Back & Forth, No 4K for EOS 5D Mark IV?

[coldsweat]

I applaud Canon for sticking to their principles I personally would never use my dslr for video, horses for courses but thats me.

Me too!

 

[PureClassA]

The market is showing there is a real appetite for 4k in ILC bodies. That's Canon leaving money on the table right there. Compound that with a lot of third party users adapting L glass, and that tells you even more.

Somewhere in Canon I suspect is the notion that by adopting 4k into "lower end" bodies (NOT video cameras, DSLRs) like the 5 bodies and 7 bodies, means they may cannibalize some of their C body sales. To add heft to this theory, they just release a new C body for $5500 that does 1080p, and not even in very high frame rates. While I believe most of the people using a C100 II are a different crowd than a 5 body, there are lot of people buying these ILCs now just for video. I suspect hardly anyone is buying a GH4 mainly for stills. Same for the A7s.

But even with the A7S, Sony still sells a lot of FS7 bodies. I honestly don;'t understand where Canon was thinking with the C100 II with so much other competition in that space running 4K. They are applying the same tactic to DSLRs.

The way I see it. The 5dlV needs to at least meet competing units like the GH4. Imagine, no, don't imagine. In the next three years ( 2018) there will be many new cameras (including 'most' cell phone ) will have 4K. ( 4K is four times the resolution of High Def) and now you'll have this great new camera that won't be upgraded for an additional two more years ( 2020 ), still using video an the level of the 5dll (2008).
I'm not expecting the 5dlV to be par with the C300ll, however 10 bit 4K with 12 stops of dynamic range it should have.
And if it's true that the 5dlV will accept Cfast card ( used on cameras that shoot 4K, in fact I haven't seen any still camera or 2K video camera that uses Cfast) , than Canon must be planning something special!
If you shoot video professionally and need 15 stops with XLR's , SDI's and all the other features, the C300ll will get you there. But anyone considering the 5dlV WHO ALSO may want to shoot the random run and gun video clip may not be aware yet, BUT in a year or two will really wish his DSLR had 4K.

Competing camera GH4????? are you serious? I have never seen a GH4 in any studio shoot I have been involved in or in any wedding come to think of it. I don't think Canon have much to fear there. I would say why don't you just use a GH4 but we already know why not, therefore there is no competition from that particular camera at least.
I agree that companies like Canon need to keep pushing the boundaries, but to make out that the 5D with 4K would somehow be the saviour of Canon is silly. I guarantee Canon know their market better than most people here give them credit for. The new Canon EC10 has 4K just go and buy that, is it a personal vendetta that some people have waged against Canon to push them to include 4K? I applaud Canon for sticking to their principles I personally would never use my dslr for video, horses for courses but thats me. Don't worry Canon won't get off that easy though they better bring a real improvement to the quality of stills which I'm sure they will and even then its not because I particularly need it but just to show that advances are being made.

 

[ahsanford]

I applaud Canon for sticking to their principles I personally would never use my dslr for video, horses for courses but thats me.

Me too!

I happen to be a stills only shooter who agrees with you, but "sticking to their principles"?

Would the Cinema EOS line even exist if the 5D2 wasn't such a massive hit as a video rig? What principles are they sticking to by not trying to limiting the video appeal of the 5D4?

Oh... Their principle of making as much money as possible. That one. I always forget that one.

I retract my question.

- A

 

[ahsanford]

The market is showing there is a real appetite for 4k in ILC bodies. That's Canon leaving money on the table right there. Compound that with a lot of third party users adapting L glass, and that tells you even more.

Agree with most of what you said, but the quote above re: adapting glass may be less about others offering 4K and more about the rise of mirrorless in general. Consider that many mirrorless systems:

1) Have limited/very poor glass of their own
2) Many don't use AF for video, so adapting lenses for video is a better 'fit' for the application than it is for stills
3) One of the sells of mirrorless is that you can adapt FF glass from any manufacturer due to the smaller flange distance

So I'm not convinced 4K is the driver of this so much as the growth of mirrorless is.

- A

 

[clarksbrother]

To provide a bit of clarification to those who can't understand why people are up in arms over the potential of Canon leaving out forward looking features...

