Are two cameras going to replace the Canon EOS R5? [CR]

[Fischer]

The 22MP 5D Mark III was effectively the "1Ds Mark IV" without the integrated grip and larger battery. It was introduced in 2012, the same year the 18MP FF 1D X replaced the 16MP APS-H 1D Mark IV and the 21MP FF 1Ds Mark III was discontinued.

The 5D Mark II had a Rebel level AF system that was one of the most inconsistent Canon has ever put in a DSLR.

The 5D Mark III had a pro level AF system that was very close to the one in the 1D X. They even used the same part number for the PDAF sensor array, just different firmware.

At the above linked blog article Roger Cicala of lensrentals.com said about the 5D mark III:


The difference between the 5D Mark II and 5D Mark III was not resolution, it was AF and other features that make a significant difference to pro shooters.

Not sure why you are replying to my post on the MPIX difference with Cicala's evaluation of the 5DIII - but whatever...

 

[Fischer]

The 5D Mark IV didn't hit the market until a year after the 5Ds and 5Ds R.

Canon did that for a reason.

22MP to 50MP enticed a lot more to buy the 50MP camera in the first year it was offered than 30MP to 50MP would have if the 5D Mark IV had been introduced before the 5Ds /R.

In the end they were almost giving away the 5Ds for less than $1,500 because they had so much existing stock on hand.

The problem for the 5DS was that everyone who wanted max MPIX also wanted max resolution (which made perfect sense). So it was the 5DS/R that killed 5DS sales - not the 5DIV. 5DS prices were "soft" almost out of the gate while it took longer for 5DS/R prices to fall after launch than the 5DIII and 5DIV.

 

[Michael Clark]

Is it not a single chip, in a given camera? Granted, prior models were equipped with dual Digic processors, but I'm not aware of any cameras with more than one Digic X (rumors about the R5II notwithstanding).

Looks like one chip to me:
View attachment 209271

Canon Technology Explainer: What is DIGIC?

The point is, it's not the necessarily the same chip design in different models, even though all of them have DiG!C X printed on them.

 

[Michael Clark]

That is indeed what he is saying (and has said previously in other discussions) - but the question is whether it is right or not. The link Neuro provides above includes the following:

How DIGIC has improved over the years​

2002	DIGIC	Achieved signal processing with just one processor chip
2004	DIGIC II	Faster, less noise
2006	DIGIC III	Higher resolution images; supports face detection
2008	DIGIC 4	Higher resolution images; faster; detects movement
2011	DIGIC 5	Better noise reduction; better white balance
2013	DIGIC 6	Video capability (Full HD/60p)
2016	DIGIC 7	Higher resolution images; more functionality (subject tracking, detection, image stabilisation
2018	DIGIC 8	Improved shooting functionality and video capability (4K)
2020	DIGIC X	Improved video capability (>4K); faster; supports deep learning algorithm

So, the various iterations are upgraded (in title terms) every 2-3 years. And the DIGIC X was introduced in 2020, so it's not an overly long time if it is a single chip. But nothing in the article, or anything else I've read, tells me that different iterations have been released under the collective name 'DIGIC X'. Maybe they have, but I haven't seen any evidence of it.

That's a different Q from whether there are multiple chips in a given body or not.

The first 8 variations were specific chip designs. All DiG!C 6 chips were, within manufacturing tolerances, identical.

This is not the case with DiG!C X.

In this podcast Canon Europe Product Specialist Mike Burnhill mentions it in response to a question that begins at 12:10. The question asks if AF improvements in the latest EOS R cameras such as the R3 and R8 will be added to previous models, such as the R5, via firmware updates. He says this is not possible because they have different processors.

He goes on to plainly say that DiG!C X is a "family of processors" and then lists various models that have different DiG!C X processors in them.

‎Shutter Stories: A Canon Podcast on Photography, Filmmaking and Print: Mastering stills and motion with the Canon EOS R6 Mark II op Apple Podcasts

‎Programma Shutter Stories: A Canon Podcast on Photography, Filmmaking and Print, Afl Mastering stills and motion with the Canon EOS R6 Mark II - 3 nov. 2022

podcasts.apple.com

 

[Michael Clark]

That's a different Q from whether there are multiple chips in a given body or not.

Careful Jethro! Or the Most Pedant One will also accuse you of being too pedantic for daring to approach his own Pedantness!

 

[Michael Clark]

Not sure why you are replying to my post on the MPIX difference with Cicala's evaluation of the 5DIII - but whatever...

Because 5D Mark II → 5D Mark III had nothing to do with megapixels. That was 5D Mark III → 5D Mark IV.

 

[Michael Clark]

The problem for the 5DS was that everyone who wanted max MPIX also wanted max resolution (which made perfect sense). So it was the 5DS/R that killed 5DS sales - not the 5DIV. 5DS prices were "soft" almost out of the gate while it took longer for 5DS/R prices to fall after launch than the 5DIII and 5DIV.

