIII feel archaic because it had a few niceties that aren't in the 5 series and the speed and lack of colour noise was also so refreshing.

For me and the varied subjects I shoot I like the weather sealed bodies and the joystick is a god send and the 70D style multiway selection wheel is not sufficient for anything other than landscape or very slow subjects. Saying that if you set your C modes with specific AF zones and set your AF-ON button to AI Servo it could make the joystick less necessary if those settings suit subjects you shoot on a daily basis.
 
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Well I don't have anything to add thats not already been said :P But I will say that the internet has definitely slowed down this last few days given the heated debate the 6D2 has caused ;D I never knew that the 6D was such a HOT camera, guess Canon knew :-*

Sooo, as many a photo site goes into melt down I look forward to trying out a 6D2 sometime soon, that is IF I can catch an owner out and about, I doubt they will be easy to find as they hide in the undergrowth for fear of public debate over the controversial MK TWO badge he or she shall have to cover up in public...

Death to Ming, long live Flash :P Peace and Love to all... ride free dudes :o ;D :D :)
 
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