Many people, myself included, purchase into a full camera ecosystem because it makes it much easier to simply stick with one rather than carry a myriad of lenses for a myriad of cameras. When we purchase into a system, its because we've been led to believe that the company will continue to innovate and respond to their customers demands and needs. When a company eschews that previously defined path to the detriment of their customers - simply switching to a different platform becomes a giant pain in the @$$. Not only is it an expensive proposition, but it's also time/labor intensive not to mention you have to refamiliarize yourself with often very different control schemas and quirks of the equipment. Add to that the betrayal of trust of why you bought in and the first place and you have the makings of a perfect storm.

Don't get me wrong, if Canon fails to deliver, I won't hesitate to switch platforms. But it wouldn't be because I want to, it will be because I have to.

 

[ReggieABrown]

If Canon don't put 4k in the 5d Mark iv I'm switching brands for sure. I'll sell my 7d mark ii, keep my 60d and use the money from the 7d2 for a blackmagic ursa mini. Don't get me wrong, I like Canon, but I don't want to invest in a camera that I'll be using for the next 5 years that only does 1080p video. And with the 5d I'm sure the stills will be awesome, I just want some awesome video along with awesome stills in one body.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Competing camera GH4????? are you serious?

Yeah, why not? I bet he was. Why would he not be? The GH4 flew off the shelves in far greater numbers than expected because of the 4k video. Or that the 5D2 also beat expectations with help from the video crowd.

I guarantee Canon know their market better than most people here give them credit for.

The same Canon that laughed at the RX100 at few years back and said that they were certain there was zero market for such a camera.... and now a couple years later after RX100 flew off the shelves they scramble out with their clone.

The new Canon EC10 has 4K just go and buy that,

Why? When for just 20% more money we could get a BM Ursa Mini that has a much larger sensor, does 4k at 60p, takes Canon EF lenses instead of being restricted to a built-in lens, I believe has RAW HD option, I think hits something like 150fps in HD, etc. etc. etc.

Also, you do realize that a 5D4 with nice 4k video means lugging around ONE item, especially nice on hikes and it means spending a large chunk of money once instead of twice?

is it a personal vendetta that some people have waged against Canon to push them to include 4K? I applaud Canon for sticking to their principles

Leaving out 4k is sticking to their principals??? What principal is that????

I personally would never use my dslr for video, horses for courses but thats me.

Fine enough, but also you do realize the 5D4 will still have some video, even if likely forgetable by today's standards so it won't be your 'pure' stills only body anyway. It will have just enough video to annoy the so-called 'purists' and not enough video to satisfy the stills/video crowd. Sounds like the best of both worlds .

Don't worry Canon won't get off that easy though they better bring a real improvement to the quality of stills which I'm sure they will and even then its not because I particularly need it but just to show that advances are being made.

I would have that they will too, but looking at the 5Ds.... it's the same old, same old, and that was supposed to be a dedicated landscape image quality camera.... unless the dual-gain read rumor is true, then it may be game on again, at least up to 18MP level.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

To provide a bit of clarification to those who can't understand why people are up in arms over the potential of Canon leaving out forward looking features...

Many people, myself included, purchase into a full camera ecosystem because it makes it much easier to simply stick with one rather than carry a myriad of lenses for a myriad of cameras. When we purchase into a system, its because we've been led to believe that the company will continue to innovate and respond to their customers demands and needs. When a company eschews that previously defined path to the detriment of their customers - simply switching to a different platform becomes a giant pain in the @$$. Not only is it an expensive proposition, but it's also time/labor intensive not to mention you have to refamiliarize yourself with often very different control schemas and quirks of the equipment. Add to that the betrayal of trust of why you bought in and the first place and you have the makings of a perfect storm.

Don't get me wrong, if Canon fails to deliver, I won't hesitate to switch platforms. But it wouldn't be because I want to, it will be because I have to.

+1

 

[gregory4000]

Those of you who use the 5D for still only do not represent the entire group who purchases this camera. No more than the sports enthusiast represents all who watches cable. I'm sure many who purchase the 5D series for a great still camera as it is, likes to tinker with video a little. Don't misconstrue this statement. I'm in no way counting the professional video photographer in this group. They would not use the 5D or GH4 even if it was the bomb. Mainly as many have told me...because you are charging a lot of money for a service and don't want to be seen using uncle Eddie camera. People expect to see professional equipment on a project site. The C300 ll may shoot better or very close video to Red Epic. But many high end professional know that their client want to see a Red, Arri, Sony F65 with $60,000 - $200,000 lens group.
The 5D is that perfect balance of serious still enthusiast with the addition of those who enjoy stills and a little video. And doesn't want to carry two cameras.
Many DSLR manufactures have lost a tremendous market share to the cell phone. I wonder if Canon saw that coming?
If Canon drops the ball on this upgrade, Believe me, Nikon, Sony, Blackmagic Design, Fujifilm.....will love to swoop up the disgruntle consumer who has felt let down.

