BCN Rankings Are Out, Canon Continues to Dominate DSLRs, Further Growth in Mirrorless

[ahsanford]

I just can't imagine why Canon is above Sony in the mirrorless market.

Why not?

+1 to Neuro.

Canon simply has to show up with something 80-90% as good as the competition in the sexy horsepower specs (MP, fps, AF points, etc.), talk about working well natively with the EF portfolio, deliver Canon ergonomics and quality and their products will sell well.

Why? Give a gander to Mt Spokane's post on top of this page. If everything else is best in class other than a few lines on a spec sheet or a 10% lower DXOMark score, Canon will be printing money off of that product.

- A

 

[rrcphoto]

Are these numbers unit sales or sales revenue? If by unit sales, the number can be biased by lower end camera. I just can't imagine why Canon is above Sony in the mirrorless market.

why not? the M5 and M6 are all very credible cameras that can be used in a variety of ways for the general public. ergonomically the M5 is certainly superior to Sony's A6xxx and A5100 bodies.

 

[Cochese]

I expect this thread and these numbers to be referenced about 1 million times in response to any negative statement about Canon....especially Canon's mirrorless system....

Probably what shocks me the most is Sony. Even in compact sales...where is the RX100???? Casio beat them???

Sony is lost in the land of over-pricing out of the market.

 

[ritholtz]

I expect this thread and these numbers to be referenced about 1 million times in response to any negative statement about Canon....especially Canon's mirrorless system....

Probably what shocks me the most is Sony. Even in compact sales...where is the RX100???? Casio beat them???

Sony is lost in the land of over-pricing out of the market.

There was something going on with their NEX series. They are missing big time on their early mover advantage.

 

[unfocused]

Several good points have been made, but one that seems to get lost is how insignificant full-frame sales are.

Canon has slid into the No. 2 spot without a full-frame offering. The No. 1 spot is held by Olympus with the 4/3rds sensor.

We get awfully caught up here in the idea that somehow full-frame cameras are the end-all be-all and that Canon must offer a full-frame mirrorless to compete, when the reality is that full frame is unlikely to have much impact in the overall mirrorless marketplace.

 

[Sharlin]

Are these numbers unit sales or sales revenue? If by unit sales, the number can be biased by lower end camera.

Low-end cameras are the moneymakers. Anything above that is a nice bonus. Higher-end bodies may well have narrower profit margins. So if anything, those are unbiased numbers, compared to the implicit "only enthusiast bodies matter" bias that's prevalent among the "Canon is doomed" crowd.

 

[ritholtz]

There is nothing on DPR. It is a bad news for Sony.

 

[BroncosFan]

Dammit!!! Another year of not getting what we want!!!

 

[KeithBreazeal]

Sony- good cameras but over priced?
If Sony lowered their prices, do they have the production line capability to sustain market demand?
Sony screwed up big time in the past with Beta video. They didn't licence the format and kept the prices high, resulting in VHS machines taking over the market share. VHS sucked compared to Beta but pricing drove the market despite lower quality, resulting in the demise of consumer Beta. The broadcast market was dominated by the Beta-Cam format for many years, resulting in Sony making a good profit.

 

[okaro]

I expect this thread and these numbers to be referenced about 1 million times in response to any negative statement about Canon....especially Canon's mirrorless system....

Probably what shocks me the most is Sony. Even in compact sales...where is the RX100???? Casio beat them???

Casio has compact cameras with very wide 19-95 mm equivalence lenses. That may be a reason.

http://www.casio-intl.com/asia/en/dc/products/ex_zr5100/spec/

 

[AshtonNekolah]

Thats good news congrads canon.

 

[docsmith]

Several good points have been made, but one that seems to get lost is how insignificant full-frame sales are.

Thom Hogan has estimated that Nikon DX:FX ratio of 5:1, or 16.7% of Nikon sales were FX (2012-2015). Granted, he was arguing that the lack of D500 helped FX sales, but let's just use those numbers. Using those numbers and illustrating the impact of the massive price differences (taken from Amazon today), if all Nikon sold were the D3300 at $400 with lens and the D750 for $1,800 without lens at the 5:1 ratio Nikon's revenue would be 52.5% DX to 47.5% FX. Or, if I were to guess, if Canon's avg APS-C body was $600 and avg FF body was $3,000 and say canon is 10% FF that would still be 64% APS-C vs 36% FF from a revenue perspective. Still pretty significant.

But, also not yet mentioned, both Sigma and Tamron sell more lenses than Nikon (yikes) and are within 5% of Canon. I am definitely surprised by that.

Re-Nikon....yikes.

 

[Woody]

last year, was no such excuse for the heavyweights of mirrorless, and Canon still outgrew them all (2.8% versus Sony's 2.3 and Olympus .9%)

Canon however did miss their target, they wanted to be #1 domestically last year, and they certainly failed in that regard.

To unseat Olympus, Canon ought to release more EF-M lenses...

 

[Talys]

Several good points have been made, but one that seems to get lost is how insignificant full-frame sales are.

Canon has slid into the No. 2 spot without a full-frame offering. The No. 1 spot is held by Olympus with the 4/3rds sensor.

That's actually not reading the data correctly. In mirrorless, Canon didn't make top 3 in 2014.

In 2015, at 11.9% it made #3, edging out Panasonic, and with Sony owning more than twice as much market share.