The EOS 5Ds and 5Ds R stayed within $200-300 of each other from introduction ($3899 vs $3699) to when they were selling the leftover bodies for $1499 vs $1299. That never deviated at authorized Canon dealers in the U.S. The 5Ds and 5Ds R both dropped from $3799 and $3499, respectively, to "fire sale" prices in November of 2021. Supplies of the 5Ds R had been inconsistent due to parts shortages since fall of 2020. Both quickly sold out in late 2021. A few 5Ds bodies became available in spring of 2022 and sold for $2999→$2799→$2699→$2499 within a month. From October 2022 more 5Ds bodies were available and sold for $1299 until they ran out again around the beginning of February. Since then what few dealers who have either the 5Ds or 5Ds R have been price gouging, but Canon still lists them at $1299 and $1499 as the minimum allowable advertised price (list price) at authorized Canon dealers.

Look at their respective price histories:

Canon EOS 5DS Digital SLR (Body Only)

Amazon price tracking & price history for Canon EOS 5DS Digital SLR (Body Only)

camelcamelcamel.com

Canon EOS 5DS R Digital SLR (Body Only)

Amazon price tracking & price history for Canon EOS 5DS R Digital SLR (Body Only)

camelcamelcamel.com

Be sure to click the "3rd party new" box to see what dealers who had them when amazon was out were charging.

 

[Fischer]

The EOS 5Ds and 5Ds R stayed within $200-300 of each other from introduction ($3899 vs $3699) to when they were selling the leftover bodies for $1499 vs $1299. That never deviated at authorized Canon dealers in the U.S. The 5Ds and 5Ds R both dropped from $3799 and $3499, respectively, to "fire sale" prices in November of 2021. Supplies of the 5Ds R had been inconsistent due to parts shortages since fall of 2020. Both quickly sold out in late 2021. A few 5Ds bodies became available in spring of 2022 and sold for $2999→$2799→$2699→$2499 within a month. From October 2022 more 5Ds bodies were available and sold for $1299 until they ran out again around the beginning of February. Since then what few dealers who have either the 5Ds or 5Ds R have been price gouging, but Canon still lists them at $1299 and $1499 as the minimum allowable advertised price (list price) at authorized Canon dealers.

Look at their respective price histories:

Canon EOS 5DS Digital SLR (Body Only)

Amazon price tracking & price history for Canon EOS 5DS Digital SLR (Body Only)

camelcamelcamel.com

Canon EOS 5DS R Digital SLR (Body Only)

Amazon price tracking & price history for Canon EOS 5DS R Digital SLR (Body Only)

camelcamelcamel.com

Be sure to click the "3rd party new" box to see what dealers who had them when amazon was out were charging.

You have some funny, unrelated replies. My original post was about why the 5DIV and 5DS/R did not compete with each other - but that the real competition was between the two high MPIX offerings. It was fairly easy to pick up 5DS-models on sale or at a discount very soon after it hit the market. Not so with the 5DS/R. I was in the market for these and ended buying the 5DS/R - so I followed the prices very closely back then. 5DIV came out late 2016 and had - as your numbers show - no noticeable impact on 5DS/R-prices.

 

[Sporgon]

I’d love to know what the real ratio of 5DSr to 5DS sales was.

 

[Michael Clark]

I’d love to know what the real ratio of 5DSr to 5DS sales was.

I'd assume that the 5Ds R sold many more units than the 5Ds. I could be wrong, but I'd be very surprised if they sold more than one 5Ds for every 2-3-4 5Ds R units. But I'd also be VERY surprised if Canon made near as many 5Ds bodies as they made 5Ds R bodies. The assumption that Canon made the same number of each and expected to sell the same number of each is belied by the price difference at introduction.

Canon surely expected to sell more 5Ds R bodies than 5Ds bodies, or they wouldn't have priced The 5Ds R $200 more at introduction when the only difference was a 90° change in the orientation of the second low pass filter in the sensor stack.

If anyone thinks I'm saying they sold in near equal numbers, they're reading their own ideas into my previous comments. I'm only saying the official prices sanctioned by Canon stayed within approximately $100 of the $200 difference Canon set on the day they were introduced. They were never intended to be sold at the same price.

[*all pricing info based on Canon USA* - other world areas may have been slightly greater or slightly less when local currencies were rounded to their nearest pricing plateaus (e.g. the nearest "99" or "100" unit of currency) and fluctuating exchange rates to the yen are taken into account]

 

[Michael Clark]

You have some funny, unrelated replies. My original post was about why the 5DIV and 5DS/R did not compete with each other - but that the real competition was between the two high MPIX offerings. It was fairly easy to pick up 5DS-models on sale or at a discount very soon after it hit the market. Not so with the 5DS/R. I was in the market for these and ended buying the 5DS/R - so I followed the prices very closely back then. 5DIV came out late 2016 and had - as your numbers show - no noticeable impact on 5DS/R-prices.