 

[RLPhoto]

If you want 4k, don't buy the XC10, buy the Panasonic fz1000. It makes the Canon look like a shameful attempt at 4k.

 

[PureClassA]

Yup. Thank you.

Competing camera GH4????? are you serious?

Yeah, why not? I bet he was. Why would he not be? The GH4 flew off the shelves in far greater numbers than expected because of the 4k video. Or that the 5D2 also beat expectations with help from the video crowd.

I guarantee Canon know their market better than most people here give them credit for.

The same Canon that laughed at the RX100 at few years back and said that they were certain there was zero market for such a camera.... and now a couple years later after RX100 flew off the shelves they scramble out with their clone.

The new Canon EC10 has 4K just go and buy that,

Why? When for just 20% more money we could get a BM Ursa Mini that has a much larger sensor, does 4k at 60p, takes Canon EF lenses instead of being restricted to a built-in lens, I believe has RAW HD option, I think hits something like 150fps in HD, etc. etc. etc.

Also, you do realize that a 5D4 with nice 4k video means lugging around ONE item, especially nice on hikes and it means spending a large chunk of money once instead of twice?

is it a personal vendetta that some people have waged against Canon to push them to include 4K? I applaud Canon for sticking to their principles

Leaving out 4k is sticking to their principals??? What principal is that????

I personally would never use my dslr for video, horses for courses but thats me.

Fine enough, but also you do realize the 5D4 will still have some video, even if likely forgetable by today's standards so it won't be your 'pure' stills only body anyway. It will have just enough video to annoy the so-called 'purists' and not enough video to satisfy the stills/video crowd. Sounds like the best of both worlds .

Don't worry Canon won't get off that easy though they better bring a real improvement to the quality of stills which I'm sure they will and even then its not because I particularly need it but just to show that advances are being made.

I would have that they will too, but looking at the 5Ds.... it's the same old, same old, and that was supposed to be a dedicated landscape image quality camera.... unless the dual-gain read rumor is true, then it may be game on again, at least up to 18MP level.

 

[PureClassA]

This notion that Canon DSLRs "Don't need" X is folly. Canon should want to remain the market product innovator. I stress PRODUCT. Why? Because Canon has proven itself as a technological innovator, even to this day. Moreso than anyone else. Don't argue. The proof is in the patents. Bring the tech to market is a different story. There are three camps in this forum. The first is those who love Canon blindly regardless of what they produce or not produce, as it were. The second is those who are here to belittle Canon no matter what they do or don't. The third are those like myself and others saged enough to love and appreciate Canon for what is has done and is doing, but stoic enough to measure our praise and criticism in the proper proportions when Canon does something right, and when Canon fails to excel.

They need a 5 body with A7S/GH4 caliber 4k. Period. It's a market that is REAL and thriving.

 

[PureClassA]

If Canon decides to produce a 5D4 without 4k, but instead produces a SERIOUS 5DC that will, I think Canon fans will be happy campers. But to release a 5D4 without that ability and no other 5 body that will will be viewed as a tragic failure by a not insignificant portion of the market willing to spend the money on such a Canon product.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

If you want 4k, don't buy the XC10, buy the Panasonic fz1000. It makes the Canon look like a shameful attempt at 4k.

$729 and includes "You've got focus peaking for manual focus, zebra for detecting overexposure,"

two BASIC, BASIC things that Canon has decided are 'ultra high-end' features fit only for Cxx models

 

[PureClassA]

I feel to a certain degree that Canon has slowly slid into the realm of Caesar "resting on his laurels". A name doesn't carry like it used to.

If you want 4k, don't buy the XC10, buy the Panasonic fz1000. It makes the Canon look like a shameful attempt at 4k.