In 2016, Canon about doubled its mirrorless sales, overtaking Sony for the #2 spot and stealing marketshare from both Olympus and Sony

In 2017, Sony and Canon grew their marketshare about equally, at the expense of non-top-3 brands. Olympus sales didn't change much.

The easiest way to visualize it is the chart on page 1 -
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=34268.msg702925#msg702925

 

[rrcphoto]

last year, was no such excuse for the heavyweights of mirrorless, and Canon still outgrew them all (2.8% versus Sony's 2.3 and Olympus .9%)

Canon however did miss their target, they wanted to be #1 domestically last year, and they certainly failed in that regard.

To unseat Olympus, Canon ought to release more EF-M lenses...

they would also have to release a few more cheap camera bodies and go real cutthroat on pricing.

The M100 and M10 may be poised for such a move - however Olympus sells the older PENs with lens kits that are hard to beat really.

Sony has been doing the same with the A5100 and A6000.

but canon certainly has to get off it's posterior with the lenses for the M - to at least give the right perception and still work on the cameras, they are good, but they certainly aren't close to best in class.

 

[neuroanatomist]

but canon certainly has to get off it's posterior with the lenses for the M - to at least give the right perception and still work on the cameras, they are good, but they certainly aren't close to best in class.

Which sells more, best in class or good and less expensive?

 

[Don Haines]

last year, was no such excuse for the heavyweights of mirrorless, and Canon still outgrew them all (2.8% versus Sony's 2.3 and Olympus .9%)

Canon however did miss their target, they wanted to be #1 domestically last year, and they certainly failed in that regard.

To unseat Olympus, Canon ought to release more EF-M lenses...

Yes! Olympus even has three F1.2 lenses! , a 300F4, and a 40-150 F2.8 lens.... 25 lenses compared to Canon’s 6!

 

[Don Haines]

but canon certainly has to get off it's posterior with the lenses for the M - to at least give the right perception and still work on the cameras, they are good, but they certainly aren't close to best in class.

Which sells more, best in class or good and less expensive?

Usually less expensive.... I understand that in Canon land the T6i outsells the 1DX2

Of course, the flagship Oly mirrorless is twice the price of the flagship Canon mirrorless, and has far better features, but I bet the Canon outsells it..... I an led to believe that the bulk of Oly sales are the very low cost Pen cameras....

 

[ahsanford]

but canon certainly has to get off it's posterior with the lenses for the M - to at least give the right perception and still work on the cameras, they are good, but they certainly aren't close to best in class.

As much as we all want EF-M to get some serious glass added to its arsenal, how EF-S has evolved in the last 10 years tells us all we need to know. Just taking a stab at making a point from the 2007-2017 EF-S lenses launched, according to a skim of EFLens.com:

General quality

"L build-quality" lenses: 0
Weathersealed lenses: I believe the answer is 0, someone please correct me if not so

Focusing

Ring USM lenses: 1
Nano USM lenses: 1
STM lenses: 7
Old micromotor (no AF tech in the name) lenses: 7

Speed

Constant aperture zooms: 0
Zooms with a long end faster than f/5.6: 0
Primes faster than f/2.8: 0

...and I think that really says it all. Canon has zoomed in on the target demo for crop cameras, and "want it not EF big" and "but it had better be fast"* is not populated by enough people, or we'd have seen a 17-55 2.8 IS USM refresh, a 10-22 USM refresh, a 15-85 refresh USM, etc. by now.

*Fuji, on the other hand, absolutely lives in this space, and look where it got them -- see how they did in the rankings above.

- A

 

[Don Haines]

but canon certainly has to get off it's posterior with the lenses for the M - to at least give the right perception and still work on the cameras, they are good, but they certainly aren't close to best in class.

As much as we all want EF-M to get some serious glass added to its arsenal, how EF-S has evolved in the last 10 years tells us all we need to know. Just taking a stab at making a point from the 2007-2017 EF-S lenses launched, according to a skim of EFLens.com:

General quality

"L build-quality" lenses: 0
Weathersealed lenses: I believe the answer is 0, someone please correct me if not so

Focusing

Ring USM lenses: 1
Nano USM lenses: 1
STM lenses: 7
Old micromotor (no AF tech in the name) lenses: 7

Speed

Constant aperture zooms: 0
Zooms with a long end faster than f/5.6: 0
Primes faster than f/2.8: 0

...and I think that really says it all. Canon has zoomed in on the target demo for crop cameras, and "want it not EF big" and "but it had better be fast"* is not populated by enough people, or we'd have seen a 17-55 2.8 IS USM refresh, a 10-22 USM refresh, a 15-85 refresh USM, etc. by now.

*Fuji, on the other hand, absolutely lives in this space, and look where it got them -- see how they did in the rankings above.

- A

Yes!

Canon has done surveys and they have access to marketing data that we forum users do not. They undoubtedly have a much better picture of the market than we do...

Personally, if I were to get an M camera, it would be for the small size and my likelihood of getting large lenses would be very small..... I probably would get the 15-45 F6.3 and the 55-200.... or go single lens with the 18-150.....

It would be nice to have one wide/fast lens and eventually they will/might come out with one.... hmmmmm.... Mitakon 35mm at F0.95? One of the second party F1.2 or F1.4s? Or that 4.5X macro lens?