Please explain to me how a reply to a specific comment about 5Ds vs 5Ds R pricing with a comment about 5Ds vs 5Ds R pricing is unrelated. I'm failing to (not) connect the dots here.

While you're at it, please explain to me how anything "killed" 5Ds sales. I think that's a totally false assumption.

If Canon had not expected to sell more 5Ds R bodies than 5Ds bodies, they wouldn't have priced them differently from the very beginning. The initial price difference reflected Canon's reasoning that the 5Ds R would be more attractive to more potential buyers than the 5Ds. Given that, why seem to assume they made equal numbers of each and expected to sell equal numbers of each?

Canon drastically reduced the price of both at the same time in late 2021, over six years after they were introduced. Of course the price of the 5Ds R, as well as the 5Ds, fell more slowly than the 5D mark III and 5D Mark IV. The 5Ds and 5Ds R were niche models, not the mainstream 5-series standard bearers. Are you also claiming that Canon expected to sell as many 5Ds and 5Ds R bodies combined as they sold 5D Mark III and 5D Mark IV bodies combined?

 

[Sporgon]

I'd assume that the 5Ds R sold many more units than the 5Ds. I could be wrong, but I'd be very surprised if they sold more than one 5Ds for every 2-3-4 5Ds R units. But I'd also be VERY surprised if Canon made near as many 5Ds bodies as they made 5Ds R bodies.

I seem to remember that when the 5DS and 5DSr cameras were introduced there was a shortage of the latter due, according to Canon “much higher demand than anticipated”. However that could be the result of a marketing strategy.
If sales of the model without the effect of the AA filter were so strong, as has been suggested many times on the net, I wonder why Canon continued with one (albeit a modified design) in their latest and greatest models, when Sony and Nikon don’t.
Here on CR I think virtually every last person who was in the market for the 50mp camera wanted the Sr, but then we know that CR doesn’t represent the majority of consumers.
Personally I suspect that after the initial pent up demand for the Sr, helped by initial lack of availability, sales of the two were pretty similar.

 

[Michael Clark]

I seem to remember that when the 5DS and 5DSr cameras were introduced there was a shortage of the latter due, according to Canon “much higher demand than anticipated”. However that could be the result of a marketing strategy.
If sales of the model without the effect of the AA filter were so strong, as has been suggested many times on the net, I wonder why Canon continued with one (albeit a modified design) in their latest and greatest models, when Sony and Nikon don’t.
Here on CR I think virtually every last person who was in the market for the 50mp camera wanted the Sr, but then we know that CR doesn’t represent the majority of consumers.
Personally I suspect that after the initial pent up demand for the Sr, helped by initial lack of availability, sales of the two were pretty similar.

You're free to guess as much as I am. But a look at the availability of each model reflected in the camel camel price histories during the 2019-2022 timeframe suggests otherwise.

 

[Jethro]

The first 8 variations were specific chip designs. All DiG!C 6 chips were, within manufacturing tolerances, identical.

This is not the case with DiG!C X.

In this podcast Canon Europe Product Specialist Mike Burnhill mentions it in response to a question that begins at 12:10. The question asks if AF improvements in the latest EOS R cameras such as the R3 and R8 will be added to previous models, such as the R5, via firmware updates. He says this is not possible because they have different processors.

He goes on to plainly say that DiG!C X is a "family of processors" and then lists various models that have different DiG!C X processors in them.

‎Shutter Stories: A Canon Podcast on Photography, Filmmaking and Print: Mastering stills and motion with the Canon EOS R6 Mark II op Apple Podcasts

‎Programma Shutter Stories: A Canon Podcast on Photography, Filmmaking and Print, Afl Mastering stills and motion with the Canon EOS R6 Mark II - 3 nov. 2022

podcasts.apple.com

Thank you - that's very helpful.

 

[ctk]

My main hope is that said release will bring down R5 prices in the same way it has done for the R6. An R5 at a price starting with a 2 is a very appealing proposition.

 

[Juppeck]

Well, i love my 5dM4 and 5Ds. I don't care about the price development or a competition about them. I use it sometimes even the R and R5 is also available.
Canon will not lower the price for the R5. They will remove them from the market. Canon is not Sony - they hold on older generation on the market for a cheaper price. I like that and i am not amoused about Canons price development. The Gear is top - sure, but the prices too. For me a hobby photographer with a less enthusiasm level, a moment to mention about a brand change.
I am sure, i will not buy again around $4000.- for a next generation of R5, even i would like the higher resolution.