$729 and includes "You've got focus peaking for manual focus, zebra for detecting overexposure,"

two BASIC, BASIC things that Canon has decided are 'ultra high-end' features fit only for Cxx models

 

[tesign]

All this while all the Canon cameras I have, I had never once use Video except for "Oh, this is how you take videos" with that button. Not sure why all the asking for video features and wanting "4K" for if I'm using a DSLR camera as what it should be..a DSLR for photography.

User who are interested in Video should get one that does just seriously video and Canon has plenty to give on that with their range of video cams. I hope Canon makes a 5D FF or a 7D MK III just like Nikon did with their Nikon "DF" model..yah, no video. Maybe with video features..a few other things may be incorporated into such a "no video Canon" DSLR camera.

 

[meson1]

In this day and age, I don't think it's realistic not to include 4K on any but the most basic cameras. If Canon don't want their Pro and Prosumer still cameras to do video, they shouldn't have put it on the current and previous gen products in the first place. But now they've set a precedent, there is a consumer expectation and they have to compete with products from their main rivals Nikon and Sony.

I think the path Canon ought to take should be similar to their current offerings. Offer a basic 4K video with DPAF functionality and the mandated 30 minute recording limit, but not advanced features such as rolling shutter compensation or 60fps etc.

 

[3kramd5]

I hope Canon makes a 5D FF or a 7D MK III just like Nikon did with their Nikon "DF" model

I don't have a stake in Canon's profits, but wanting them to copy an abject failure? Kinda silly.

Maybe with video features..a few other things may be incorporated into such a "no video Canon" DSLR camera.

I don't understand. Do you mean instead of video features?

At this point, video support is largely software (notwithstanding much higher datarate video). Having it available doesn't hinder the stills performance of a camera nor prevent other things from being added (well, within the limits of the firm- and software capacities).

I don't use video on any of my SLRs. Video capability accounts for precisely 0% of my camera selection criteria. But I'll take it.

Also, perhaps if a product manager feels a given camera will be heavily used for video, improvements in the display and manual focus aids will be considered. So it's possible that inclusion of video could manifest in improvements for stills. On the flip side, they could decide that the optical view finder or shutter or mirror box or off-sensor PDAF are secondary concerns, at which point stills performance would be negatively impacted. There is no indication of that happening.

 

[mkabi]

Not sure why all the asking for video features and wanting "4K" for if I'm using a DSLR camera as what it should be..a DSLR for photography.

I always found that comment as dumb as "I'm going to use my smartphone only for phone calls."
Or "I'm going to use my computer only for research and/or accounting/budgeting."

If you don't know how to do DSLR video, just say so...
It involves a lot more than just flicking the switch and holding the camera while it films video.
Just like how photography is a lot more than taking the lens cap off and pushing the shutter button.

 

[ahsanford]

Not sure why all the asking for video features and wanting "4K" for if I'm using a DSLR camera as what it should be..a DSLR for photography.

I always found that comment as dumb as "I'm going to use my smartphone only for phone calls."
Or "I'm going to use my computer only for research and/or accounting/budgeting."

If you don't know how to do DSLR video, just say so...
It involves a lot more than just flicking the switch and holding the camera while it films video.
Just like how photography is a lot more than taking the lens cap off and pushing the shutter button.

MKabi -- We try to keep this a respectful place. This isn't a forum at DPReview or Petapixel. Please tone it down to keep the discussion focused on content instead of winding people up. Thank you in advance.

Tesign -- that's the polarizing issue here. Stills-only folks (like myself) have to accept that the days of a stills-only rig are over. So many stills-only photogs are being asked to moonlight with video either because it's harder and harder to send two people to a job if one can do both, or they voluntarily opt to learn video just as an added service to beef up their value to clients. Customers want more, so photographers have more to do... and the photo gear industry has to step up and offer those products. The 5D2 and 5D3 are stellar examples of that.

But if stills are all you want to shoot (like in my case), I have to hold out that the 5D4 will:

* Deliver on stills IQ in a considerably better way than my 5D3 (another stop or two of high ISO with similar noise, more DR, better AF, improved metering, MF lens assistance, etc.)

* Not burn my wallet for video features I do not need

...or I'm not going to buy it. We'll see how that pans out. It might turn out that a future 6D2 is the FF stills rig we need, because we *know* that rig will be nerfed for video. Hopefully it won't be nerfed for burst rate or AF too badly as well.

- A