 

[Michael Clark]

Well, i love my 5dM4 and 5Ds. I don't care about the price development or a competition about them. I use it sometimes even the R and R5 is also available.
Canon will not lower the price for the R5. They will remove them from the market. Canon is not Sony - they hold on older generation on the market for a cheaper price. I like that and i am not amoused about Canons price development. The Gear is top - sure, but the prices too. For me a hobby photographer with a less enthusiasm level, a moment to mention about a brand change.
I am sure, i will not buy again around $4000.- for a next generation of R5, even i would like the higher resolution.

Canon has already lowered the price of the R5 from what it was at introduction. It's almost always on an "instant rebate" program. Canon tends to significantly lower prices of existing models a few weeks or months before the newer model is introduced. In June 2019, over three years after introduction at $3,499 in September 2016 they dropped the price of the 5D Mark IV from around $3,300 to around $2700 and included a free BG-20 battery grip (that listed for $299) for several weeks. In 2020 they introduced the R5. [The original plan seemed to be to release the R5 around early May of 2020, but supply chain issues related to COVID-19 pushed that back several months.]

 

[Juppeck]

Canon has already lowered the price of the R5 from what it was at introduction. It's almost always on an "instant rebate" program. Canon tends to significantly lower prices of existing models a few weeks or months before the newer model is introduced. In June 2019, over three years after introduction at $3,499 in September 2016 they dropped the price of the 5D Mark IV from around $3,300 to around $2700 and included a free BG-20 battery grip (that listed for $299) for several weeks. In 2020 they introduced the R5. [The original plan seemed to be to release the R5 around early May of 2020, but supply chain issues related to COVID-19 pushed that back several months.]

This is just an expection carried by the hope, not more. The conditions between the 5DM4 and R5 is different. That time, Canon had plans to move to the DSLM technologie and the stock needs to be get empty. The 5DM4 was quite cheaper as the R5. In 2018 i got my cam for €2800.- / ~$3000.- and the R5 i had payed €4400.- / ~$4700.- in Feb 2022. Quite different prices and development of them.
Nikon and Sony are around €1000.- cheaper and they are also fine systems. I owen a bunch of Canon cams (80D, 5Ds, 5Dm4,R,R5) and several lenses and other pheriperal gear from Canon and Sigma. To move to an other brand is very expensive, so my decision to continue using the brand and buy an R5 instead a Sony A7R4 was guided by the usage all of them without lacks. Sony A7R4 was around €1200.- cheaper as the R5 and i could use the newer Sigma lenses, that's actual not available for R-Systems.
The entire Canon R/RF-System is quit more expensive as previously - not just the body. The next Body i will buy, will never be canon again.
Sigma starts to produce Nikon Z Lenses. I maybe move to Nikon. I like the Z6-II and compare the prices between the Z6 and R5..

 

[EricN]

Well, i love my 5dM4 and 5Ds. I don't care about the price development or a competition about them. I use it sometimes even the R and R5 is also available.
Canon will not lower the price for the R5. They will remove them from the market. Canon is not Sony - they hold on older generation on the market for a cheaper price. I like that and i am not amoused about Canons price development. The Gear is top - sure, but the prices too. For me a hobby photographer with a less enthusiasm level, a moment to mention about a brand change.
I am sure, i will not buy again around $4000.- for a next generation of R5, even i would like the higher resolution.

canon totally does lower prices. They have already had sales on R5. RP is very cheap now and as @neuroanatomist often mentions, you can get the cheapest 14mm to 400mm zoom trio on the market.

 

[EricN]

This is just an expection carried by the hope, not more. The conditions between the 5DM4 and R5 is different. That time, Canon had plans to move to the DSLM technologie and the stock needs to be get empty. The 5DM4 was quite cheaper as the R5. In 2018 i got my cam for €2800.- / ~$3000.- and the R5 i had payed €4400.- / ~$4700.- in Feb 2022. Quite different prices and development of them.
Nikon and Sony are around €1000.- cheaper and they are also fine systems. I owen a bunch of Canon cams (80D, 5Ds, 5Dm4,R,R5) and several lenses and other pheriperal gear from Canon and Sigma. To move to an other brand is very expensive, so my decision to continue using the brand and buy an R5 instead a Sony A7R4 was guided by the usage all of them without lacks. Sony A7R4 was around €1200.- cheaper as the R5 and i could use the newer Sigma lenses, that's actual not available for R-Systems.
The entire Canon R/RF-System is quit more expensive as previously - not just the body. The next Body i will buy, will never be canon again.
Sigma starts to produce Nikon Z Lenses. I maybe move to Nikon. I like the Z6-II and compare the prices between the Z6 and R5..

@Michael Clark gave you evidence showing the history of discounting and the current discounting of R5. It's not an Expectation of hope - It's already reality. If you want to go to Sony or Nikon, that's fine with me. You could even go to Fuji and get medium format.